Free will. What is it?

[DialecticSkeptic]

lol.. Ok..

That is not an answer to any of the three questions I asked you.

1. Is there anything in scripture that says God can't or won't control or overrule a person's will?
​

If not, then:

2. Is there anything in scripture that says God can control or overrule a person's will?
​

The answer to the second question, of course, is yes—which has significant implications for this discussion:

3. If God can control or overrule the human will, is it free? <--- This one needs an answer the most.
​

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

So, let me get this straight. God is omniscient. And he is the first. So, any evil would be caused by him, being the first cause?

One is treading on very, very dangerous ground when one calls anything God does evil. It is better to say "all things" are ultimately caused by him and not attach the label evil to anything he caused.

You need to keep in mind that according to Reformed theology—which many here are arguing for—there are two causes at a minimum for every event, God (ultimate cause) and man (proximate cause). A thought, word, or deed is evil only for proximate causes whom God has determined to judge. It is never evil for the ultimate cause (God), who acts at the level of being itself and can't sin (1 John 1:5; 2 Tim 2:13).

Consider as an example Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery. What they did was plainly evil (Gen 42:22; cf. 1 Tim 1:10). Yet we also know that God was ultimately the cause, for scripture tells us so (Gen 45:8). One event. Two causes, a proximate cause and an ultimate cause. And it was evil for the former, but not the latter.

Yes, that event was caused by God whose intentions were righteous. It was also caused by Joseph's brothers whose intentions were evil (Gen 50:20). If you're talking about what they did, call it evil. If you're talking about what God did, don't call it evil.

When you say God did it without our consent or permission. you're essentially saying God forced.

No, he is not. The word "forced" implies resistance (i.e., against their will). When God regenerates a heart, there is no resistance (irresistible grace).

The opposite of consent is resist, oppose, refuse, object. None of that happens.

As you astutely observed, "No matter how much you try to show, some people will just not see it."

Now, if God was the cause of this, and Adam had no choice in the matter, ...

The view you need to deal with is God was the cause of this AND Adam had (and made) a choice in the matter.

Again, an ordained choice is still a choice.

If God established it, it is going to happen. Nothing anyone can do to stop it.

Hence, the person had no choice.

False. He had two choices, either A or B. Since he preferred B, he chose B—

—just as God had ordained before the creation of the world.

It is YOUR argument that I did what I willed to do.

I have thoroughly refuted that I wanted to do it.

Yet, you keep insisting that if I look deeper I will see that I did will it.

I believe they call this circular reasoning.

It is not circular reasoning because "want" and "will" are two different things, as evidenced by the fact that people can will to do something they don't want to do (e.g., wash the dishes).

I did the will of God

And there's the boasting (claiming personal credit).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is not an answer to any of the three questions I asked you.

​

1. Is there anything in scripture that says God can't or won't control or overrule a person's will?​

​

If not, then:

​

2. Is there anything in scripture that says God can control or overrule a person's will?​

​

The answer to the second question, of course, is yes—which has significant implications for this discussion:

​

3. If God can control or overrule the human will, is it free? <--- This one needs an answer the most.​

​

I always look at it this way

just because something CAN happen. does not mean it will.

I personally do not think God has ever overruled someone's free will. I think Jonah is the best answer.

I think God strengthens a persons will (hardens their heart) to lead them to freely do what he wants. or like jonah, leads them on the way.

But something tells me we will not agree on this. so....

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

One is treading on very, very dangerous ground when one calls anything God does evil. It is better to say "all things" are ultimately caused by him and not attach the label evil to anything he caused.

But if you say all things are ultimately caused by him, you incvlude evil.

I believe in calling a stone a stone. do not change the wording just to make it sound better

You need to keep in mind that according to Reformed theology—which many here are arguing for—there are two causes at a minimum for every event, God (ultimate cause) and man (proximate cause). A thought, word, or deed is evil only for proximate causes whom God has determined to judge. It is never evil for the ultimate cause (God), who acts at the level of being itself and can't sin (1 John 1:5; 2 Tim 2:13).

So its like I said, God ultimately Caused Adam to fall. Causing the fall of mankind. and all the evil we have witnessed for over 6,000 years.

