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FOR or BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins, (Acts 2:38)

Collapsing of categories is actually collapsing of categories. It has nothing to do with a way to reject the truth of scripture and to direct it to man's way of teaching. I showed you where you did so and how you used that collapsing to arrive at an interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 and an incorrect interpretation of Acts 10:34---the two you were collapsing into each other. You did not address that. You neither successfully refuted my claim or did the work of interpreting within their own context.

All you did was dismiss and insult me. You did not deal with my post at all. Would you mind telling me why?
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I do not see where one discredits the other, one says God wants all to repent and the other backs it by saying God does not choose one over the other but wants all.

You are trying to discredit the all in place of a select few which is not what the bible says but a man named Calvin inverted.
 
Okay I think that is grasping at straws. The NT is full of obey commands and the results if you don't obey. That was not good at dismissing the fact that I am incapable to obey the command of God to repent. That is something God requires of me and if I refuse I pay the consequences of it. Are you trying to tell me I don't have to repent?
The misuse of scripture (and category collapse is a misuse of scripture but sense that is so difficult to grasp, I will simply be blunt---misuse of scripture) was when you made the claim that since God tells everyone to repent that means we are able to repent. And then used the passage from Joshua--"choose this day who you will serve" to prove your point.

God does command everyone to repent---everyone. It is our created duty to honor and worship him---that is the command. That we don't do that is what we commanded to repent of. If we could do it---there would be no need of Jesus to die in our place.
I am sorry but I have no ideal what your summary means you might want to try again. What is this suppose to mean?
"It also reverses biblical causality by making repentance the cause of spiritual life rather than its result."
Scripture teaches that repentance is the result of spiritual life. Your analysis has repentance causing spiritual life.
 
The misuse of scripture (and category collapse is a misuse of scripture but sense that is so difficult to grasp, I will simply be blunt---misuse of scripture) was when you made the claim that since God tells everyone to repent that means we are able to repent. And then used the passage from Joshua--"choose this day who you will serve" to prove your point.

God does command everyone to repent---everyone. It is our created duty to honor and worship him---that is the command. That we don't do that is what we commanded to repent of. If we could do it---there would be no need of Jesus to die in our place.

Scripture teaches that repentance is the result of spiritual life. Your analysis has repentance causing spiritual life.
What does Repent mean biblically???? Please define the term for me.
 
What does Repent mean biblically???? Please define the term for me.
Oh look! I already did.
God does command everyone to repent---everyone. It is our created duty to honor and worship him---that is the command. That we don't do that is what we commanded to repent of. I
 
I do not see where one discredits the other, one says God wants all to repent and the other backs it by saying God does not choose one over the other but wants all.
Blatant misrepresentation of what I said.
I never said one discredits the other. I said what one is talking about cannot be taken out of its context and applied to the context of another scripture that is not talking about the same thing or to the same audience. I will show you the context of both that is not going to be forthcoming from you who should be doing it.

Acts 10:34-35 34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

We find the context for this statement in 17-22. Peter has his vision of clean and unclean animals and a voice telling him to eat. Peter says,"No way for I have never eaten anything common or unclean." And the voice replies, "What God has made clean do not call common."

Then Peter is sent to the house of a Gentile (common and unclean and something a Jew would never do) to of all things, preach this gospel that had been given to the Jews. So the "no partiality but people from all nations" refers to no longer only partial to the Jews but men of all nations are saved through the same faith by the same gospel. It does not refer to all persons without exception.
 
Sorry try again that does not define repent. Do you not have a definition for the word?
You have now moved the goal post. You ask me what it meant biblically to repent. Now you just want to know what repent means. It means make a 180. Turn away from to.
 
Blatant misrepresentation of what I said.
I never said one discredits the other. I said what one is talking about cannot be taken out of its context and applied to the context of another scripture that is not talking about the same thing or to the same audience. I will show you the context of both that is not going to be forthcoming from you who should be doing it.

Acts 10:34-35 34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

We find the context for this statement in 17-22. Peter has his vision of clean and unclean animals and a voice telling him to eat. Peter says,"No way for I have never eaten anything common or unclean." And the voice replies, "What God has made clean do not call common."

