Free will. What is it?

[makesends]

I never said there was no motivation.

I SAID IT WAS NOT MY WILL

Is this hard to understand?

Interestingly, here even YOU use two wills, though you deny that the one is your will, in the middle of claiming that choice is by will.

1) You get up in the morning, by choice —you will to get up.
2) You said it was not your will to get up in the morning.

1. God also has desires, and commands us according to those desires.
2. God also has a plan, and THAT plan (decree) he will accomplish, in every detail.

 

[makesends]

No my friend we can not.

The person rescued from a raging river can not boast in himself because he chose to allow the one sent to rescue him save them..

He CAN boast in the integrity of that choice. But this is not a raging river we are talking about, unless the one boasting of accepting help is drowned and dead.

We boast in the savior we trusted. Not in ourself which we did not trust. or we never would have trusted them

the thought we can boast because we gave up completely and stopped trying to save ourself (humbled ourselves) ,, Think about it

To go with your scenario, why and how did we even give up completely? You forward the notion that the poor sap about to drown was somehow able to know in sufficient degree just what predicament he was in, and to understand to enough of a degree what way the Almighty had made for him out of his predicament, and to be able to call out to help.

You have not shown how this drowning fellow was able to please God, who, God says, is not able to do so. (Romans 8)

"Think about it"

 

[Arial]

yes. this is what I have been saying all the time

You may be saying that but you are not saying what I am saying, and you are not saying what Jesus and John after him or any of the other apostles have said. And you are not saying what any other poster has said. You are giving it your own meaning by saying that faith is what causes one to be born again. Whereas the Bible tells us that until we are born again, we cannot understand and therefore believe spiritual things---such as the gospel of the person and work of Jesus.

What is being born again other than "being brought to life"?

And since your contention has always been that is why God helps us to understand; tell me where in the Bible it says that God helps us to understand so that we can choose to believe or not?

I never said any of these things

What things? And what does it have to do with this random partial quote that it is responding to? See below.

and the flesh and man's will had nothing to do with it

Jesus answered.

You do not see because you do not believe.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

The jew rejected Jesus because of their hard hearts. Thats why the saw the evidence, and ignored it.

If you respond to that from the post of mine, from the context in which it is in, instead of just giving me the meaning of the passage (something I already know) it would actually be a cogent conversation.

Because it is not true

I am born again BECAUSE I was given understanding from God. and looked to the cross in faith.. Until then. i was dead in sin.

why do you seem to be fighting against the fact a just God will keep his justice intact which means one must be justified BEFORE they can be made alive?

It is true and you have been shown again and again by various people, from the scripture, that it is true.

You were born again because you were born again from God. That is the "again" part. Before, you were just born in Adam, a sinner, and dead in your sins. There is no understanding without the new birth. You cannot even SEE the kingdom of God, and certainly not enter it. Your view has God just giving us understanding and the rest is up to us, to rebirth ourselves by our faith. Or to stay dead by refusing faith.

I don't define God's justice by what I think or feel or want and tell him how he must do things in order to maintain his being just. Justification does not make one alive. Being made alive gives faith and faith brings justification.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Who said he had no choice? I said the very opposite!

Here's the last line, to which you responded:

Like I said, not only have you not demonstrated your claim here, but you seem, (to me, granted), to be boxing the air. Nobody is saying we don't have choice.

MANY times, and consistently throughout this thread I have repeated that we do choose. We have choice. I have not said otherwise. I doubt you could find anyone on this thread saying that we do not choose.

This is what I continually respond to.

You have yet to demonstrate from Scripture, nor have you demonstrated from solid reasoning, how anything can happen apart from God establishing it.

If God established it, it is going to happen. Nothing anyone can do to stop it.

hence the person had no choice.

You can not have it both ways

And, lest you forget, you have not demonstrated your assertion that God gave man FREE will, nor that it was because he loved man that he did so.

I have come to understand in alot of these debates. no matter how much you try to show. some people will just not see it.

now if you disagree. feel free to say it as I have.

But please do not say I have not demonstrated what I believe.

I believe I have demonstrated quote well what I believe and why

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Interestingly, here even YOU use two wills, though you deny that the one is your will, in the middle of claiming that choice is by will.

1) You get up in the morning, by choice —you will to get up.
2) You said it was not your will to get up in the morning.

1. God also has desires, and commands us according to those desires.
2. God also has a plan, and THAT plan (decree) he will accomplish, in every detail.

I see no need to go on in this part of our conversation.

Your trying to say that I did something for whatever reason.

It is YOUR argument that i did what i willed to do.

I have thoroughly refuted that I wanted to do it.

yet you keep insisting if I look deeper. i will see i did will it.