Consider as an example Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery. What they did was plainly evil (Gen 42:22; cf. 1 Tim 1:10). Yet we also know that God was ultimately the cause, for scripture tells us so (Gen 45:8). One event. Two causes, a proximate cause and an ultimate cause. And it was evil for the former, but not the latter.

Did God cause it. Or did God make what man chose to do0 and turn it into something good?

Did God force those boys to do what they did. or did God use their free will, and not prevent it. because he could use it for something good.

Yes, that event was caused by God whose intentions were righteous. It was also caused by Joseph's brothers whose intentions were evil (Gen 50:20). If you're talking about what they did, call it evil. If you're talking about what God did, don't call it evil.

God did not stop them.

If you call what they did Evil. God caused their evil.

No, he is not. The word "forced" implies resistance (i.e., against their will). When God regenerates a heart, there is no resistance (irresistible grace).

I do not agree with irresistible grace. people resist it every day. Israel resisted it most of their life as a nation. no matter how often God pleaded with them to repent

The opposite of consent is resist, oppose, refuse, object. None of that happens.

There is no choice for them to even try to refuse or resist.

come on..

As you astutely observed, "No matter how much you try to show, some people will just not see it."

Yes. I have seen this sadly on many topics in many chatrooms. It is sad..

The view you need to deal with is God was the cause of this AND Adam had (and made) a choice in the matter.

if God caused it. God is the author of Evil. And he caused the fall.

That's the view you need to deal with,

You can not say God caused it. then say God did not cause it.

Again, an ordained choice is still a choice.

Actually no. If it is ordained. it is set in stone. there is no choice.

You can not say something is set in stone, and then say it was choice.

False. He had two choices, either A or B. Since he preferred B, he chose B—

—just as God had ordained before the creation of the world.

Then he had no choice.

lol.. I am sorry my friend. i am really trying. But you should try to look at it as I see it.

You say God ordained it. hence it was going to happen. but the person had a choice.

Now if you say God foreknew it would happen. and adjusted. well then we can agree.

It is not circular reasoning because "want" and "will" are two different things, as evidenced by the fact that people can will to do something they don't want to do (e.g., wash the dishes).

But I did not will to do the dishes.

we do not see will the same. I think if this thread has done one thing it is to show we have differing definitions of will

And there's the boasting (claiming personal credit).

Yeah, Boasting in Christ. who saved me.

Again, A person can not boast in giving it all to the rescuer. People would laugh them out of the building if they even attempted to take credit for saving themselves.

This is the will of God

John 6: 3 ;For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 ;This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

its amazing we agree on point 1. But disagree on point 2. You think that is me boasting

John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,

Again, I received him, hence he gave me the right (power)_ to become Gods child.

I guess that is me boasting

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Just because something CAN happen does not mean it will.

Agreed. So, now, answer at least question 3.

I personally do not think God has ever overruled someone's free will.

He has, for scripture tells us. We'll get to that in a moment.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Agreed. So, now, answer at least question 3.

I believe I did.

He has, for scripture tells us. We'll get to that in a moment.

So who did God force to do something against his or her will? or what he knew would be their will

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I believe I did.

You did not. Please do.

If God CAN control or overrule the human will, is it free?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You did not. Please do.

If God CAN control or overrule the human will, is it free?

I do not believe God has overruled free will and forced anyone to do anything.

I know he has directed people. Put roadblocks in their way. Got them to do things they wanted to to begin with by hardening (strengthening) their heart.

so there is no possible answer for me to give..

Why is it people think they can dictate a discussion. and tell a person they have not done something?

if your trying to get me to change my view about free will with this line of questioning, ....

 

[Arial]

But if you say all things are ultimately caused by him, you incvlude evil.

Evil isn't a thing. It is the absence of good. Evil is not caused. It is an act of thought. Evil acts are done, not caused. Evil acts come from the desires of people who have evil thoughts and desires in them----thanks to Adam and that tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL----not from God.

 

[Eleanor]

I was alive, as were you when you came to christ.