Then Peter is sent to the house of a Gentile (common and unclean and something a Jew would never do) to of all things, preach this gospel that had been given to the Jews. So the "no partiality but people from all nations" refers to no longer only partial to the Jews but men of all nations are saved through the same faith by the same gospel. It does not refer to all persons without exception.
I am not the one that brought up Acts 10 but yes the gentile is part of the All just as you and I and everyone else. You are making no sense to me I talk simple hillbilly you are going have to dumb it down a little more for me.
 
You are trying to discredit the all in place of a select few which is not what the bible says but a man named Calvin inverted.
Calvin didn't invent anything and that is a cop out of an argument. The letter you refer to was written to the elect. Out of curiosity, take a look at the epistles and notice how many are addressed to "the elect" or the "called". How many places does Paul refer to the "called" and the "elect" the "chosen" when referring to believers?

To save myself and you the time and trouble of looking it up, I asked ChatGPT.

My question
how many places in the NT does Paul refer to believers as "the called" and/or "the elect", and/or the "chosen". Give numbers for each word

Chat's response





1. “The called”

(Greek: κλητοί, κλητός)

≈ 9 occurrences

Clear Pauline uses referring to believers include:

  • Romans 1:6–7
  • Romans 8:28
  • Romans 9:24
  • 1 Corinthians 1:1–2, 24
  • Galatians 1:6
  • Ephesians 4:1, 4
Paul consistently uses “the called” as a status conferred by God, not a universal invitation.

2. “The elect”

(Greek: ἐκλεκτοί, ἐκλογή)

≈ 4 occurrences

Key Pauline texts:

  • Romans 8:33 (“God’s elect”)
  • Romans 11:5 (“election of grace”)
  • Romans 11:7 (“the elect obtained it”)
  • Colossians 3:12 (“as God’s chosen ones” — often translated elect)
Outside Romans, Paul uses the term sparingly, but always soteriologically, never hypothetically.

3. “The chosen”

(Greek: ἐκλέγομαι, ἐκλεκτός)

≈ 3 occurrences

Clear examples:

  • 1 Corinthians 1:27–28 (God choosing the foolish/weak)
  • Ephesians 1:4 (“He chose us in Him”)
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (“God chose you for salvation”)
Paul does not use “chosen” as a mere description of opportunity, but of decisive divine action.


Are you going to ignore that? Or discuss it.
 
"Scripture teaches that repentance is the result of spiritual life. Your analysis has repentance causing spiritual life." (Arial said) Edited my mod. When quoting someone either @them quote in quote box and then respond.

Let's look at this a little closer to see where we differ.
I am commanded to repent of my old way of life and turn to God's way of righteousness. There is no way that I will ever meet the righteousness of God but I must strive to live in the light (the righteousness of Christ) that is something I must do and it happens along with my believing in Gods words and repenting of my old way and being baptized into Christ in the new birth. So yes It is a turning from sin to alive in Christ and living in the new life.

Now tell me where I am wrong and where you are more correct.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Calvin didn't invent anything and that is a cop out of an argument. The letter you refer to was written to the elect. Out of curiosity, take a look at the epistles and notice how many are addressed to "the elect" or the "called". How many places does Paul refer to the "called" and the "elect" the "chosen" when referring to believers?

To save myself and you the time and trouble of looking it up, I asked ChatGPT.

My question
how many places in the NT does Paul refer to believers as "the called" and/or "the elect", and/or the "chosen". Give numbers for each word

Chat's response





1. “The called”

(Greek: κλητοί, κλητός)

≈ 9 occurrences

Clear Pauline uses referring to believers include:

  • Romans 1:6–7
  • Romans 8:28
  • Romans 9:24
  • 1 Corinthians 1:1–2, 24
  • Galatians 1:6
  • Ephesians 4:1, 4


2. “The elect”

(Greek: ἐκλεκτοί, ἐκλογή)

≈ 4 occurrences

Key Pauline texts:

  • Romans 8:33 (“God’s elect”)
  • Romans 11:5 (“election of grace”)
  • Romans 11:7 (“the elect obtained it”)
  • Colossians 3:12 (“as God’s chosen ones” — often translated elect)


3. “The chosen”

(Greek: ἐκλέγομαι, ἐκλεκτός)

≈ 3 occurrences

Clear examples:

  • 1 Corinthians 1:27–28 (God choosing the foolish/weak)
  • Ephesians 1:4 (“He chose us in Him”)
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (“God chose you for salvation”)



Are you going to ignore that? Or discuss it.
The Bible uses the word “elect” (chosen) in a few different ways. To understand it, we need to look at who is called elect, how they are chosen, and what the conditions are.




