FOR or BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins, (Acts 2:38)

[BillyBob65]

You know you're pretty persistent in trying to pass this false gospel, I'll give you that. I really think you actually believe it. And I am sorry, I do not mean to be disrespectful to you, but it is very important, and we are obligated that false gospels need to be pointed out. Since you bring this stuff to this forum, you press us to be ready and act. In the word we are told, preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 2 Tim 4:2.

I ask you to reconsider what scripture teaches about Jesus Christ. "We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone."

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6.

You have not dealt with the scriptures I shown that are clearly written but reject them and try to switch the discussion to belief only but that is not what the scriptures teach. It is actually quite funny that you call me the false teacher when it is your teaching that is not in line with what the word really does teach. I realize you have put much time in fine tuning your false doctrine but I suggest you get back to what God really is teaching . He who ears to hear let him hear what the scriptures say

 

[Carbon]

You have not dealt with the scriptures I shown that are clearly written but reject them and try to switch the discussion to belief only but that is not what the scriptures teach. It is actually quite funny that you call me the false teacher when it is your teaching that is not in line with what the word really does teach. I realize you have put much time in fine tuning your false doctrine but I suggest you get back to what God really is teaching . He who ears to hear let him hear what the scriptures say

You have not dealt with the scripture that a few of us here have clearly shown you. But you insist on continuing with what the scriptures do not teach, ie, that we are saved by being water baptized. I do appreciate, in a way, however, you being here and trying to spread a false gospel; you are helping with the false teaching of "baptismal regeneration" being exposed. So thank you for that. This is, after all, "Christ centered apologetics ministry." So, you are welcome to stay, as long as you do not get disrespectful. So, have fun, but keep it civil. I pray the Lord may open your eyes to his truth.

 

[BillyBob65]

You have not dealt with the scripture that a few of us here have clearly shown you. But you insist on continuing with what the scriptures do not teach, ie, that we are saved by being water baptized. I do appreciate, in a way, however, you being here and trying to spread a false gospel; you are helping with the false teaching of "baptismal regeneration" being exposed. So thank you for that. This is, after all, "Christ centered apologetics ministry." So, you are welcome to stay, as long as you do not get disrespectful. So, have fun, but keep it civil. I pray the Lord may open your eyes to his truth.

I have dealt with all of the scriptures you gave I even showed how they harmonize with the teaching on baptism. That is where we disagree the most therefore the reason for more in-lighted discussion on that particular subject. You just can not deal with that part of scripture in the truth in which it is given. You say that in Acts 2:38 that the for is suppose to be because of and I have shown with scripture that is not the case. The main 2 things I disagree with you is on baptism and have shown with scripture why and also your insistence of faith alone and given many scriptures why. Jesus himself said it is belief and baptism but you reject what Jesus said so therefore I have to reject your teaching cause it is contradiction to what Jesus is teaching. I believe Jesus when he says believe and be baptized. I believe him when he says baptism washes away my sin. I believe him when he says it is in baptism that i am calling on the name of the Lord, I believe him when he says it is in baptism that I put on Christ. I do believe what he says and teach what he says can you tell me why the scriptures that say all I have said are not true? Take each scripture and show me why it does not mean what it says. Lets take the scripture on baptism and seek out the true meaning not what we think they should say.

 

[Arial]

The same place where it says faith only.

The Bible teaches faith by grace through faith explicitly in Eph 2. It explicitly says that faith is a gift of God (because if it weren't it would be faith plus works) followed by "not of works so that no one can boast. That equals faith only. " Quit boasting and stop teaching others to boast.

So back to my question. Where does the Bible explicitly say that the Spirit uses the word to baptize in water?

It is a biblical fact that Jesus and the spirit only uses the words God gave them to teach thus they teach it and it is through the teaching that any action is done. It is just as John 4:1 is trying to get you to understand even though Jesus did not do the actual dipping in water it is said he baptized more than John because he taught it.

It does not help your case to just make stuff up. Evryone in this thread is very familiar with Scripture and they know that you just made up your assesment of John 4:1.

They believed the teaching of Gods word for it teaches the name of Christ and received the right to become did not say was then declared the children.
who were born not of blood (by human birth) or of the will of flesh of man (the teachings of man) but of God ( in accordance to Gods word.)

They believed because they were born of God (exactly what Jesus said in John 3). It does not say "who were born not of human birth or the teachings of man in accordance to God's word."