Precisely! . . .by the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8),

with which you had absolutely nothing to do (just as you had nothing to do with your physical birth). . .that's what "sovereign" (Jn 3:6-8) means.

 

[Arial]

So its like I said, God ultimately Caused Adam to fall. Causing the fall of mankind. and all the evil we have witnessed for over 6,000 years.

He did not cause him to fall, he intended for him to. God made the fall possible so his intentions would be possible. So the real question is, "For what purpose did God intend that Adam would fall?" If you have read the full story of redemption, paid close attention all along the way, read the conclusion as it is shown in many places throughout the scriptures, no more strikingly than in Is. 11 and Rev 21, then you have your answer already.

Hint: He is destroying forever the source of evil and all who follow him instead of Christ.

Did God cause it. Or did God make what man chose to do0 and turn it into something good?

Did God force those boys to do what they did. or did God use their free will, and not prevent it. because he could use it for something good.

Does God, the all powerful, self existent, eternal, creator of everything, governor over all his creation (as the Bible clearly tells us he is), does he bring about his eternal plan by working from contingencies, subject to corrupt humanity?

I do not agree with irresistible grace. people resist it every day. Israel resisted it most of their life as a nation. no matter how often God pleaded with them to repent

They were resisting God and following their own desires, not his grace. His grace remained as we see in his patience and the worship system of Israel, the Year of Atonement. In his not utterly abandoning them as his people. But just to be clear, Irresistible Grace pertains to salvation in Christ in placing one in him through the gift of faith. That grace does what it is sent to do and none of whom it falls upon resist it, nor can they. They can't because it is a work done IN them by God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Precisely! . . .by the sovereign new birth of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8),

Actually. No I was not alive until John 3: 10 - 18

with which you had absolutely nothing to do. . .that's what "sovereign" (Jn 3:6-8) means.

Your right I had nothing to do with it.

God offered it. All I did was not reject it (basically nothing) because in faith I trusted him

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He did not cause him to fall, he intended for him to.

then he caused him.

God made the fall possible so his intentions would be possible.

How do you know his intention was not to just love his creation for all eternity?

But his creation decided to put a wrinkle in it

So the real question is, "For what purpose did God intend that Adam would fall?"

None God did not intend him to fall. Adam chose that all on his own

If you have read the full story of redemption, paid close attention all along the way, read the conclusion as it is shown in many places throughout the scriptures, no more strikingly than in Is. 11 and Rev 21, then you have your answer already.
Hint: He is destroying forever the source of evil and all who follow him instead of Christ.

There was no evil in the world before Adam sinned. So why would he want to destroy it?

Does God, the all powerful, self existent, eternal, creator of everything, governor over all his creation (as the Bible clearly tells us he is), does he bring about his eternal plan by working from contingencies, subject to corrupt humanity?

Of course.

it does not mean he caused the evil that is in the world.

They were resisting God and following their own desires, not his grace. His grace remained as we see in his patience and the worship system of Israel, the Year of Atonement. In his not utterly abandoning them as his people. But just to be clear, Irresistible Grace pertains to salvation in Christ in placing one in him through the gift of faith. That grace does what it is sent to do and none of whom it falls upon resist it, nor can they. They can't because it is a work done IN them by God.

Grace is grace.

if it was irresistible. everyone would get saved. the fact Israel and many others have resisted it. proves it was not irresistible

 

[Arial]

then he caused him.

No he didn't. You simply can't or won't follow the logic.

You know evil is in the world right? You know Satan is evil right? You should know by now, having been told, that evil is not a creation or a thing but simply the absence of good (just as darkness is the absence of light). There is no good in Satan. There is both good and evil in humans.

So you are going to have to find another way to "defend" God who needs no defending and trying to do so would be lack of fear of the Lord or a gross misunderstanding of who he is. Evil exists. Is it better to say that he is powerless or unwilling to do anything about it, than to say he didn't cause it?

In fact, he didn't cause it, he uses it for his ultimate purpose of crushing the head of the source who fills the world and the hearts of men through sinful desires and for them. Adam and Eve opened that gate. They are responsible for it and so are we. God made man a responsible creature, not a free creature. He gave humanity through Adam the responsibility of caring for and tending to the whole creation and to one another according to his image that they bore. Adam failed. We fail. The absence of pure uncorrupted good.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No he didn't. You simply can't or won't follow the logic.

