Free will. What is it?

[Arial]

@Eternally-Grateful

On the topic of "free will" and as it pertains to salvation, since that subject has been brought up.

Sequence of Events Leading to Salvation.

By using the term sequence here, I am merely putting it in human terms. From the perspective of God and of the actual application of salvation to a person, they may happen simultaneously but nevertheless there is a first thing, by distinction, that must happen before any of the other things can happen. And the other things occur in an order. IOW God does things all together, but within a distinct order. An orderly and necessary way.

Natural Condition of Man in Adam As To His Ability to Believe the Gospel Unto Salvation.

1 Cor 2:14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of the is world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience---among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

So before we can understand and believe the gospel, something must be done so that we can hear and believe. And it must be done by God. We cannot do it ourselves.

What God Does First So That When We Hear, We Believe.

Eph 2:4-5 But God----even when we were dead---made us alive---"

John 3:5-8 "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit . Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.; The wind blows where it wishes, and You hear its sounds but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"

John 1:12 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

So first, before it is possible to have faith and by faith, justification ( and in order though together), we must be born again by God. That is the grace of "by grace and through faith"---which is also a gift. It is not possible to believe before one has been born again. And what we choose after the new birth, is Christ, not whether or not we will accept faith (choose to believe). We choose Christ because we DO believe. We have been made truly willing.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do you mean, do you have to be made alive first. Yes, you do.

says who?

(God doesn't "have to" do anything —it has to be done, and God will do it. Sorry for being so picky, but the two ways of saying it don't mean the same thing).

Again, how can God take away the curse of sin to make me alive, before I am justified from the curse of sin?

Gods justice would not allow it. this makes no sense

According to 1 Corinthians 2:14, until you are no longer the "natural man" you cannot understand what he may (or may not) have convinced you of.

Yes. without Gods influence.

The devil is convinced too, and despairs. Being convinced is not faith, nor does the convinced person have the capability of producing salvific faith.

Produce faith? What does this even mean? I can not produce faith in anything. The person produces the ability for me to trust them, whoever it is..

You have said elsewhere that the faith is 'from God', in that God can convince you of his reliability, and so you have faith in him, just like you do in your wife (or in a chair, I say). That is not salvific faith

says who?

Do I trust God in what he says and what he promised. or do I not?

Do I trust my wife in what she says and what she promised or do i not?

. I can believe everything I do, and have it down and sensible, got the details, and am sure of them —convinced— but could be fooling myself.

Yes. and those who claim they trust God. but in reality trust that as long as they meet some standard. do not commit certain sins, Keep on believing or trusting under their own power. or do some Christian works of obedience. they are saved.

they are trusting self not God.

The tax collector trusted God. The Pharisee said he trusted and loved God. but he trusted self (he may have believed in god. but he had no faith in God)

It is GOD's work that produces salvific faith

Yes.. Salvic faith is just faith.

It is not mere belief.. I can say I have faith, it does not mean I have faith.

(John6:29 -interesting discussion, that!). The evidence, the convincing, the drawing, the circumstances —all good— but they do not make you capable of producing salvific faith. It must be generated by God himself. In that way, it is 'God's'. It is 'yours' because it is done within you.

again, I can not produce faith, unless that faith is in myself. why would you say we produce faith, we can not. in anyone..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let me try again. I am not saying that he makes you alive in sin.

I know you do not think you are. But that is not what I see.

I'm saying that while you WERE (past tense) still at enmity with him, he changed your will, so that you are no longer at enmity with him; he didn't ask you for permission, didn't consult you any more than you were consulted or asked permission to be born the first time. He changed your will.

So he overruled my will?

I disagree.

What had been set continually against him now becomes the old man within you. But YOU, the new man, are become a different thing from what you were.

Yes. ONCE I am born again, once I have been made the righteousness of Christ. Once I have been adoipted. Once I have been made alive.

non of this happens until my sin debt is paid in full. and I am justified

again, we are justified by faith. God will not force me, overrule my own will. or change my will against my own. however you want to call it.

I'm not afraid of saying anyone can call out to God. I would like to know what that means, for the one who Romans 8 says "cannot please God".

It means we can not do a good work.

Again, It is the work of God we have faith. not our work. we can not produce faith.. A person produces faith in us by proving his or herself to be trustworthy.

I can not earn my salvation by saying yes God. God gets ALL the glory and ALL the credit not me.

Turn this to John 3:16. We like to quote it so it sounds like just anybody can believe.

They can.

just like anyone in moses day could believe, but not everyone did

But that isn't what it says. Over and over this is seen. The ones who will truly be calling out to God with faith are those who have been already born-again. The fact they don't feel it is irrelevant.

No, You have them again born again before the curse is removed.

Look at Revelation 3:20, the old, "Behold I stand at the door and knock" verse. We love to say that God has not come in until we open the door. Not so. Look to whom that verse is addressed. Not the unsaved. That verse is about God's indescribable fellowship with Jesus and the Father. We look to him, we cry out for him, we need him, we desire him, and he comes to us. The Spirit of God is indwelling us. Here we see the Trinity also.

