Free will. What is it?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Tell @Josheb . Explain, and that, in as few words as possible; admit he is right or deny he is right. But work it out with him if you can. If you cannot, stop talking to him.

That is what I have chosen to do..

thank you

 

[Arial]

understand what others believe and why

And if you would do that instead of telling them that they are defending Calvinism (painting them into a corner?) instead of trying to understand what you are saying, or respond to what you say, things would go better.

But they are not all inclusive.

No one is talking or asserting that an "ism" is all inclusive. No one is even talking about an "ism" that I know of. It is you who says they are.

As I said a few times know. I would agree with OSAS. OSAS as I understand is a Calvinist belief. so when people hear the term osas, they automatically assume, he must be Calvinist. so every Calvinist belief is attributed to that person.

You would be amazed at how many times I have tried and tried and tried to convince people I do not believe in different Calvinist doctrines. and they reject what I say and say I believe in OSAS thus I must be Calvinist.

Are we now talking about Calvinism and OSAS, or are we still talking about "free will"? You have inadvertently inserted several different conversations into this thread by doing this changing of the subject when responding to a specific subject. That is not an accusation, or an insult and hopefully won't be treated as such. What it is meant to be and could be is a teaching on staying focused.

see there is the issue.

The bible does not say free will. then again It does not say trinity either.

That is not the issue. The reason it is not the issue is because I did not ask you to show me where "free will" is used in the Bible. I ask you if the Bible ever discusses "free will".

same thing goes with free will. If your looking for the words. you will not find it. But you see examples everywhere. what we have to do is interpret what we see in those examples.

Give me two examples and I will discuss them with you. Because I do not see it discussing "free will". It does however show that God created mankind with a will, therefore he is a being that makes choices. And it shows us the choices they made, and those that were offered. But it does not discuss whether these choices are free or not. In fact, a case could be made, and has been made even in this thread, that there is no such thing as "free will". If you relate this doctrine of "free will" in whatever definition is given to it, with the proper doctrine of God, (which should always be the first thing in establishing doctrine) one will find that even if there were such a thing as "free will" which is the first thing that becomes impossible within a sound doctrine of God, he wouldn't give it to fallen humans, who then could totally disrupt his plan of redemption. Jesus would end up dying and not accomplishing what he died to accomplish. Which is to save the elect and eventually take away all the sin in the world by conquering and destroying it.

I understand that you are defining "free will" as the ability to choose between two or more options. And I have already posted my views of that. And if that definition of "free will" is incorrect, and therefore has no place in the Bible, wouldn't it be a good thing to find out what does have a place in the Bible?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If, as you intimate here, getting a little tipsy is a sin, then indulging in it is sin —whether you knew it or not, it is done in rebellion to God. (It is a little like, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." If there is no posted speed limit, it doesn't mean it's ok to drive 55.)

how fast can you drive?

sin is sin is sin.

the question is do you know it is sin and are you willfully doing it knowing your in sin?

I'm not talking about looking to the law.

I was not either..

God looks on the heart to judge the deeds. If ignorance of the truth is the case, it doesn't mean that the sin is not done in rebellion, but God does "take that into consideration".

again, sin is sin is sin

the question is, did I willfully sin

I would say most of the time probably yes. But I can not say yes to every instance of things we do that are sin.

Take a look at the principle, that the nature of the lost is that of SIN. The lost is at enmity with God. Everything they do, is sin. (Even the good they do, is done at enmity with God). So also, "the old man" within the saved is still at enmity with God. If something the saved does is against God's law, whether the saved knew it or not, it is done at enmity with God—it is the old man doing it. But thank God for his inestimable Grace, his patience and forebearance!

again, we are talking about willful sin.

is every sin we do wil lfull outright rebellion.

I do not agree this is true

 

[Hazelelponi]

understand them.. just think it goes deeper than the words you used.

Im honestly not sure how a definition of sin as being anything in act, attitude, and nature that is against the moral law of God would be somehow inadequate.

I also linked you to a free PDF of a very good systematic theology in which the author has a minimum of 12 pages on sin with tons of related Bible verses to consider.

If this wording in the first paragraph is inaccurate then what words would you use? What's your definition?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The Westminster Confession of Faith.

