Free will. What is it?

[Eternally-Grateful]

And yet, before you were forgiven, you were of the sinful mind (Ro 8:7), by definition: hostile to God, not submitting to God's law, unable to please God (including by believing in him).
You couldn't even see the kingdom of God apart from the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) who does not dwell in the unregenerate.

So by what power did you see and did you believe to forgiveness?

So God was unable to change my mind. Convince me Or show me his love?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm just saying that we are fickle. I'm not talking about drunks as such.

makesends said:
Getting out of bed to do what you must is what you most wanted at that particular moment. No?

Yes, it is, or you would not do it.

I have to do it.

In one sense, no, you did not want to, but you preferred it over the consequences of not getting up. It IS, in that very real sense, what you wanted to do, more than what you wanted (felt like doing.)

But the point here is not that argument. The point is that we always act according to desires, and when we conceive of ourselves as acting against our desires, we are only acting against some of them. When we want to bash someone online, that our better judgement stops us, it is because there is also something, besides bashing someone "who desperately needs it", that we also want, and which, at least at the moment of decision, we prefer over the other desire. Many here use that term —'prefer'— instead of "want".

I still do not agree

 

[makesends]

to any person it would be an insult my friend.

Morinic by defenition - very foolish or stupid.

I do not know of anyone who being called stupid would not take that as an insult

She wasn't calling you stupid. Oxymoron is about self-conflicting or self-contradictory terms, like, ". It is not related to the word, "moron" or "moronic". Three examples from a search: "jumbo shrimp," "deafening silence," and "bittersweet." "Oxymoronic" can also be more than a word or term, such as a concept or a sentence. "God must obey his own will" is an oxymoronic statement.

 

[makesends]

So God was unable to change my mind. Convince me Or show me his love?

How did you get that from what @Eleanor said? The question has nothing to do with what God is able to do. The question is what he did.

 

[Eleanor]

So God was unable to change my mind. Convince me Or show me his love?

My point precisely. . .God changed your mind, God convinced you, it was not something you did yourself, God did it.

And if God hadn't done it himself, it would never gave happened, for you were spiritually dead in your trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).
The spiritually dead don't and can't make any spiritual response.
God has to "jerk them out" of spiritual death and spiritually stand them on their feet,
which he does in sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) regeneration (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[makesends]

I had to go look up a defenition to get it right.

Total depravity: Protestant theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It teaches that, as a consequence of the Fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious (irresistible) or prevenient (enabling) grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

so saying we can chose. appears to go against this definition.

You may 'choose' to be sinless, but it is a deception. You cannot do it. You may 'choose' Christ, but unless the Spirit of God raises you to life in Christ, you have deceived yourself. If God has not regenerated you, you have still chosen in opposition to God, at enmity with God. If you are not born again, but are instead still dead in your sins (Eph 2) you have still chosen to reject Christ. You did choose, but you cannot choose to do what only the born-again are enabled to do.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How did you get that from what @Eleanor said? The question has nothing to do with what God is able to do. The question is what he did.

It fits.

Does god have to make me alive first.

Or can he convince me first?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

My point precisely. . .God changed your mind, God convinced you, it was not something you did yourself, God did it.

Yes, And because he did it. I believed,

And if God hadn't done it himself, it would never gave happened, for you were dead in your trespasses and sins.
The dead don't and can't respond to anything.

Not true

God has to "jerk them out of the grave" and stand them on their feet, spiritually, which he does in regeneration.

Again, not true

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You may 'choose' to be sinless, but it is a deception. You cannot do it.

Agreed

You may 'choose' Christ, but unless the Spirit of God raises you to life in Christ, you have deceived yourself.

Can not agree. This makes no sense. Again, How can God make me alive in sin>.

If God has not regenerated you, you have still chosen in opposition to God, at enmity with God. If you are not born again, but are instead still dead in your sins (Eph 2) you have still chosen to reject Christ. You did choose, but you cannot choose to do what only the born-again are enabled to do.

God has the ability to bring me to faith, he does not need to go against his own justice and make me alive while I am still in sin.

Why are people afraid of just saying we can call out to God..anyone can.. If we do we are saved, if we do not we are lost

I do not get it

 

[prism]

Why are people afraid of just saying we can call out to God..anyone can.. If we do we are saved, if we do not we are lost

I do not get it

Perhaps Adam could have but since him I don't think fallen man would care to...