1. In Scripture, the “elect” are those​


The New Testament consistently shows that God chose a people “in Christ” rather than arbitrarily picking individuals with no conditions.


Key verses​


  • Ephesians 1:4

    “He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.”

👉 The choosing is in Christ — not apart from Him.


  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

👉 Chosen through belief — not without it.


  • 1 Peter 1:2

    “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God… unto obedience…”

👉 Election is connected with obedience.


So the elect are those who are in Christ, believing, obedient.




2. God desires salvation for ALL​


Scripture clearly says God offers salvation to everyone.


Key verses​



👉 Salvation is offered to all.




3. Yet only some become the elect​


Because God gave mankind free will, only those who obey become His chosen people.


Key verses​


  • Matthew 22:14

    “Many are called, but few are chosen.”
  • Hebrews 5:9

    Salvation to all them that obey him.
  • Acts 2:38
    Repent and be baptized… for forgiveness.

👉 The offer is universal, but response determines who is among the elect.




4. Old Testament example​


God chose Israel as a nation, but individuals still had to obey.


  • Deuteronomy 7:6-10

Israel was chosen, yet unbelievers were punished.


So election can be corporate (a chosen people), but individuals must remain faithful.




5. Summary​


According to Scripture:


✔ God desires all to be saved
✔ Christ died for the whole world
✔ The gospel is offered to everyone
✔ Those who believe and obey become the elect


So in simple terms:


👉 God offers salvation to all.
👉 Only those who respond in faith and obedience become His elect.




6. A simple way to explain it​


God chose the plan (salvation in Christ).
We choose whether to be in Christ.


Like Noah’s ark:


  • God chose one ark.
  • Anyone could enter.
  • Only those who entered were saved.

(See Genesis 6–7)



 
"Scripture teaches that repentance is the result of spiritual life. Your analysis has repentance causing spiritual life." (Arial said) Edited my mod. When quoting someone either @them quote in quote box and then respond.

Let's look at this a little closer to see where we differ.
I am commanded to repent of my old way of life and turn to God's way of righteousness. There is no way that I will ever meet the righteousness of God but I must strive to live in the light (the righteousness of Christ) that is something I must do and it happens along with my believing in Gods words and repenting of my old way and being baptized into Christ in the new birth. So yes It is a turning from sin to alive in Christ and living in the new life.

Now tell me where I am wrong and where you are more correct.
I would respond to that if I could see its connection to the quote of mine you gave. This seems more like a response to you asking me for the definition of repentance and my answer.
 
I would respond to that if I could see its connection to the quote of mine you gave. This seems more like a response to you asking me for the definition of repentance and my answer.
it was in response to your claim "Scripture teaches that repentance is the result of spiritual life'. Your analysis has repentance causing spiritual life." I gave my thought on whether it was a result of spiritual life verses 'causing spiritual life."

Now you can give a little more explanation as to what you meant by that statement.
 
The Bible uses the word “elect” (chosen) in a few different ways. To understand it, we need to look at who is called elect, how they are chosen, and what the conditions are.
I did not ask about how "elect" etc, was used in the different ways or in the whole Bible. I specifically asked about Paul's use and in the verses given. You are just throwing a bunch of red herrings into the water, and I will deal with some right now, and the rest later. BTW---name your source and your question.
The New Testament consistently shows that God chose a people “in Christ” rather than arbitrarily picking individuals with no conditions.
You need to change to a different AI source. The sentence structure is so horrible it is misleading. What it is really saying is God chose a people who are already "in Christ". That is made apparent by what is inaccurately said next in the same sentence "rather than arbitrarily picking individuals with no conditions." It weights the scales with incendiary words. Neither the Bible nor Reformed theology teaches that God's election is arbitrary, and the no conditions is related to merit in the person elected. His purpose for electing any is strictly within himself and also is strictly his business.
  • Ephesians 1:4

👉 The choosing is in Christ — not apart from Him.
No, the choosing is to be given to Christ (John 6:37,39,44,65; John 17:2,6,9,24; John 10:27-29.

Eph 1:4-5 is the same doctrine. "{He} chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will---
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13

👉 Chosen through belief — not without it.
Backwards. The NT (who Paul was writing to) were chosen as the first fruits to be saved. That is, at the beginning of the church. And that resulted in belief.
 