The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (eBook) | Monergism

by Westminster Divinesin ePub, .mobi & .pdf formatsWith Scripture proofs.This eBook includes the Westminster Confession of Faith and its Subordinate Documents:

www.monergism.com

aww. this makes sense. thank you

 

[Arial]

You assume the other person would think this,

again, sometimes we just need to temper what we say.. why say it anyway?

I never for a single second assumed that you would think I was calling you stupid by saying a statement was oxymoronic. Your telling me what I assumed when I used the word is what is out of line and your assumption that my intent was to insult you, is insulting.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It's not about Hitler being accountable for his actions.

Adam's fall caused the removal of the Holy Spirit from the human spirit and, thereby, condemned all his descendants to damnation.
Hitler was condemned from birth.

Hitler was born an enemy of God (Ro 5:9) and by nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3), he didn't become one by his actions.

The only relief is the gift of God; i.e., faith (Php 1:29) in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin (Eph 2:8-9).

They were never born again in the first place. Their faith was counterfeit.

I do not think you understand my point, I am sorry.

Yes I know he was dead because of adam, but he eventually earned his own death by his own sin, as paul said, i

romans 7: 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

if hitler had no choice. he could not be held accountable.. in any shape or form.

as for belief,

then why would we say it must be ongoing then?

I agree by the way, we will never stop believing. We do not stop believing in someone who never lets me down.

The problem is, the moment I trusted God I was born of God. My faith or status of my faith at this moment 40 years later does not matter.

same with john 3. The one who believed at that moment was born again, He was rescued. And he was given the promise he would never prish and he has eternal life.

although the word is in active present tense. It has no bearing on whether the person is still believing or not.. as the loss of salvation people would claim

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Does this "look at causes and effects of our actions" make our choice no longer an effect of causes external to ourselves? To say it another way, is a choice based on those "answers" of which you speak, based only on our deliberations, and not on those causes from/upon which the deliberations are made?

I am not sure what you mean here. Sorry

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Correct. The scenario is impossible, but the propositional logic is valid, that if one stops believing, then they have lost whatever salvation they supposed was theirs. But it is impossible to stop believing: The faith behind that belief is wholly valid, because it is generated by the Spirit of God, and not by the believer. We cannot maintain it —HE does. Continuous action.

then is it sensical to say we must continue to believe

or is it better to say the person who reads, if they are believing, then they have received what God said he would give to all who believe (in this case they are born again, and will never perish.

I do not take either of those passages as saying we must continue to believe, I take them as saying if we are believing, we have those things, if we on the other hand have not believed, we have not recieved what is given.

Little "anecdotal evidence", here: I recall at one time, I think maybe even before I was 10, I was so tired of always wanting what I was not allowed to have, and that, at the ringing-in-my-ears of, "That is not what Christians do!", that I decided to tell everyone that I was not a Christian and did not believe in God. I suddenly found that it was impossible for me to do. I mean, not only did I realize it was dishonest, but it was not something I was even ABLE to do. I COULD NOT. It was kinda like reaching for a hammer to find that I had only been dreaming there even was a hammer.

interesting, Peter did it three times, I do not think he wanted to either.

Only true as propositional logic. The If-Then statement is valid. But the part identified by the "If" is not true. Therefore, the part identified by the "Then", is also not valid.

I think I understand lol

"Make believers"! Ha! I like that!

lol. I always loved it when he would say that.

 

[Eleanor]

yes. But many of our attributes are his. as he created us like him

And they are all corrupted with sin.

or maybe it is trying to understand him in a way we are able

Which process leads to misunderstanding him.

I think he set out to create a world. to put in this world. and serve the people of that world. And that the people who he put on this earth rebelled and he had to adjust things that he did not really want to do to begin with. But was required to do if he wanted to save his creation.

Sin, judgment and condemnation are part of his plan from the beginning (Ro 9:22-23).

I disagree.
Jonah resisted. If he did not repent and agree. he would have died in the belly of the fish. and we would never of heard of him

So the outcome was that Jonah did not resist to the end, and God's decree was fulfilled.

then where does the decree of God come in?

God's decree allows sin, but he is not the author of it.

Did he deliberately plan and intend Hitler to murder millions?

Does God bring judgment on sin?

yes. there was a purpose for the cross. what was the purpose for the holocost?

They were the same. . .judgment.

what do you mean by replaced?
And lev 26 shows Gods commands
Obey me, and live in peace.
disobey me and you will be punished. up to and including being removed from your land, scattered and your cities destroyed
But even after that, if they repent and acknowledge their sin, God will remember them and his promise.
I disagree that he caused them (decreed) to disobey and go through 7 different punishments and be removed from their land 3 times..
but it is still afact.
what is love,, what does giving love look like. what is it not?

