Free will. What is it?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Those whose sin he chooses to forgive through the gift of faith (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

So are we forgiven because we are regenerated or because we trust God

What if God didn't create Jonah and the problem didn't exist?

the problem still would have existed would it not?

You think God is not capable of persuading him not to resist?

God will not over rule a persons freedom to chose.

Your God is too small.

No. My God would have let Jonah die. and found someone else to complete the task. My God is not limited to one man,, he has many to chose from.

The answer to my question is the answer to your question.

Sorry, i do not see it

It was judgment on both. . .the cross was judgment on Christ for our sin, and the holocaust was judgment on German Jews who reject Christ, thereby crucifying him all over again (Heb 6:6).

So Germain jews are the only ones who suffered?
I do not see the correlation between what happened to any jew (most were not german) and Heb 6: 6

Free will means I get to choose what I want to choose.

Or you get to chose what you may not want. but you chose it anyway, for whatever reason.

Read it again, it is no such thing.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

in essence, it is a command. Be born again, or you will not see the kingdom of God.

You won't choose it if you can't see it. "No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (Jn 3:3-5)
which rebirth is a sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) act of the Holy Spirit.

Yes. and how did Nicodemus respond?

How can these things be, what are these things? vs 6 - 8

Jesus answer was how those things are.

Your right, I can not see the kingdom of God or even be in it unless I am born again.

All I can see is my need to be born again.. My need to be born again is not the kingdom of God. God dyeing for my sin is not the kingdom of God. The good news as Jesus said is the gospel of repentance for remission of sin.

That is how jesus said we enter or see the kingdom.. By trusting him..

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

As Jesus said, when I am born again, I do not see where it came from. (I do not even feel it) but I can know it happened.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Depends on what perspective you want to look at it from. Are you looking from your human perspective, or from God's?

I am looking at it from what I believe is Gods perspective.

I assume youi believe the same

But to tell me it is my human perspective.. I could say the same thing to you. But I will not. Because it is not polite..nor does it add anything to our discussion

As we see in Acts 16:14 in the conversion of Lydia, "the Lord opened Lydia's heart to receive Paul's message".

What God did was open understanding. Lydia still had to trust God or reject God.

Whether we see it or not, God's hand is upon His children. Our salvation, our understanding, our very position before Him is in His Hand.

I agree 100%

This is why we pray. We aren't at the mercy of our fallen flesh, we are at the mercy of a God with the power to save.

Yes. the tax collector fell to the mercy of God.. And because of his faith, He went home justified. Born again. Had eternal life.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Somehow, some way God allows every person to either make the right decision or the wrong decision. After so many chances, maybe even after just one chance, God may allow a person to continue in their hardened state.

ok, I did not read it this way forgive me, And yes, i agree. Although I think God gives a person up until the time they pass on the chance to repent.

I affirm that God is unlimited in power but there are times when He chooses to limit Himself. The incarnate Son did not know the time of His return as one example.

Jesus set aside his diety.

I Think God does know. and because he knows all things it is how he can accomplish what he needs without affecting a persons will

 

[Hazelelponi]

But to tell me it is my human perspective.. I could say the same thing to you. But I will not. Because it is not polite..

I'm sorry for any offense but I don't see how it's offensive to ask if you're looking at something from a human perspective.

We are human beings, we all have a human perspective.

For God's perspective we search Scripture. I was sharing with you salvation where regeneration prior to salvation occurred.

I was in no way being insulting.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm sorry for any offense but I don't see how it's offensive to ask if you're looking at something from a human perspective.

Its not

Its offensive if you SAY you are looking at it from a human perspective.

You said, am I looking at it from MY human perspective, or Gods?

We are human beings, we all have a human perspective.

For God's perspective we search Scripture. I was sharing with you salvation where regeneration prior to salvation occurred.

Now that is your perspective. I did not see regeneration before salvation occurred. But you see it that way, I do not agree.

I was in no way being insulting.

sorry if I misunderstood you. Next time, instead of saying YOUR human perspective. Just say are you looking at it from human perspective or Gods.

 

[makesends]

it would be great, but after years in discussion with to the believers. there are some things people are willing to die for.. even apposing views where both parties are willing to die for their view to be right.

I did not know we were trying to see who was right.

I thought we were discussing different views.

Ok, maybe we're trying to describe our differing views and trying to understand the other, and why each thinks their views are valid.

You have said that you don't think God causes all things. Lol, we've written so much, and I have about 40 still to read, so I don't know if you have answered this question, but I think you said that you don't think God causes absolutely everything. Can you explain to me how anything can happen if God did not cause that it happen? I'm not saying that he caused it directly, but asking if he did not in some way have an intentional hand in it coming to pass.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I have searched scripture and I see no verse that suggests a person is regenerated prior to salvation. Paul even says at one point we were children of wrath. What I see is that faith, regeneration, salvation all occur simultaneously.