I did not ask about how "elect" etc, was used in the different ways or in the whole Bible. I specifically asked about Paul's use and in the verses given. You are just throwing a bunch of red herrings into the water, and I will deal with some right now, and the rest later. BTW---name your source and your question.

You need to change to a different AI source.

No, the choosing is to be given to Christ (John 6:37,39,44,65; John 17:2,6,9,24; John 10:27-29.

Eph 1:4-5 is the same doctrine. "{He} chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will---

Backwards. The NT (who Paul was writing to) were chosen as the first fruits to be saved. That is, at the beginning of the church. And that resulted in belief.
My AI source is the same Chat GTP that you used my dear sister.

It doesn't matter whether you asked how it was used in the whole bible we need to see the context of the whole bible rather than cherry pick a few verses we think make our case.

All I did was showed you with scripture who the elect is. You are arguing with scripture not me.

What you are missing or refusing to see is that God had planed how he was going to Add to the kingdom from the beginning of time. God Knew at creation that mankind would fall from grace and planned then how he would redeem mankind back to his grace. It is through the gospel call that God chooses the elect those that respond to hi calling the called out.

The sentence structure is so horrible it is misleading. What it is really saying is God chose a people who are already "in Christ". That is made apparent by what is inaccurately said next in the same sentence "rather than
The sentence structure is so horrible it is misleading. What it is really saying is God chose a people who are already "in Christ". That is made apparent by what is inaccurately said next in the same sentence "rather than arbitrarily picking individuals with no conditions." It weights the scales with incendiary words. Neither the Bible nor Reformed theology teaches that God's election is arbitrary, and the no conditions is related to merit in the person elected. His purpose for electing any is strictly within himself and also is strictly his business.
picking individuals with no conditions." It weights the scales with incendiary words. Neither the Bible nor Reformed theology teaches that God's election is arbitrary, and the no conditions is related to merit in the person elected. His purpose for electing any is strictly within himself and also is strictly his business.
again with the big fancy words to a hillbilly doesn't help if hillbilly doesn't understand the meaning of "arbitrarily" or "incendiary" is there not another way to say the quoted section?

Eph 1:4-5 is saying we are the elect through the grace the FAITH by obeying the gospel we became the elect.
 
To modify the word of God destroys it effective. Adding terms like "collapsing of categories" is merely man's way to reject the truth of scripture to divert to man's way of teaching.

Mod Hat: This post uses inflammatory and marginalizing language. It falsely accuses, makes assumptions about the character and faith of the one being responded to. It addresses the person and not the topic or argument etc., etc. Violation of rule 2.2
That is what is known as a strawman argument. @Arial did not "add [a term] like 'collapsing of categories'" to scripture. She wrote it describing to your way of treating terminology in scripture that belongs in separate categories as though they are one and the same category. Let me illustrate by use of something that I heard in adult Sunday School class. The teacher was the kind of guy I call an Evangelist---not well taught in doctrine. He said that it is impossible for a born again believer to be possessed by a demon because he is already inhabited by the Spirit of God. Do you see the two categories in his statement treated as one? That teacher was assuming that the spirit world operates according to physical principles.


The same thing is being done in a few other threads here, by a person who claims that the elect are (variously) justified at the cross or justified before the foundation of the world, before they are born or even had the faith through which the Bible says we are justified. Do you see the conflation of categories? It is true that we are justified by what Christ did, and it is true that we are justified according to God's decree. But we are also justified by (through, from) faith, present day. WHAT God has done is not WHEN he did it.

That is what you are doing, which Arial criticized, and now, with this last post you did it again, claiming that she was adding the term "collapsing categories" to scripture. She did not add it to scripture. She used it to describe your faulty hermeneutic. But you make it sound like her criticizing of your method is the same as criticizing scripture, since, apparently, your method is faultless.
 
It seems anyone can say anything they want about me and it is fine but I can not say anything in response without it being wrong. where is the fairness.

I posted one scripture 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and she said I posted 'collapsing of categories' I did not post any other scripture so how could it collapsed she is the one that brought in another scripture so she is the one that collapsed it.

Just really do not understand you all logic here sorry not trying to get banned but really do not understand the logic.
 
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I do not see where one discredits the other, one says God wants all to repent and the other backs it by saying God does not choose one over the other but wants all.