I believe they call this circular reasoning.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He CAN boast in the integrity of that choice.

lol. And he would be laughed off the face of the earth. Because no one would ever even think of doing this.

But this is not a raging river we are talking about, unless the one boasting of accepting help is drowned and dead.

This is the ocean, in the middle of a hurrican

It is in the wilderness having been bitten by a poisonous snake with no cure (See Israel and Moses)

I gave two examples of how People had the ability to know. and ability to chose to recieve the one God sent, or to reject them

To go with your scenario, why and how did we even give up completely?

Because we HAVE NO HOPE..

Jesus called it becoming bankrupt.

why did the children of Israel look to the bronze serpent. they became poor in spirit. they had no hope. all hope was lost. and they knew it.

You forward the notion that the poor sap about to drown was somehow able to know in sufficient degree just what predicament he was in, and to understand to enough of a degree what way the Almighty had made for him out of his predicament, and to be able to call out to help.

I guess you have never been in a situation into where you were hopeless and had no way to save yourself.

I am sorry you do not understand. I do not know how else to help you understand..

You have not shown how this drowning fellow was able to please God,

He did not please God. nor did he please the one God sent to rescue him.

He was saved by them,

who, God says, is not able to do so. (Romans 8)

"Think about it"

I have. for many years. through many debates.

Romans 8 says there is no more condemnation. We agree.

what we disagree is how we got to that point.

if you look. we are about 90 % in agreement on this topic..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You may be saying that but you are not saying what I am saying, and you are not saying what Jesus and John after him or any of the other apostles have said. And you are not saying what any other poster has said. You are giving it your own meaning by saying that faith is what causes one to be born again. Whereas the Bible tells us that until we are born again, we cannot understand and therefore believe spiritual things---such as the gospel of the person and work of Jesus.

What is being born again other than "being brought to life"?

And since your contention has always been that is why God helps us to understand; tell me where in the Bible it says that God helps us to understand so that we can choose to believe or not?

What things? And what does it have to do with this random partial quote that it is responding to? See below.


If you respond to that from the post of mine, from the context in which it is in, instead of just giving me the meaning of the passage (something I already know) it would actually be a cogent conversation.

It is true and you have been shown again and again by various people, from the scripture, that it is true.

You were born again because you were born again from God. That is the "again" part. Before, you were just born in Adam, a sinner, and dead in your sins. There is no understanding without the new birth. You cannot even SEE the kingdom of God, and certainly not enter it. Your view has God just giving us understanding and the rest is up to us, to rebirth ourselves by our faith. Or to stay dead by refusing faith.

I don't define God's justice by what I think or feel or want and tell him how he must do things in order to maintain his being just. Justification does not make one alive. Being made alive gives faith and faith brings justification.

Moving on.

I do not see any need to beat a dead horse.

You seem to love to tell me what i do or do not do.

You are not me.

Your right, You do not define Gods justice, he does,

His justice demanded a payment for sin (death)

Until his justice is satisfied. You will remain dead in your sin.

it does not matter what you want or what I want. it matters what a perfect judge would do.

He will NOT forgive you of those sins, without a payment. And he will not force that payment on you. As a God of love. he wants you to recieve it. in faith.

Do this, you will live

refuse to do it. you will continue to die until your dead.

 

[makesends]

You dealt with it to satisfy your own reasoning.

It does not satisfy mine.

when you say God did it without our consent or permission. your in essence saying God forced.

I know you do not like that term. but I see it no other way

I disagree,, WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT....

If I did anything to you without your consent to make you do something, I in essence have forced you to do it

Thats the difference.

I was not a newborn when I came to Christ. I knew I existed..

When one is born of God, they have become a new creature. You may still have memories of your old self, and a stubborn Klingon called the Old Man, but that is where you came from, not what you are anymore.

But, again, I'm not saying that you don't accept Christ, or 'receive him' as the NT puts it, nor give up, nor submit, as a choice of the will, but that when you do so it is because your will has been enabled to do so. You are no longer at enmity with God, after you have been changed from death to life.


Now, I think it is time to dispose of the notion that the will's decision to accept Christ is not a work, of the sort denied by Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 1:13. You yourself claim that the choice to savingly accept Christ is one of the will. Do you deny that you do something in choosing to yield to Christ? Of course you don't, but for the sake of the argument.

 

[makesends]

I will hold on just as fast if I was rescued

Huh? I just said that! You were rescued, AND RESUSCITATED. Now you can hold on.

again, The people of Israel were dead. the serpents poison was flowing through them. Yet they still lived and breathed. they still had to chose to trust what God sent to save them from death, or in unbelief reject this salvation.