Sorry,

I do not follow YOUR logic.

Please do not insult me by saying I do not follow Logic. What I follow is completely logical to me. we should not talk to people this way

You know evil is in the world right? You know Satan is evil right? You should know by now, having been told, that evil is not a creation or a thing but simply the absence of good (just as darkness is the absence of light). There is no good in Satan. There is both good and evil in humans.

There was Good in satan at one time (lucifer) he had everything just like adam did (only 1000 times more) yet he did the same thing Adam did. he chose to follow his own will and not Gods.

So you are going to have to find another way to "defend" God who needs no defending and trying to do so would be lack of fear of the Lord or a gross misunderstanding of who he is.

Actually I am trying to defend who he is..

Evil exists. Is it better to say that he is powerless or unwilling to do anything about it, than to say he didn't cause it?

He did not cause it, He allowed it..

see the difference?

In fact, he didn't cause it, he uses it for his ultimate purpose of crushing the head of the source who fills the world and the hearts of men through sinful desires and for them. Adam and Eve opened that gate. They are responsible for it and so are we. God made man a responsible creature, not a free creature. He gave humanity through Adam the responsibility of caring for and tending to the whole creation and to one another according to his image that they bore. Adam failed. We fail. The absence of pure uncorrupted good.

from what I read of what you said, He caused it..

Until you can try to show me different, unless you change what you are trying to tell me, I can not see it any other way

 

[Arial]

How do you know his intention was not to just love his creation for all eternity?

He does love his creation for all eternity. He is making it possible by restoring it through the redemption of men, in Christ. That does not mean he loves evil or evil deeds and will not judge them before that restoration. It means they must be judged and destroyed.

But his creation decided to put a wrinkle in it

Outside of his omniscience and omnipotence?

None God did not intend him to fall. Adam chose that all on his own

So Adam was outside of God's control? Is that when, iyo, God began the plan of redemption and before there was no plan and he came up with plan B? Do you think "eternal" is bound by time? That omniscience is bound by time?

There was no evil in the world before Adam sinned. So why would he want to destroy it?

Not in the earth but Satan already existed and was in fact in the Garden. So you are reaching to the place where David was humble enough to recognize,( Psalm 139:1-6) and stating what you cannot know as truth. If we look at the end result in the Bible, we see that evil is not just being destroyed from the earth and mankind, but destroyed, period.

Of course.

it does not mean he caused the evil that is in the world.

Of course God works his plan according to contingencies----the choices man makes? Wouldn't that be utter chaos all the time? Think about it? You have an upside down and pretty empty portrayal of God. You have God being subject to the whims an desires of man, and having to work around them all the time.

Grace is grace.

Obviously. What is the relevance to my post. Is grace the definition of grace?

if it was irresistible. everyone would get saved. the fact Israel and many others have resisted it. proves it was not irresistible

I said three things in the post this is responding to.
1. That Israel was not resisting grace. They were resisting God.
2. That his grace still remained. And I showed through illustration that grace remained.
3. That Irresistible Grace pertained to one grace---that of salvation. "By grace you are saved, through faith, and that is a gift from God.

So why don't you address my post instead of just repeating exactly what I was addressing that you said?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He does love his creation for all eternity. He is making it possible by restoring it through the redemption of men, in Christ. That does not mean he loves evil or evil deeds and will not judge them before that restoration. It means they must be judged and destroyed.

But if he ordained Adam to sin and cause the fall of mankind.

then he instituted it.

yes he did redeem mankind.. He was the propitiation of our sins, not only of ours but of the whole world. 1 John 2: 2

Outside of his omniscience and omnipotence?

No, he knew. it does not mean he ordained or caused it.

So Adam was outside of God's control?

this is very troubling you would even ask

Is that when, iyo, God began the plan of redemption and before there was no plan and he came up with plan B? Do you think "eternal" is bound by time? That omniscience is bound by time?