Not of blood (not a natural birth but a supernatural birth} rather than by design of human parents, and not by anyone willing it, but they were reborn (out of Adam and into Christ) by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. IOW God gave them a new heart, one that turned towards him in love instead of the old stoney heart that was at enmity with him (also known as repentance).

 

[BillyBob65]

The Bible teaches faith by grace through faith explicitly in Eph 2. It explicitly says that faith is a gift of God (because if it weren't it would be faith plus works) followed by "not of works so that no one can boast. That equals faith only. " Quit boasting and stop teaching others to boast.

So back to my question. Where does the Bible explicitly say that the Spirit uses the word to baptize in water?

It does not help your case to just make stuff up. Evryone in this thread is very familiar with Scripture and they know that you just made up your assesment of John 4:1.

They believed because they were born of God (exactly what Jesus said in John 3). It does not say "who were born not of human birth or the teachings of man in accordance to God's word."

Not of blood (not a natural birth but a supernatural birth} rather than by design of human parents, and not by anyone willing it, but they were reborn (out of Adam and into Christ) by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. IOW God gave them a new heart, one that turned towards him in love instead of the old stoney heart that was at enmity with him (also known as repentance).

i posted a response to this was it removed or what happened to it

 

[BillyBob65]

The Bible teaches faith by grace through faith explicitly in Eph 2. It explicitly says that faith is a gift of God (because if it weren't it would be faith plus works) followed by "not of works so that no one can boast. That equals faith only. " Quit boasting and stop teaching others to boast.

So back to my question. Where does the Bible explicitly say that the Spirit uses the word to baptize in water?

It does not help your case to just make stuff up. Evryone in this thread is very familiar with Scripture and they know that you just made up your assesment of John 4:1.

They believed because they were born of God (exactly what Jesus said in John 3). It does not say "who were born not of human birth or the teachings of man in accordance to God's word."

Not of blood (not a natural birth but a supernatural birth} rather than by design of human parents, and not by anyone willing it, but they were reborn (out of Adam and into Christ) by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. IOW God gave them a new heart, one that turned towards him in love instead of the old stoney heart that was at enmity with him (also known as repentance).

Lets get the full context of Ephesians 2:8 by starting at the beginning of this letter to the saints at Ephesus
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
This relates back to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The above reference to the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is where we have obtained an inheritance and it was according to the will of God his plan of salvation.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

See when you trusted in the gospel which you obeyed in baptism see verse 7 you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

See compare this with what he said in Romans 6 where he said this was when you were baptized into his death.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now see that the grace in verse 5 is what God worked in baptism in Acts 2:38 / Romans 6:3ff Faith is not the gift salvation is the gift and it does not come from the works of the law as the Jews want to cling to but through THE Faith that was once delivered. For by God's workmanship in baptism as we see here and Romans 6 we were created in Christ Jesus go do good works of righteousness which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

These verse restate that it is in baptism that God has done this gracious deed of transformation.
So see I am not boasting but giving God the praise for the grace he has given me. So It does not help your case to just make stuff up take the word for what is says.

So back to my question. Where does the Bible explicitly say that the Spirit uses the word to baptize in water? Evryone in this thread is very familiar with Scripture and they know that you just made up your assesment of John 4:1.

What did I make up does John 4:1 not say in black and whit in the KJV that Jesus baptized more even though he did not do the dipping but had his disciples to carry it out?
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

They believed because they were born of God (exactly what Jesus said in John 3). It does not say "who were born not of human birth or the teachings of man in accordance to God's word."

Again let me point you to Romans 6 where Paul tells us how we were born again the new birth transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ. Paul said it was when we were baptized Acts 2:38 that we were baptized in his death (the cross the blood of Christ) it is clearly recorded in plain understandable words from God. Please read what the scriptures are telling you.

Not of blood (not a natural birth but a supernatural birth} rather than by design of human parents, and not by anyone willing it, but they were reborn (out of Adam and into Christ) by the will of God through the Holy Spirit. IOW God gave them a new heart, one that turned towards him in love instead of the old stoney heart that was at enmity with him (also known as repentance).

Yes and Paul told you in Romans 6 how God preformed this transforming work. It was through the baptism in Jesus name that we were baptized with where we were baptized into his death (the cross the blood of Christ) in which GOD did HIS transforming work.

 

[BillyBob65]

Okay I reposted my response maybe I did something wrong when trying to post it before hopefully it was not removed but my mistake.

 

[Paul]

Yes circumcision of the foreskin in the Old testament was the way they entered into the Old testament covenant in the New testament we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to enter into the New testament covenant so yes there is a connection there of the similarity both of them is the way you enter into the covenants

To test to see if one is in the faith and belongs to Christ is Christ in us which is the baptism of God not water. Sealed in Christ by the Spirit.

