Free will. What is it?

[Eternally-Grateful]

John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word for draw can be pictured as dragging someone.
To me, that's a picture of against one's will

I think it always starts this way. And leads to us becoming like a tax collector

 

[prism]

I think it always starts this way. And leads to us becoming like a tax collector

Perhaps, but either way, God has a way of drawing/dragging us against our will. Saul/Paul as an example, (He makes us willing in the day of His visitation).

 

[fastfredy0]

John 1: 12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the [free] will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the [free] will of man [that of a natural father], but of [the free will of] God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD['s free will] determines his steps.

Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the free will of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.

Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately [free] wills to make Him known
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God['s free will]: that you believe

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human [free] will or exertion [nations cannot “will” or “exert”], but on God, who has mercy.

yada, yada!

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Perhaps, but either way, God has a way of drawing/dragging us against our will. Saul/Paul as an example, (He makes us willing in the day of His visitation).

John 6:44 nasb "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

​

G1670​

Original: ἑλκύω ἕλκω

Transliteration: helkuō helkō

Phonetic: hel-koo'-o

Thayer Definition:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Origin: probably akin to G138

TDNT entry: 10:23,2

Part(s) of speech: Verb

 

[Arial]

Again, How can God make me alive in sin>.

That is exactly what he does and he tells us that he does. Read the following with an open heart and open mind, in a contemplative manner. God deserves that honor. Eph 2






2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

​

 

[makesends]

mind if I ask what the WCF is.. you all have lost me know..lol

Westminster Confession of Faith

It's kind of a "Here's what we believe" for a lot of churches and theologians. I would say it is more popular with the Reformed than with the Calvinists, and there are several other confessions and creeds Calvinists and Reformed attend to.

 

[makesends]

did not know we were arguing defenitions.

maybe that is why it seemed to get heated a few times?

I have four blood brothers. For some reason we almost ALWAYS misunderstand each other. You would think that since we grew up together that we would be able to communicate easily. NOPE! (I think it's related to the way that I have to look through all my pockets first just to be sure that I am right that what I am looking for is not in those pockets, before looking in the pocket that I think the thing I am looking for is in!) When my brother says, "NO! The OTHER one!", he thinks I should know what he means! It can get heated before we just laugh at each other.

I'm too lazy to analyze the differences between proving to each other that one is right, vs, making sure each understands what the other is saying. Either way we seem to get lost!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Perhaps, but either way, God has a way of drawing/dragging us against our will. Saul/Paul as an example, (He makes us willing in the day of His visitation).

I can only go by experience. When I was first introduced to Church and God I was not interested. I resisted. But in the weeks leading up to my new birth. I no longer resisted. I prayed almost nightly for God to save me, I just did not know what it mean or how. Until a deacon took me into a room and walked me through scripture.

As for Paul God spent many a year drawing him, he most likely witnessed the trial of Jesus and he was there when Steven got stones. And let’s not forget. He got a first hand view of heaven.. So he got to see things non of us can even imagine.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is exactly what he does and he tells us that he does.

No he does not

Making one alive is the process of being justified.

Our sin debt is removed, and that which makes us dead 9the penalty of sin) is removed.

Read the following with an open heart and open mind, in a contemplative manner. God deserves that honor. Eph 2






2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

​

I already looked at this earlier. And I have an open mind.. I came into this thread with an open mind

How were we made alive (saved)

It is by grace we have been saved (vs 5) because it is by grace we have been saved (made alive) through faith.

You can not have salvation apart from faith.. you cannot have new birth apart from faith (john 3:16 confirms this)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Westminster Confession of Faith

It's kind of a "Here's what we believe" for a lot of churches and theologians. I would say it is more popular with the Reformed than with the Calvinists, and there are several other confessions and creeds Calvinists and Reformed attend to.

I do not think I ever studied these..

 

[prism]

As for Paul...He got a first hand view of heaven.. So he got to see things non of us can even imagine.

and of course, by that time Saul/Paul was a believer.