Romans 3:10-18 ESV
as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands; no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [13] "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." [14] "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." [15] "Their feet are swift to shed blood; [16] in their paths are ruin and misery, [17] and the way of peace they have not known." [18] "There is no fear of God before their eyes."


Ephesians 2:1-3 ESV
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Perhaps Adam could have but since him I don't think fallen man would care to...

Romans 3:10-18 ESV
as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; [11] no one understands; no one seeks for God. [12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." [13] "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." [14] "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." [15] "Their feet are swift to shed blood; [16] in their paths are ruin and misery, [17] and the way of peace they have not known." [18] "There is no fear of God before their eyes."


Ephesians 2:1-3 ESV
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So God cannot draw you to him?

 

[Hazelelponi]

So God cannot draw you to him?

Irresistible Grace.

What Is Irresistible Grace?

The doctrine of irresistible grace says that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith. A clear grasp of this doctrine is sorely needed today. The c

learn.ligonier.org

Good article.

 

[Eleanor]

Agreed

Can not agree. This makes no sense. Again, How can God make me alive in sin>.

Is God's arm too short?
He gives eternal life to your dead spirit through the new birth, whereby you believe in Jesus Christ, and your sin is remitted.

God has the ability to bring me to faith, he does not need to go against his own justice and make me alive while I am still in sin.

Who made that rule?

We don't make the rules for God, he makes the rules for us, which rules he reveals in Scripture.
And Scripture reveals that making you alive is how he brings you to faith whereby he forgives your sin (Jn 3:3-8).

God does not give spiritual faith to the unregenerate, whose spirits are without eternal life and cannot receive anything spiritual.
He must first raise them to eternal life in the new birth in order for them to be able to receive the spiritual gift of faith (Php 1:29).

Why are people afraid of just saying we can call out to God..anyone can..

Because Jesus said otherwise:
1) "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (Jn 6:65) You can't come to Christ unless God enables you.
We can't just call out to God, unless God enables us.

2) "All that the Father gives me will come to me." (Jn 6:37) The enabled always come. Those who do not come were not enabled and cannot call out to God unless God enables them.

3) "I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (Jn 6:39) The enabled are eternally secure.

If we do we are saved, if we do not we are lost

And we do not unless God enables us, all those he enables do come, therefore, those who do not come were not enabled and cannot come.

I do not get it

Because the NT teaches contrariwise.

1) No one can come to Jesus unless the Father has enabled him (Jn 6:65).

2) All that the Father gives me will come to me (Jn 6:37).

Therefore, those who do not come are not able to come, not able to call out.

 

[Eleanor]

One can make the argument that God does not hold accountable those who don’t hear the Gospel.

It's not about accountability for hearing the gospel.

It's about being born as condemned enemies of God (Ro 5:9), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), with the only way out being the gospel.

Romans 5:12-14 ESV Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

It is about accountability for Adam's sin.

1) "Sinning like the transgression of Adam" is breaking a specific command with a death penalty attached, as in the Ten Commandments.
2) There were no such commandments between Adam and Moses, so there was no sin to count against them.
3) But they died anyway, because sin was in the world (i.e., they were guilty of sin) (Ro 5:12).
4) What sin was in the world (of which they were guilty)?

It was the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-14, 17), which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

So it's not about accountability applying only to those who hear the gospel.
It's about being born condemned by Adam's sin imputed to us (Ro 5:17, 18-19), being "jammed up" and the only way out being faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, And because he did it. I believed,

And because he did it, you were able to all out to him, which you would not have been able to do if he had regenerated you first.

Not true
Again, not true

It is if you know the Biblical meaning of the spiritual death of the unregenerate.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Irresistible Grace.

What Is Irresistible Grace?

The doctrine of irresistible grace says that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith. A clear grasp of this doctrine is sorely needed today. The c

learn.ligonier.org

Good article.

I do not agree grace is irresistible

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It appears we have stopped discussing views on what we think free will is and got into a Calvinist debate. Which is off topic.

[MOD HAT: This is correct. Discussions about regeneration need to have an explicit connection to the topic of free-will. Posts without that connection being stated or explained risk being moved to another thread.]
​

 

[Eleanor]

I do not agree grace is irresistible

What fool would reject that which God in his grace has given him a longing for?

That's not the way reality works.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What fool would reject that which God is his grace has given him a longing for?

That's not the way reality works.

And we have digressed . I could reply in kind. But not worth it

 

[prism]

So God cannot draw you to him?

John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word for draw can be pictured as dragging someone.
To me, that's a picture of against one's will