You are trying to discredit the all in place of a select few which is not what the bible says but a man named Calvin inverted.
So you are claiming that God has set up a system where he doesn't get what he intended to accomplish? This is only a grand experiment?
 
It seems anyone can say anything they want about me and it is fine but I can not say anything in response without it being wrong. where is the fairness.
Notice, just as @Arial has noted, that you are not answering the questions. You are not engaging, but only repeating yourself, and, now, complaining.
I posted one scripture 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and she said I posted 'collapsing of categories' I did not post any other scripture so how could it collapsed she is the one that brought in another scripture so she is the one that collapsed it.
Your use of that one verse was in comparison with the other, as I remember, concerning "all" necessarily meaning everyone. Nevertheless, that is immaterial. She was not, as I said, referring to scripture, but to your use of scripture, in collapsing categories. I'll let her explain more specifically. But I call it employing a category error, or conflating categories.
Just really do not understand you all logic here sorry not trying to get banned but really do not understand the logic.
There's mostly only two problems that get people banned here, and those are after long long trails of the same failure on their part to engage substantively with the rebuttals but instead to repeat their same faulty arguments. The other is for repeatedly assaulting other members, (usually staff), with complaints, as if that was helping their arguments. There are plenty other reasons, but those are the most common, I think. This site exists for the purpose of debate and discussion, not off topic commentary on fairness or other complaints.

And, to be fair, if you were staff, you too would admit some degree of hypocrisy, I think. I do. I try not to be hypocritical, but I admit I am. I tell people don't expect fairness. You don't get it in life, and you won't get it here. Just be here, (if you are here), for the purpose of discussion and debate. Please, as you have been asked before, engage with the substance of the arguments, without repeating yourself ad nauseum. It is our job to moderate, which we do by several different means, the most common of which to speak directly to the issues with simple rebuke or suggestion, without assessing penalties or editing text. It is what staff is supposed to do.

So far, what I keep hearing you repeat, whether in so many words or by underlying assumption, is that the 'surface reading' or 'plain reading' is the Word of God, and thus, what you read is all we should be considering, as it looks at first pass. THAT is either directly, or indirectly, your claim and your defense of your theology. I don't even know if you can see how that is circular reasoning.
 
It seems anyone can say anything they want about me and it is fine but I can not say anything in response without it being wrong. where is the fairness.
What do you mean by "where is the fairness? From the sentence it appears that what would be fair is if we agreed with you whether we do agree or not. That is not a measure of "fair". That is, if we are going to be fair, we should accept your response as valid truth. But forums are not designed for "one size fits all" and mutual agreement that "your truth is as good as my truth."

On this forum anyway, it is designed to investigate with one another the teachings of scripture. Not "what does this mean to you (me)" but "What does the scripture actually mean". The rules established are actually designed to promote learning and discussing. Fellowship among believers.

So, when you post a scripture and give its meaning, and I can look at it and see that the interpretation did not arrive from a place of its actual context but was used incorrectly; and if then I can show how it was used incorrectly, and show what it means if it is used correctly, that is not being unfair. And if my doing so is derived, not from my own bias (and of course I do have one as does everyone else) but from the clear meaning of scriptures themselves, and I present my argument from that place (which I try to always be careful to do, but also recognize that there are times when I get sloppy) that is not unfair. It is a discussion.

The poster who disagrees with me, in this case you, then has the opportunity to show me where and how I am wrong if I am, or if they think I am. And I will pay close attention. If I still think your rebuttal is incorrect, I have the opportunity to counter it in the same manner as I presented it in the first place---following correct hermeneutics (the science or rules of using proper interpretive tools). And so on and so on. The counters and rebuttals on both sides must be directly addressing what is being rebutted and needs to be done properly, not just by repeating the same assertion. In order to do that, one has to carefully read and pay attention to what the person is saying and address its points. And that is what you are not doing.

This entire post if off topic of the OP. And it is addressing you but also addressing the post that you made so there is no option but to address you and not the OP topic. I, as admin (or mod) have the right to do that, whereas members do not. Does that mean I don't have to abide by the rules, but you do? No. I am not insulting you, being rude etc. I am addressing an issue that you yourself brought up. It is my job. And I am doing so in the spirit of teaching and explaining. If you, as a member, have issues with anything I have said here, that needs to be done in a DM (so as not to continue this thread off topic and nothing but personal exchanges) with myself or any staff member of your choice. Or all of us or some of us, your choice.
 
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