 

[prism]

John 6:44 nasb "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.​

​

G1670​

Original: ἑλκύω ἕλκω

Transliteration: helkuō helkō

Phonetic: hel-koo'-o

Thayer Definition:

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Origin: probably akin to G138

TDNT entry: 10:23,2

Part(s) of speech: Verb

And Thayer wasn't even a Calvinist but rather was a Unitarian!

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

She wasn't calling you stupid. Oxymoron is about self-conflicting or self-contradictory terms, like, ". It is not related to the word, "moron" or "moronic". Three examples from a search: "jumbo shrimp," "deafening silence," and "bittersweet." "Oxymoronic" can also be more than a word or term, such as a concept or a sentence. "God must obey his own will" is an oxymoronic statement.

Just a minor quibble (because being accurate matters): The word oxymoron actually is related to the word moron. It comes from the Greek words oxys (sharp, pointed, keen) and moros (foolish, dull, stupid).

Ironically, that means the word oxymoron is itself an oxymoron; translated literally, oxymoron means "sharp-dull," "keen-stupid," or "pointedly foolish."

 

[makesends]

yes. But many of our attributes are his. as he created us like him

or maybe it is trying to understand him in a way we are able

I think he set out to create a world. to put in this world. and serve the people of that world. And that the people who he put on this earth rebelled and he had to adjust things that he did not really want to do to begin with. But was required to do if he wanted to save his creation.

I disagree.

Jonah resisted. If he did not repent and agree. he would have died in the belly of the fish. and we would never of heard of him

then where does the decree of God come in?

Did he deliberately plan and intend Hitler to murder millions?

yes. there was a purpose for the cross. what was the purpose for the holocost?

what do you mean by replaced?

And lev 26 shows Gods commands

Obey me, and live in peace.

disobey me and you will be punished. up to and including being removed from your land, scattered and your cities destroyed

But even after that, if they repent and acknowledge their sin, God will remember them and his promise.

I disagree that he caused them (decreed) to disobey and go through 7 different punishments and be removed from their land 3 times..



but it is still afact.

what is love,, what does giving love look like. what is it not?

No I do not see it this way.

God tested adam. And gave him the opportunity to sin. Adam had to make a choice.. I think when we hear the whole story. Adam did resist many times, it was that one time.. and look at the result

again, if I have no possibility to resist. I have no freedom to chose. I am bound to chose the one option. so in this case. I have no will, free or not. at least again, as i see it.



So we can chose to receive salvation? or reject salvation?

I'm beginning to think I need to just deal with the below, instead of dealing with the minutia.

I think the disagreement we have is God decrees everything.

The term, 'decree', stems from him speaking everything into existence. Whatever is, was made to be so by God, to include absolutely everything that is not God himself. Otherwise it could not have come into being. Alternative words are "ordain", "cause", even "create" and "make" though those two are more specific to certain uses.

That God decrees everything is one of the disagreements, but I think the disagreement comes from an assumption, a worldview.

I come from both Bible and logic. And I came to what I believe by way of problems I can't even begin to describe. I have spent many hard years in agonized prayer and private Bible study and trying to figure out why what I was brought up being told about God and walking with God just didn't make sense. Maybe 35 or so years ago now, I finally realized what was going on was that what Reason and Scripture both said about God showed that the concept of God I was brought up to believe in and to walk with, was not a valid concept of God; we have made him in our image. I finally came to what I now believe and only then began to realize it very closely resembled Reformed Theology.