No I do not see it this way.
God tested adam. And gave him the opportunity to sin. Adam had to make a choice.. I think when we hear the whole story. Adam did resist many times, it was that one time.. and look at the result
again, if I have no possibility to resist. I have no freedom to chose. I am bound to chose the one option. so in this case. I have no will, free or not. at least again, as i see it.

Free will being "the power to choose what we prefer,"
God works in the disposition giving me to prefer his will, which I then freely choose.

So we can chose to receive salvation? or reject salvation?

We aren't given a choice. . .rebirth is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) over which we have no control (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Does God constrain our behavior, such as when He does not allow some to believe? Yes.

so God would not allow people to believe and be rescued?

what does this say about God?

So we are not bound only by our sinful nature, but by all the constraints of the purview God provides. Soil #1 in Matthew 13 had lost the ability to understand the gospel, due to the practice of sin, but Soils 2, 3 and 4 were also sinful but had not lost the ability to understand the gospel.

I see it differently

soil 1 through 3 were lost. they never came to faith, so when push came to shove, they walked away. they did not produce fruit because they never had christ.

soil 4 did have true faith, and was given God. and thus, they were able to produce fruit.

Scripture says God's knowledge is beyond our ability to fully grasp or measure, but it does not say or suggest it is infinite. That claim arose from a poor translation. (Psalm 147:5 - compare the KJV to the ESV) Scripture says God knows all about the thing or things in context, but does not say God knows all about everything, since He remembers no more forever our forgiven sins. God does declare some things that will happen in the future, and then He fulfills those declarations by making what He declared happen by intervention.

so God is limited? Never heard this before. interesting thought

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Im honestly not sure how a definition of sin as being anything in act, attitude, and nature that is against the moral law of God would be somehow inadequate.

The law was given to prove our guilt

the law does not give us every possible instance of sin.

so if we try to use the law as a guideline, that that is sin and everything else is not.. I think we fail to comprehend in reality what true sin is.

I also linked you to a free PDF of a very good systematic theology in which the author has a minimum of 12 pages on sin with tons of related Bible verses to consider.

I have ready many books on theology. I have a few systematic theology books myself. and i grew up in a church that taught systematic theology as taught at Dallas theological seminary.

If I get time today I will try to read what you linked me too.

If this wording in the first paragraph is inaccurate then what words would you use? What's your definition?

anything not of love is sin.

the word sins "hamarte" literally means to miss the mark.

God set the standard. anything short of that standard is sin.

we spend our lives as believers learning about God. so we can learn that standard..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And they are all corrupted with sin.

are they?

Which process leads to misunderstanding him.

does it?

Sin, judgment and condemnation are part of his plan from the beginning (Ro 9:22-23).

who are the vessels of mercy?

So the outcome was that Jonah did not resist to the end, and God's decree was fulfilled.

What if Jonah continued to resist and died in the fish?

I agree. this is one plan God wanted fuflilled. but what if Jonah did not repent?

God's decree allows sin, but he is not the author of it.

Allowing sin, is not the cause of sin.

the person still had to chose to sin, or not to sin (in whatever they were doing)

Does God bring judgment on sin?

not sure how this answers my question, sorry

They were the same. . .judgment.

on who?

Free will being "the power to choose what we prefer,"
God works in the disposition giving me to prefer his will, which I then freely choose.

Again, I disagree with this definition. if you want to use it, That is fine, I will know how you see free will so I can interpret what you mean

We aren't given a choice. . .rebirth is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) over which we have no control (Jn 3:3-5).

But we are given a choice.

once again, Jesus said we must be born again (this was not a suggestion it is a command)

vs 3 - 8 is Jesus telling us what it is. what does it mean, in response to Nicodumus asking must I go back into my mothers womb.

When Nicodemus asked how can it be,.

jesus answered..

How are we born again?

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

there is only one thing that separates the lost from the found

did we believe, or did we remains in unbelief.

the choice is for everyone to make.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

wow that took me all morning to catch up.

thank everyone for contributing..

 

[Hazelelponi]

the law does not give us every possible instance of

God's moral law is the morality of God Himself.

When we are saved, as outlined in Jeremiah 31:31-33 God's law becomes written on our hearts instead of tables of stone.