Not in the earth but Satan already existed and was in fact in the Garden. So you are reaching to the place where David was humble enough to recognize,( Psalm 139:1-6) and stating what you cannot know as truth. If we look at the end result in the Bible, we see that evil is not just being destroyed from the earth and mankind, but destroyed, period.

Of course God works his plan according to contingencies----the choices man makes? Wouldn't that be utter chaos all the time? Think about it? You have an upside down and pretty empty portrayal of God. You have God being subject to the whims an desires of man, and having to work around them all the time.

Obviously. What is the relevance to my post. Is grace the definition of grace?

I said three things in the post this is responding to.
1. That Israel was not resisting grace. They were resisting God.
2. That his grace still remained. And I showed through illustration that grace remained.
3. That Irresistible Grace pertained to one grace---that of salvation. "By grace you are saved, through faith, and that is a gift from God.

So why don't you address my post instead of just repeating exactly what I was addressing that you said?

point 1. You are wrong. they resisted grace, Because it is by the grace of God God would even come to them.
Point 2. It always remains. the question is, the person offered grace, what will you do with it?
3. Grace is not irresistable. it is not in the bible

I would recommend just using the term grace.. It will lead to alot less confusion

 

[makesends]

I would recommend just using the term grace.. It will lead to alot less confusion

Maybe, then we could also drop the term, "free", from freewill, since freewill is only used in the Bible concerning voluntary deeds, as opposed to required deeds. (For example, voluntary offerings as opposed to required offerings.)

But Irresistible Grace refers only to Regeneration.

I always look at it this way

just because something CAN happen. does not mean it will.

I personally do not think God has ever overruled someone's free will. I think Jonah is the best answer.

I think God strengthens a persons will (hardens their heart) to lead them to freely do what he wants. or like jonah, leads them on the way.

But something tells me we will not agree on this. so....

This is one of the issues at the core of our disagreements, though it is not itself THE core of it.

You use these commonly used human terms, human concepts:
1. What can happen
2. God overruling someone's will
3. A person's will 'is what it is', and God works with and around it.

The Calvinistic person (whether actually a Calvinist or Reformed—and I claim neither) works from:
3. God is what he is, default fact (sovereign), and he is thus the basis by which all other fact and principle exists.
2. God needn't overrule anyone's will. He is not about them, he does not exist for them. Instead, they are about him, no matter what they think and do. They exist and do what they do for HIS purposes, whether they mean to or not.
1. Nothing can happen except by God's purposes. The notion of "possibility" is only about the future, and it is only our human notion. God already has that in hand. Only one thing is possible in any single consideration.

Notice that our options from which to choose are only that—options from which to choose. In fact, only the one chosen ever happens. We have no evidence that anything else 'could have been' chosen. Even in the Bible references to the hypothetical —(for eg, "If you had done (chosen, wanted, obeyed etc) 'this or that', then I would have done (been, said, rewarded etc) 'something or other'...")— do not indicate that anything could have happened, but to demonstrate various abstracts, such as what should have been chosen, or principles concerning what results follow which choices, and so on.

To be fair in representing the Reformed and Calvinist, not all of them put things the way I have there. That is my own way of saying it, but that is the basic difference.

The CORE of the difference between what are commonly called 'freewillers' and Calvinist/Reformed is in Point-of-View: Humano-centrism vs God-centrism, (to some degree dealt with in points #3 above).

 

[Eleanor]

Actually. No I was not alive until John 3: 10 - 18

And you didn't make yourself alive at Jn 3:3-8.

The new birth is sovereign (Jn 3:6-8), just as you had nothing to do with your natural birth, so you have nothing to do with your spiritual birth, or anything else spiritual, because you are spiritually dead until the sovereign new birth into eternal life by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) alone.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Maybe, then we could also drop the term, "free", from freewill, since freewill is only used in the Bible concerning voluntary deeds, as opposed to required deeds.

again I guess it depends on context.. I like the term freedom more than free

(For example, voluntary offerings as opposed to required offerings.)

But Irresistible Grace refers only to Regeneration.

Again, if it was irresistible. everyone would be saved.

thats why I would rather just say Grace (unmerited favor) the grace of God that brings salvation to the world

This is one of the issues at the core of our disagreements, though it is not itself THE core of it.