I do not see this..

again,

the wage of sin is death (the curse)

the curse must be removed before we can be made alive.

God is not only a God of perfect love, he is a perfect judge. If God removes our curse before he deems us innocent, He has gone against his own character.

if he does not love all people. even his enemy, (as he commands us to do) he is not perfect love. In fact he is a hypocrite. because he tells us to love perfectly, even our enemy, and not to chose who to love and who not to love.

but he did not practice what he preached.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is worth it, even for a non-Reformed.

I may some day,

I have read the book of mormon and other books. so I can know what they believe to help me try to help them.

I never considered a reformed my enemy so I never felt the need. i just try to stick to the word.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let's make sure I'm understanding you.

Your saying here that the sin of the fallen angels was worshipping God and teaching humanity to do the same?

how did you come up with this? Please let me know so I can correct my mistake.

no. this is not what I said.

 

[Hazelelponi]

how did you come up with this? Please let me know so I can correct my mistake.

no. this is not what I said.

Well most was just in the way you worded the first paragraph but it sounded so weird I figured it had to be wrong.

So good, definitely I misunderstood you then. Sorry.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Eternally-Grateful

On the topic of "free will" and as it pertains to salvation, since that subject has been brought up.

Sequence of Events Leading to Salvation.

By using the term sequence here, I am merely putting it in human terms. From the perspective of God and of the actual application of salvation to a person, they may happen simultaneously but nevertheless there is a first thing, by distinction, that must happen before any of the other things can happen. And the other things occur in an order. IOW God does things all together, but within a distinct order. An orderly and necessary way.

Natural Condition of Man in Adam As To His Ability to Believe the Gospel Unto Salvation.

1 Cor 2:14 "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

again, As I said earlier. This just says without outside help we can not understand the things of God. Until we are born of God we can not understand anything, and even then, it takes some study and growing to continue to learn.

This does not mean God can not teach us and help us understand the basics of the gospel. In fact. we see all over. we not only can understand it with his help. we are held accountable to what we do with this knowledge (do we repent and trust God or remain in unbelief)

Eph 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of the is world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience---among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."

Again, as I said to another person, you continue
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
The process of making us alive, and raising us up in by Grace, it is our salvation.

How are we saved by grace?

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 1
first. salvation, new life and being raised up is done by grace
second, it is given through faith
It is not of works (hence faith is not us saving ourself.
And we can not boast because we trusted God and received his gift of salvation.

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

So before we can understand and believe the gospel, something must be done so that we can hear and believe. And it must be done by God. We cannot do it ourselves.

Again, why did you stop here. Nicodemus asked. How can this be.

Jesus told him. As moses lifted the serpent, so must he be lifted up that all who believe will never perish.

Just like n eph 2, our salvation, our new life, our being raised is by grace, but it is through faith (we who believe are no longer condemned)

What God Does First So That When We Hear, We Believe.

Eph 2:4-5 But God----even when we were dead---made us alive---"

John 3:5-8 "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit . Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.; The wind blows where it wishes, and You hear its sounds but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"

Again don't stop these passages short. Both claim that this is done or completed by Grace through faith

John 1:12 "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

And here we go in this one verse I think we see the process

1. We receive him (in faith)
2. He gives us the power to become sons of God
3. Not because we willed it, or not because we were born into it, or not because our parents willed it.
4. Because We trusted God.

So first, before it is possible to have faith and by faith, justification ( and in order though together), we must be born again by God. That is the grace of "by grace and through faith"---which is also a gift. It is not possible to believe before one has been born again. And what we choose after the new birth, is Christ, not whether or not we will accept faith (choose to believe). We choose Christ because we DO believe. We have been made truly willing.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well most was just in the way you worded the first paragraph but it sounded so weird I figured it had to be wrong.

So good, definitely I misunderstood you then. Sorry.

However. Again, (and to try to keep us on topic) I believe God created us in his image, He created us to serve us (backward knowledge I know, The world and human knowledge said God created us to serve him, I firmly believe this is the lie that Lucifer spread and got 1/3 of all the heavenly angels to follow him in rebellion)

This one. sorry, let me try to rephrase it

1. He created us so he could serve us.
2. I know it sounds odd. human nature says God created us to serve him (I do not agree with this)

does this help?

 

[Hazelelponi]

This one. sorry, let me try to rephrase it

1. He created us so he could serve us.
2. I know it sounds odd. human nature says God created us to serve him (I do not agree with this)

does this help?

Yes .. it does thank you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes .. it does thank you.

thank you for bringing this to my attention

 

[prism]

This one. sorry, let me try to rephrase it

1. He created us so he could serve us.
2. I know it sounds odd. human nature says God created us to serve him (I do not agree with this)

does this help?

I don't get it; the WCT Q1 says:

Q1: What is the chief end of man? Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever.

So man glorifies God by having God serve him?

 

[Arial]

again, As I said earlier. This just says without outside help we can not understand the things of God. Until we are born of God we can not understand anything, and even then, it takes some study and growing to continue to learn.