Reference the situation you invoke here as seminal.

I was the same way, still living, still breathing, still able to chose.. But dead spiritually. the serpents poison was in me, and without rescue I would die. so I could just like them, Look in faith To Gods provision, or continue in unbelief and refuse to look.

Same for you..

FWIW, no, I can't, even enabled, continue to hold fast to him, without HIM holding me to himself.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When one is born of God, they have become a new creature.

No one is arguing this point

You may still have memories of your old self, and a stubborn Klingon called the Old Man, but that is where you came from, not what you are anymore.

Again,. No one is arguing this point for or against it, we ageree

But, again, I'm not saying that you don't accept Christ, or 'receive him' as the NT puts it, nor give up, nor submit, as a choice of the will, but that when you do so it is because your will has been enabled to do so.

Now we are back to where we started.

You are no longer at enmity with God, after you have been changed from death to life.

I still am though in your scenario. Because the penalty of sin has not yet been paid for. I am not justified yet.. That does not happen until AFTER I receive him

But as many as have received him, TO THEM....

Now, I think it is time to dispose of the notion that the will's decision to accept Christ is not a work, of the sort denied by Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 1:13. You yourself claim that the choice to savingly accept Christ is one of the will. Do you deny that you do something in choosing to yield to Christ? Of course you don't, but for the sake of the argument.

Not sure what your trying to say here.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Huh? I just said that! You were rescued, AND RESUSCITATED. Now you can hold on.

But I do not have to hold on. God holds on to me

Reference the situation you invoke here as seminal.

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Numb 21:
5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul ]loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

what happened if they did not look?

They died

FWIW, no, I can't, even enabled, continue to hold fast to him, without HIM holding me to himself.

Which is what I said above

he reaches out his hand, If you take his hand, he will never let you go.

But you must take his hand.

 

[Arial]

Moving on.

I do not see any need to beat a dead horse.

You seem to love to tell me what i do or do not do.

You are not me.

Your right, You do not define Gods justice, he does,

His justice demanded a payment for sin (death)

Until his justice is satisfied. You will remain dead in your sin.

it does not matter what you want or what I want. it matters what a perfect judge would do.

He will NOT forgive you of those sins, without a payment. And he will not force that payment on you. As a God of love. he wants you to recieve it. in faith.

Do this, you will live

refuse to do it. you will continue to die until your dead.

Completely off the topic of our conversation.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Calvinists don't say Adam didn't have a Free Will choice; Hyper Calvinists and Provisionists say that about Calvinism. Adam's Choice is like that Free Will to pull off the Frontage Road at the Liquor Store; God Meant it for Good but you Meant it for Evil. Adam Meant his Original Sin for Evil; it's the Meaning in an Act that determines if it's a Sin or not...

Let me cut to the chase and use my argument for a Free Will which is Bound. According to the Chalcedonian Creed, the Deity and Humanity of Jesus Christ are inseparable and Unmixed. This means the Will of the Logos of God and Jesus the son of Mary are unmixed in his Person. Jesus prayed, "Not my Will but your Will be done ". He was speaking of God's Will being done on Earth as in Heaven; despite him wanting the Cup to pass. This is a Biblical example of God's Will and Christ's Human Will flowing without mixing. Just as God's Will and your Will flow Concurrently without mixing. Just like when God's Will and Joseph's brother’s Wills flowed together without mixing...

The Westminster Confession of Faith says it's established that our Will is at Liberty as a Secondary Causation. Look at this as God's Will being an Interstate (first Cause) and your Will being that Frontage Road (second cause). You are as Free to go up and down that Frontage Road as much as you want; but you're never Free to take God's Interstate. To do so, would make you God...

I don't Mind listening to your position. I, like you, am just stating my position...

Excellent.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I do not need to address how he made us alive. I think we both agree.

I also already stated that John 3: 1 - 9 is Jesus stating

1. What must be done (we must be born again)
2. What It means (that which is born of flesh is flesh. that which is born again spiritually is spirit
3. How it is done.

It does not matter if we do not understand WHEN it is done and WHY it is done.



Not seeing it

First hear and believe, then new life. and this new life is eternal

It comes BECAUSE of this faith in what we heard.. the spirit gives life. the words I speak are spirit and they are life

Thank you for proving my point earlier when I said people claim faith is a work trying to earn salvation. I was told no one said this

This makes no sense. forgive me. I do not know what you mean here

I can't boast because I became like the tax collector. You can not boast of the fact you accepted a gift. You boast because you earned the gift. or merited the gift.


John 3 is a command

I never said it did

Yes he should have, But as Jesus told him, he did not. Nor did he understand when a person is born again, what must I do

WHAT???