You use these commonly used human terms, human concepts:
1. What can happen
2. God overruling someone's will
3. A person's will 'is what it is', and God works with and around it.

The Calvinistic person (whether actually a Calvinist or Reformed—and I claim neither) works from:
3. God is what he is, default fact (sovereign), and he is thus the basis by which all other fact and principle exists.
2. God needn't overrule anyone's will. He is not about them, he does not exist for them. Instead, they are about him, no matter what they think and do. They exist and do what they do for HIS purposes, whether they mean to or not.
1. Nothing can happen except by God's purposes. The notion of "possibility" is only about the future, and it is only our human notion. God already has that in hand. Only one thing is possible in any single consideration.

Notice that our options from which to choose are only that— only the one chosen ever happens. We have no evidence that anything else 'could have been' chosen. Even in the Bible references to the hypothetical —"If you had done (chosen, wanted, obeyed etc) 'this or that', then I would have done (been, said, rewarded etc) 'something or other'..."— do not indicate that anything could have happened, but to demonstrate various abstracts, such as what should have been chosen, or principles concerning what results follow which choices, and so on.

To be fair in representing the Reformed and Calvinist, not all of them put things the way I have there. That is my own way of saying it, but that is the basic difference.

The CORE of the difference between what are commonly called 'freewillers' and Calvinist/Reformed is in Point-of-View: Humano-centrism vs God-centrism, (to some degree dealt with in points #3 above).

Maybe, then we could also drop the term, "free", from freewill, since freewill is only used in the Bible concerning voluntary deeds, as opposed to required deeds. (For example, voluntary offerings as opposed to required offerings.)

But Irresistible Grace refers only to Regeneration.

This is one of the issues at the core of our disagreements, though it is not itself THE core of it.

You use these commonly used human terms, human concepts:
1. What can happen
2. God overruling someone's will
3. A person's will 'is what it is', and God works with and around it.

The Calvinistic person (whether actually a Calvinist or Reformed—and I claim neither) works from:
3. God is what he is, default fact (sovereign), and he is thus the basis by which all other fact and principle exists.
2. God needn't overrule anyone's will. He is not about them, he does not exist for them. Instead, they are about him, no matter what they think and do. They exist and do what they do for HIS purposes, whether they mean to or not.
1. Nothing can happen except by God's purposes. The notion of "possibility" is only about the future, and it is only our human notion. God already has that in hand. Only one thing is possible in any single consideration.

Notice that our options from which to choose are only that—options from which to choose. In fact, only the one chosen ever happens. We have no evidence that anything else 'could have been' chosen. Even in the Bible references to the hypothetical —(for eg, "If you had done (chosen, wanted, obeyed etc) 'this or that', then I would have done (been, said, rewarded etc) 'something or other'...")— do not indicate that anything could have happened, but to demonstrate various abstracts, such as what should have been chosen, or principles concerning what results follow which choices, and so on.

To be fair in representing the Reformed and Calvinist, not all of them put things the way I have there. That is my own way of saying it, but that is the basic difference.

The CORE of the difference between what are commonly called 'freewillers' and Calvinist/Reformed is in Point-of-View: Humano-centrism vs God-centrism, (to some degree dealt with in points #3 above).

once again, I have issue with this.

If nothing can happen besides Gods purpose.. than the fall of mankind is by Gods purpose. Evil is By Gods purpose.

I know that there are some things God does purpose./ but i do not think every action of every person who ever lived only does what God purposes.

God is omniscient, He not only knows what will happen. he knows what could happen if just a few things change, ie, he knows all possibilities. thatss why he can do what he needs to do. and chose people he knows will do his will. and put them in place or power to do such.

I believe God is sovereign

I also believe he is a God of love.

Through Gods love, he has the ability to set aside his sovereignty, in order to serve those he loved.

I think a huge difference is where we focus.

I (we) focus on Gods love, and place Gods sovereignty in that bubble ( but actually all of Gods characteristics are of equal value and can not operate without the other. they are in harmony)

While others mostly focus on his sovereignty and try to make everything fit within this context.