If we can't understand it we can't believe it. It is the believing that gives eternal life, not choosing. (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; John 1:12; John 3:36 etc.) Everything in that post after "until" is ongoing sanctification and learning. Not salvation itself which is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor regarding the natural man.

This does not mean God can not teach us and help us understand the basics of the gospel. In fact. we see all over. we not only can understand it with his help. we are held accountable to what we do with this knowledge (do we repent and trust God or remain in unbelief)

It means that we have to be given the ability to understand and believe by God taking us spiritually out of Adam (the natural man who is an enmity with God) and placing us in Christ. He has to remove the stony heart and replace it with a heart that is soft and malleable in his hands.

I have to go take care of some things. Back later.

 

[Eleanor]

I disagree

I am forgiven because God offered me forgiveness and I recieved it in faith.

One more time. . .
your faith is a gift of God (Php- 1:29, Ac 1378, 8:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), it is not your own doing.
You cannot believe apart from God's enabling gift, and he does not enable all.

Because I was forgiven I was made alive (regenerated) as the penalty of sin was removed
again, I disagree.
You keep trying to remove John 3 about how we are born again. which is fine. But I can not remove that passage I must take it as a whole

Precisely. . .and taking Jn 3:3-8 as a whole reveals that to see the kingdom of God requires the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) rebirth of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

And we have digressed . I could reply in kind. But not worth it

Replying in kind would be to reply with Biblical truth.

Are you saying that you are that "fool who would reject that which God is his grace has given him a longing for?"

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't get it; the WCT Q1 says:

Q1: What is the chief end of man? Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him for ever.

So man glorifies God by having God serve him?

Like I said,

God created us to serve us. If he wanted us to serve him only. he would have made us all robots.. unable to think for ourselves.

It is better to give than receive.

Its better for God to give then is it not?

Love as I have loved you..

when we love others. that is us serving God. and when we do this, he is well pleased

I do not follow the WCT by the way. so I can not say if I agree with it or not.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If we can't understand it we can't believe it.

Which is why we need God to help us understand

thats the Job of the HS.

It is the believing that gives eternal life, not choosing. (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; John 1:12; John 3:36 etc.) Everything in that post after "until" is ongoing sanctification and learning. Not salvation itself which is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor regarding the natural man.

Salvation is having the curse removed. if the curse is still in effect. we are still in need of salvation

the curse is death

It means that we have to be given the ability to understand and believe by God taking us spiritually out of Adam

No. it is because God helps us understand

(the natural man who is an enmity with God) and placing us in Christ.

He baptizes us in christ after we hear the word of truth and believe, not before.

He has to remove the stony heart and replace it with a heart that is soft and malleable in his hands.

Yes, He can do that to anyone and everyone.

But he will not force it on you

I have to go take care of some things. Back later.

Take care. and be safe

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

One more time. . .
your faith is a gift of God (Php- 1:29, Ac 1378, 8:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), it is not your own doing.
You cannot believe apart from God's enabling gift, and he does not enable all.

Yes. Salvation is a gift. Eternal life is a gift.

if not for these gifts. I would have nothing to have faith in, hence by proxy faith is a gift.

Precisely. . .and taking Jn 3:3-8 as a whole reveals that to see the kingdom of God requires the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) rebirth of the Holy Spirit.

But it is accomplished in vs 10 - 18

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Replying in kind would be to reply with Biblical truth.

So you can call me a fool. but i have to respond biblical.

again, we digress.. I would respond. but it would not be kind..

 

[Eleanor]

He can be held accountable because God has determined to judge sin (of which Hitler has no shortage). Moral responsibility does not presuppose human freedom, it presupposes divine sovereignty and justice. We are responsible not because we are free but because we are not free—we are accountable to a sovereign God who has determined to judge sin. Every sinful choice Hitler made was because it related to what he wanted, and for that he is responsible.
Question: Can God stop someone from committing a sin?
According to 1 John 5:1, if someone stops believing, they were never born of God. In other words, they don't stop being born of God, but rather prove they were never born of God.
I want to, but that was muddled English. Could you try rephrasing, please?
You cited a biblical passage of nine verses. Which one says that they "will be born again"?

Or maybe you have a funky version.

Nothing like precise language in a Biblical discuccsion. . .

 

[Eleanor]

Poor reasoning, I think. It's not just that "remembers [our sins] no more" is referring to not holding them against us, but that logically, it is impossible for God to be omnipotent and omniscient if there is something God doesn't know. It also denies that he is First Cause, since, by the claim that there is something he doesn't know, the necessary implication is that there are things besides him that are self-existent, and to which he must accommodate himself —thus denying what he says, that he does not change.

No need for intervention, except where he intended all along to intervene. God doesn't fly by the seat of his pants.

Do you know what "by the seat of his pants" means? . . .Say "no" so I get to tell you.

In the early days of flyng before all the instrumentation, coming out of a roll the pilot knew (when all he could see was blue sky) when he was upright by the pull of gravity into the seat.