John 3 is a standalone passage with multiple facets.

John 3: 3 is Jesus giving us a command one must be born again, we already agree on that.. so what else must I do?

do please tell where I misrepresented your view or misunderstood it about what being born again is, or the command?

The order of salvation is simple

Believe in the name of the lord Jesus christ and you will be saved, you and your household.



You did stop it short. Because you explain WHAT it is. You explain HOW it is, But you do not explant WHEN it is.

We agree what and how. we do not agree when.

You think it is before I think it is after (faith)

Please tell me where I got it wrong

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

1. Who are them? Those who have reci9eved him (but as many)
2. To THEM, he gave the right (power) to become children of God
3. Even to those who believe in his name (which is why they received him

I will gladly change my view if you show my mistake.

You forgot verse 13....

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[makesends]

I see no need to go on in this part of our conversation.

Your trying to say that I did something for whatever reason.

It is YOUR argument that i did what i willed to do.

I have thoroughly refuted that I wanted to do it.

yet you keep insisting if I look deeper. i will see i did will it.

I believe they call this circular reasoning.

I realize that I invoked rule 4.4 before reading this. Please desist writing until the matter of 4.4 is resolved.

 

[makesends]

But I do not have to hold on. God holds on to me


John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Numb 21:
5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul ]loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

what happened if they did not look?

They died

Which is what I said above

he reaches out his hand, If you take his hand, he will never let you go.

But you must take his hand.

I realize that I invoked rule 4.4 before reading this. Nevertheless, we must satisfy a resolution of my claim, pursuant to rule 4.4, that you posted irrelevance, before proceeding with argument. Please desist writing to me in this thread until the matter of 4.4 is resolved.

 

[makesends]

Which is what I said above

he reaches out his hand, If you take his hand, he will never let you go.

But you must take his hand.

I realize that I invoked rule 4.4 before reading this. Nevertheless, we must satisfy a resolution of my claim, pursuant to rule 4.4, that you posted irrelevance, before proceeding with argument. Please desist writing to me in this thread until the matter of 4.4 is resolved.

 

[makesends]

No one is arguing this point

Again,. No one is arguing this point for or against it, we ageree

Now we are back to where we started.



I still am though in your scenario. Because the penalty of sin has not yet been paid for. I am not justified yet.. That does not happen until AFTER I receive him

But as many as have received him, TO THEM....

Not sure what your trying to say here.

I realize that I invoked rule 4.4 before reading this. Nevertheless, we must satisfy a resolution of my claim, pursuant to rule 4.4, that you posted irrelevance, before proceeding with argument. Please desist writing to me in this thread until the matter of 4.4 is resolved.

 

[makesends]

lol. And he would be laughed off the face of the earth. Because no one would ever even think of doing this.

This is the ocean, in the middle of a hurrican

It is in the wilderness having been bitten by a poisonous snake with no cure (See Israel and Moses)

I gave two examples of how People had the ability to know. and ability to chose to recieve the one God sent, or to reject them



Because we HAVE NO HOPE..

Jesus called it becoming bankrupt.

why did the children of Israel look to the bronze serpent. they became poor in spirit. they had no hope. all hope was lost. and they knew it.




I guess you have never been in a situation into where you were hopeless and had no way to save yourself.

I am sorry you do not understand. I do not know how else to help you understand..

He did not please God. nor did he please the one God sent to rescue him.

He was saved by them,



I have. for many years. through many debates.

Romans 8 says there is no more condemnation. We agree.

what we disagree is how we got to that point.

if you look. we are about 90 % in agreement on this topic..

I realize that I invoked rule 4.4 before reading this. Nevertheless, we must satisfy a resolution of my claim, pursuant to rule 4.4, that you posted irrelevance, before proceeding with argument. Please desist writing to me in this thread until the matter of 4.4 is resolved.

 

[makesends]

This is what I continually respond to.

You have yet to demonstrate from Scripture, nor have you demonstrated from solid reasoning, how anything can happen apart from God establishing it.

If God established it, it is going to happen. Nothing anyone can do to stop it.

hence the person had no choice.

You can not have it both ways


I have come to understand in alot of these debates. no matter how much you try to show. some people will just not see it.

now if you disagree. feel free to say it as I have.

But please do not say I have not demonstrated what I believe.

I believe I have demonstrated quote well what I believe and why

I realize that I invoked rule 4.4 before reading this. Nevertheless, we must satisfy a resolution of my claim, pursuant to rule 4.4, that you posted irrelevance, before proceeding with argument. Please desist writing to me in this thread until the matter of 4.4 is resolved.