Does regeneration come before faith? | GotQuestions.org

Does regeneration come before faith? Does regeneration precede faith or happen as a result of faith?

www.gotquestions.org

^^ this is likely its own thread.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Would you agree that by doing so, He chose to limit Himself?

yes, in that case..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ok, maybe we're trying to describe our differing views and trying to understand the other, and why each thinks their views are valid.

You have said that you don't think God causes all things. Lol, we've written so much, and I have about 40 still to read, so I don't know if you have answered this question, but I think you said that you don't think God causes absolutely everything. Can you explain to me how anything can happen if God did not cause that it happen? I'm not saying that he caused it directly, but asking if he did not in some way have an intentional hand in it coming to pass.

God allowing something to happen does not mean God caused it.

An example I can think of is in the OT. God prevented baryon from taking Jerusalem. until he did not. He did not cause per say Babylon to destroy Jerusalem. He allowed it.

He used Babylon with its power and will to do what Babylon wanted to do.

same with adam, He did not cause adam to sin, but by the very prospect of putting that tree in the garden, he allowed Adam to chose to sin.. He did not cause Adam to sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I’ve read the article and understand that God draws all people to Himself, the question then becomes, can that drawing be resisted? Scripture certainly seems to indicate so.

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Amen,

along with this is this

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[Eleanor]

So are we forgiven because we are regenerated or because we trust God

It's not either/or, it's both/and.

We trust God because we are sovereignly regenerated (Jn 3:3-8), which regeneration then results in the gift of faith and trust (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) by which our sin is forgiven.

God will not over rule a persons freedom to chose.

God doesn't "overrule" our freedom when he gives us to prefer his will, which we then freely and willingly choose.

No. My God would have let Jonah die. and found someone else to complete the task. My God is not limited to one man,, he has many to chose from.

Sorry, i do not see it

It's the answer to a question in post #291. Link back to it.

So Germain jews are the only ones who suffered?

They are the only ones who suffered the holocaust.

I do not see the correlation between what happened to any jew (most were not german) and Heb 6: 6

Heb 6:6 refers to all Christ-rejecting Jews (and mankind).

Or you get to chose what you may not want. but you chose it anyway, for whatever reason.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
in essence, it is a command. Be born again, or you will not see the kingdom of God.

Its essence is its grammar, and grammatically it is not a command.

Yes. and how did Nicodemus respond?
How can these things be, what are these things? vs 6 - 8
Jesus answer was how those things are.
Your right, I can not see the kingdom of God or even be in it unless I am born again.
All I can see is my need to be born again..
My need to be born again is not the kingdom of God. God dyeing for my sin is not the kingdom of God. The good news as Jesus said is the gospel of repentance for remission of sin.

"See" is the operative word here.
To "see" your need to be born again is to see (understand) by the Holy Spirit the things of the kingdom of God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It's not either/or, it's both/and.

I disagree

I am forgiven because God offered me forgiveness and I recieved it in faith.

Because I was forgiven I was made alive (regenerated) as the penalty of sin was removed

We trust God because we are sovereignly regenerated (Jn 3:3-8), which regeneration then results in the gift of faith and trust (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) by which our sin is forgiven.

God doesn't "overrule" our freedom when he gives us to prefer his will, which we then freely and willingly choose.

They are the only ones who suffered the holocaust.

again, I disagree.

You keep trying to remove John 3 about how we are born again. which is fine. But I can not remove that passage I must take it as a whole

 

[Josheb]

If Hitlers actions were preordained before time began. and Hitler prety much had no ability to not do what he did.

That is true only if it is believed God's will and a human's will are mutually exclusive conditions.

then how can Hitler be held accountable?

Paul addressed this in different ways but the most salient is in Romans 2.

Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Three inescapable conditions must be remembered: 1) those we talk about when discussing "free" will and salvation are ALL inherent and inescapably sinners; people dead in and enslaved to sin, and 2) they do not live up to their own standards, much less God's. Were God to measure each individual by his/her own values (or at least those to which they claim to subscribe) they'd all still fail, and 3) that inability to come for salvation to God unaided is the problem to be solved. To ask, "How can they be held responsible?" misses the point. God did not make them that way. They made themselves that way and are culpable and accountable for the works of their own doing.

ok. so what if one stops believing?

Then his/her faith is not the faith gifted by God for the purpose of salvation.

do they stop being born again (as a person who teaches salvation can be lost would say?

It is not possible to not be born again once born again. Those who teach salvation can be lost implicitly have a God who is either ineffective or not almighty (or both).

 

[makesends]

I have searched scripture and I see no verse that suggests a person is regenerated prior to salvation. Paul even says at one point we were children of wrath. What I see is that faith, regeneration, salvation all occur simultaneously.

I may be somewhat of an outlier in this view, but like the Calvinists, I believe that CAUSALLY, the person must be changed from 'dead in their sins' (Ephesians 2) to alive in Christ. Regenerated, born from above (John 3), before they can do anything spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:14); while unlike the Calvinists, generally, I believe that the temporal experience of what happens is irrelevant. I don't mean I accept your seeing them happening simultaneously —I only mean that how we see them is irrelevant to what actually happens.