We aren't talking about washing bowls and rituals now, we are talking about the moral law of God that we do adopt the second we are saved. .

It's a new morality, and a whole new worldview. God's moral law encompasses more than I think you realize.

 

[Hazelelponi]

see it differently

soil 1 through 3 were lost. they never came to faith, so when push came to shove, they walked away. they did not produce fruit because they never had christ.

soil 4 did have true faith, and was given God. and thus, they were able to produce fruit.

Perhaps reading and understanding is helpful.

The Scriptures state that the seed was the word of God and the soil was the hearts of the people hearing.

Therefore soil 1-4 all heard the word, but hearing alone doesn't save anyone. Therefore only 1 had good soil because God only regenerated 1 to both hear and understand towards a positive and lasting response of faith and belief.

but does not say God knows all about everything, since He remembers no more forever our forgiven sins.

That must be what that person was trying to say...

You all need a different way to word that. Something like, our sins will no longer be in /no longer come to God's rememberance, or something.

 

[Eleanor]

are they?
does it?
who are the vessels of mercy?

Those whose sin he chooses to forgive through the gift of faith (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

What if Jonah continued to resist and died in the fish?
I agree. this is one plan God wanted fuflilled. but what if Jonah did not repent?

What if God didn't create Jonah and the problem didn't exist?
You think God is not capable of persuading him to not resist?
Your God is too small.

Allowing sin, is not the cause of sin.
the person still had to chose to sin, or not to sin (in whatever they were doing)
not sure how this answers my question, sorry

The answer to my question to you is the answer to your question to me.

on who?

It was judgment on both. . .the cross was judgment on Christ for our sin, and the holocaust was judgment on German Jews who reject Christ, thereby crucifying him all over again (Heb 6:6).

Again, I disagree with this definition. if you want to use it, That is fine, I will know how you see free will so I can interpret what you mean

Free will means I get to choose what I want to choose.

But we are given a choice.
once again, Jesus said we must be born again (this was not a suggestion it is a command)

Read it again, it is no such thing.

vs 3 - 8 is Jesus telling us what it is. what does it mean, in response to Nicodumus asking must I go back into my mothers womb.
When Nicodemus asked how can it be,.
jesus answered..How are we born again?
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

there is only one thing that separates the lost from the found
did we believe, or did we remains in unbelief.
the choice is for everyone to make.

You won't choose it if you can't see it.
"No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (Jn 3:3-5)
which rebirth is a sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) act of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I made no such assertion.



At some point, God allows a calloused person to continue in your blindness. This should be evident in Romans why the nation of Israel had been temporarily set aside because of their unbelief.



Again, you’re misrepresenting my position.

forgive me if I misunderstood you,

Can you explain what this means please?

Does God constrain our behavior, such as when He does not allow some to believe? Yes.

As for your last question. If what you said here is what you believe

Scripture says God's knowledge is beyond our ability to fully grasp or measure, but it does not say or suggest it is infinite. That claim arose from a poor translation. (Psalm 147:5 - compare the KJV to the ESV) Scripture says God knows all about the thing or things in context, but does not say God knows all about everything, since He remembers no more forever our forgiven sins. God does declare some things that will happen in the future, and then He fulfills those declarations by making what He declared happen by intervention.

how does this not limit God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Perhaps reading and understanding is helpful.

The Scriptures state that the seed was the word of God and the soil was the hearts of the people hearing.

yes

Therefore soil 1-4 all heard the word, but hearing alone doesn't save anyone. Therefore only 1 had good soil because God only regenerated 1 to both hear and understand towards a positive and lasting response of faith and belief.

or was it because one believed and had true saving faith. vs the other 3 who may have believed, but not to the saving of the soul? (ie had mere belief, but no faith.

 

[Hazelelponi]

yes

or was it because one believed and had true saving faith. vs the other 3 who may have believed, but not to the saving of the soul? (ie had mere belief, but no faith.

Depends on what perspective you want to look at it from. Are you looking from your human perspective, or from God's?

As we see in Acts 16:14 in the conversion of Lydia, "the Lord opened Lydia's heart to receive Paul's message".

Whether we see it or not, God's hand is upon His children. Our salvation, our understanding, our very position before Him is in His Hand.

This is why we pray. We aren't at the mercy of our fallen flesh, we are at the mercy of a God with the power to save.