Now, finally, everything makes sense, except for why God would love me so.
Let me list just a few things I figured/found out:

God did all this for HIS own Glory, and includes us in it for HIS own sake.
God had in mind the end from the beginning, and all the details it takes to get to the end.
Nothing happens by chance —causation by chance is self-contradictory, by definition.
If there's anything that God did not in some way, directly or indirectly, cause, then it happened by chance, which is self-contradictory.
There is no such thing as partly autonomous, partly spontaneous, partly uncaused.
If God is Omnipotent, he is First Cause. There can be only one first cause, and under that fact can be found all the attributes of God.
This life is about Christ
This life is not for this life
Christ brings us the Gospel, and it is about him, and it is for his sake. You've probably heard here already, that the gospel is the whole thing, the whole story, not just 7 or 8 concepts. Much simpler than we can understand. The Gospel is Christ.
The command doesn't imply the ability to obey.
—and many more things.
Particularly sweet to me is the reason for creation: For the praise of his glory, he will dwell among us, and be our God, and we will be his people. Heaven.

I love to watch him work.

 

[makesends]

I have decided after yesterday that some things are just not worth getting into with some people. so I have moved on..

he asked me to prove it, I can't, non of us can. so to continue to even go down that rabbit trail would not be good for either of us.. so I have moved on.

That's ok. You are not required to deal with it. The rule (as I understand it) only requires that the claim/accusation, by one party against another, of logical or debate fallacy, be dealt with before continuing on to the next. It could also be interpreted as meaning that it be dealt with before continuing to discuss with that person in that thread.

 

[makesends]

Just a minor quibble (because being accurate matters): The word oxymoron actually is related to the word moron. It comes from the Greek words oxys (sharp, pointed, keen) and moros (foolish, dull, stupid).

Ironically, that means the word oxymoron is itself an oxymoron; translated literally, oxymoron means "sharp-dull," "keen-stupid," or "pointedly foolish."

Yes. More accurately, the word moron and oxymoron are related only through their root, "moros". To say that someone spoke or used and oxymoron doesn't mean they are stupid. It only means that they said something that is by meaning self-denying or self-contradictory, or that turns on itself.

Lol, I love it that 'oxymoron' is itself an oxymoron. There are a few other kinds of words like that; some, like onomatopoeia-ic words (which sound like what they mean) and, shoot, my old brain is failing me —got up to get something and forgot what I was going to say. Oh well, it's off-topic.

 

[makesends]

how fast can you drive?

sin is sin is sin.

the question is do you know it is sin and are you willfully doing it knowing your in sin?

But sin is more than just the deed. It is the why, the rebellion against God, which is endemic to the nature of the lost. And in the saved, it is being brought up and driven out.

 

[makesends]

then is it sensical to say we must continue to believe

or is it better to say the person who reads, if they are believing, then they have received what God said he would give to all who believe (in this case they are born again, and will never perish.

I do not take either of those passages as saying we must continue to believe, I take them as saying if we are believing, we have those things, if we on the other hand have not believed, we have not recieved what is given.

Lol, I don't remember what passages we're talking about. Do the passages say we must continue (as in exhorting or commanding) us to believe?

wow that took me all morning to catch up.

thank everyone for contributing..

I'm still at it!

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

If Hitler's actions were preordained (before time began), and Hitler pretty much had no ability to not do what he did, then how can Hitler be held accountable?

He can be held accountable because God has determined to judge sin (of which Hitler has no shortage). Moral responsibility does not presuppose human freedom, it presupposes divine sovereignty and justice. We are responsible not because we are free but because we are not free—we are accountable to a sovereign God who has determined to judge sin. Every sinful choice Hitler made was because it related to what he wanted, and for that he is responsible.

Question: Can God stop someone from committing a sin?

Okay, so what if one stops believing? Do they stop being born again?

According to 1 John 5:1, if someone stops believing, they were never born of God. In other words, they don't stop being born of God, but rather prove they were never born of God.

how can this be, is if I am being presented. that they at one time believed, and were born of God?

see the problem?

I want to, but that was muddled English. Could you try rephrasing, please?

[John 3:10-19] says God loved the world, so that all who believe or look up will be born again.

You cited a biblical passage of nine verses. Which one says that they "will be born again"?

Or maybe you have a funky version.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

... the word moron and oxymoron are related ...

Which is what I said, yes, correcting your statement that they're not related.