Translated to time passage, it is quite possible that they happen simultaneously for some. For others, it can be a stretch over years, and they may think the turning point was when they finally gave their hearts to Christ, but the fact is that God is the one who caused it, and he did so —according to scripture— by the indwelling of the Spirit of God, who generated that faith through which one trusted Christ.

One might say, temporally (according to time passage), that one trusted Christ before they realized they trusted Christ. We know by Scripture (Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 2) that nobody unregenerated can accept the things of Christ, and that, unregenerate, we are all unable to please God, and unable to obey him. We MUST have the mind of the Spirit, in order to have faith, to trust and believe.

How WE see it is irrelevant. Salvation is the work of GOD. It is all of Grace.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I’ve read the article and understand that God draws all people to Himself, the question then becomes, can that drawing be resisted? Scripture certainly seems to indicate so.

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Well first, God doesn't draw "all people" as if to say 'every person' now does he? Not everyone even hears the Gospel before they die.

Since we know that beyond all shadow of doubt, we should probably seek what Scripture means, so that we are using God's understanding to determine a matter.

 

[makesends]

I was just asking if anyone read what is said. can they not understand the basics of it.

It says God loved the world. so that all who believe or look up will be born again.

is this so difficult that the lost (unborn) can not understand it?

It is not that it is too difficult. It is that the lost cannot understand it. It is beyond their mindset. Only after God has made them alive in Christ can they begin to understand what it means, and how it is so. They may have a rudimentary acknowledgement of the mechanics of it, (thought probably don't). Even those who are born again differ in the extreme on the mechanics of it.

remember also. Jesus told Nicodemus as a teacher of the law. he should have understood it.

I do not believe Nicodemus was saved at the time.. yet Jesus said he should have understood it.

a few examples of things like this

One might say that Jesus was 'waking Nicodemus up'. He was bringing him down a peg from thinking he did understand the things of God, because Nicodemus was already under God's thumb. Nicodemus wasn't trying to pin Christ down, the way the Pharisees so often tried. (Later, John 7, Nicodemus defends Jesus, and in John 19 assists Joseph of Arimathea in burying Jesus.) There is reason to believe that the Spirit of God had already given Nicodemus salvific faith, re-birth, before or during the John 3 dialog.

 

[makesends]

I do not think in any discussion,

the words, "your wrong, that is so wrong, it comes from hell. I am right, and there is nothing you can say etc etc." anything like this. should be said.

if we are trying to have an open discussion. You may think these things, but we should keep them to ourselves. (I know I am guilty of not remembering this, so i am talking to myself also)

when we do this, it pretty much stops any conversation.

we may think it.. but we should keep it to ourselves. and try to at the least understand what the other person is saying, if anything, as questions or state why you are struggling to understand their way of thinking

I agree, though there is a time for everything. But, 1 Corinthians 10:23: "Everything is lawful, but not everything is expedient"

 

[Eleanor]

I disagree

I am forgiven because God offered me forgiveness and I recieved it in faith.

And yet, before you were forgiven, you were of the sinful mind (Ro 8:7), by definition: hostile to God, not submitting to God's law, unable to please God (including by believing in him).
You couldn't even see the kingdom of God apart from the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) who does not dwell in the unregenerate, in which condition we are all born.

So by what power did you see and did you believe to forgiveness?

 

[makesends]

changes his mind about stop drinking?

I know many a drunk who stopped drinking. many are not even saved..

I'm just saying that we are fickle. I'm not talking about drunks as such.

makesends said:
Getting out of bed to do what you must is what you most wanted at that particular moment. No?

No,

Yes, it is, or you would not do it.

Yes, I do it almost every morning. I am not a morning person.. I have gotten up angry and complaining that I have to get up so early.

In one sense, no, you did not want to, but you preferred it over the consequences of not getting up. It IS, in that very real sense, what you wanted to do, more than what you wanted (felt like doing.)

But the point here is not that argument. The point is that we always act according to desires, and when we conceive of ourselves as acting against our desires, we are only acting against some of them. When we want to bash someone online, that our better judgement stops us, it is because there is also something, besides bashing someone "who desperately needs it", that we also want, and which, at least at the moment of decision, we prefer over the other desire. Many here use that term —'prefer'— instead of "want".

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is not that it is too difficult. It is that the lost cannot understand it.

Says who?

It is beyond their mindset. Only after God has made them alive in Christ can they begin to understand what it means, and how it is so. They may have a rudimentary acknowledgement of the mechanics of it, (thought probably don't). Even those who are born again differ in the extreme on the mechanics of it.

God can;t make alive dead in sin

One might say that Jesus was 'waking Nicodemus up'. He was bringing him down a peg from thinking he did understand the things of God, because Nicodemus was already under God's thumb. Nicodemus wasn't trying to pin Christ down, the way the Pharisees so often tried. (Later, John 7, Nicodemus defends Jesus, and in John 19 assists Joseph of Arimathea in burying Jesus.) There is reason to believe that the Spirit of God had already given Nicodemus salvific faith, re-birth, before or during the John 3 dialog.

Could be, But he still answered his question. How…