I don't know why anyone who proclaims faith in Christ would refuse to be baptised. But to say God can't pour out His Spirit without such a water baptisim is stating God is bound. God is not bound. For example its written man is apointed once to die then face judgment. But its clear to us that Jesus raised Lazerus from the dead and we believe in his orignal body that died again. God was not bound to die once. Also we believe Enoch and Elijah were taken alive into heaven, They did not die once.

Its shown one must believe with all their heart before being baptized. The Spirit came upon Cornelius and his household then they were baptized. God was not bound.

In addition the man on the cross wasn't baptized yet Jesus who has authority to forgive sin forgave his sins. "Today you shall be with me in paradise"

Baptism isn't even stated here even though baptism and the Spiritural reality have been shown together several times elsewhere.

The message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved

But again I believe those who profess such faith would be the ones asking, "can anything keep me from being baptized in the name of the one I am proclaiming my lord and savior"

Yet God is not bound. We are saved by grace through faith and this not of ourselves.

 

[BillyBob65]

To test to see if one is in the faith and belongs to Christ is Christ in us which is the baptism of God not water. Sealed in Christ by the Spirit.

I don't know why anyone who proclaims faith in Christ would refuse to be baptised. But to say God can't pour out His Spirit without such a water baptisim is stating God is bound. God is not bound. For example its written man is apointed once to die then face judgment. But its clear to us that Jesus raised Lazerus from the dead and we believe in his orignal body that died again. God was not bound to die once. Also we believe Enoch and Elijah were taken alive into heaven, They did not die once.

Its shown one must believe with all their heart before being baptized. The Spirit came upon Cornelius and his household then they were baptized. God was not bound.

In addition the man on the cross wasn't baptized yet Jesus who has authority to forgive sin forgave his sins. "Today you shall be with me in paradise"

Baptism isn't even stated here even though baptism and the Spiritural reality have been shown together several times elsewhere.

The message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved

But again I believe those who profess such faith would be the ones asking, "can anything keep me from being baptized in the name of the one I am proclaiming my lord and savior"

Yet God is not bound. We are saved by grace through faith and this not of ourselves.

No one is binding God but accepting the terms he has put in place. Your post is showing your lack knowing how God works. God made a new covenant with us and we simply must accept the terms.

 

[Arial]

Lets get the full context of Ephesians 2:8 by starting at the beginning of this letter to the saints at Ephesus
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
This relates back to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6

The book of Ephesians does not begin with 1:7 and is in no way connected to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 as to baptism. That is confirmation bias. It is eisegesis, not exegesis.

I know that you are making an effort to let scripture interpret scripture and engage in the hermeneutic of exegesis through letting various clear scriptures interpret those that are more difficult. But they have to be speaking of the same subject. You can't say that Eph 2:8 is referring back to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 and that they are all speaking of baptism and therefore forgiveness of sins are remitted by water baptism, when they are not. And you can't just say it; it must be demonstrated. So far all you have done in the entire thread is just say it while ignoring the correct use of handling Scripture that has been presented to you. The correct handling of Scripture has shown again and again that one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone. It has been shown from many places and in many ways, that water baptism is an outward expression of what has taken place inwardly through faith. Ignoring the work of others in order to hang on to your own false teaching will never produce the results you expect.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The above reference to the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is where we have obtained an inheritance and it was according to the will of God his plan of salvation.

There is no reference to water baptism in that verse. You have imposed it into the scriptures, also known as eisegesis.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

See when you trusted in the gospel which you obeyed in baptism see verse 7 you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

What that verse says is those he is writing to trusted in Christ---no mention of water baptism. Eisegesis. It says that believing is what sealed them with the Holy Spirit. Nothing about water baptism. Eisegeses. You are actually using verses to support remission of sin by water baptism that soundly refute it.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

See compare this with what he said in Romans 6 where he said this was when you were baptized into his death.

This is describing the condition of the natural man who is dead in his sins with no way to escape and God himself bringing them to life by placing us in Christ. Romans 6 is describing what water baptism represents, not that sin is remitted by water baptism.

Faith is not the gift salvation is the gift and it does not come from the works of the law as the Jews want to cling to but through THE Faith that was once delivered. For by God's workmanship in baptism as we see here and Romans 6 we were created in Christ Jesus go do good works of righteousness which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If salvation comes by grace through faith, then faith must also come by the grace of God. Otherwise, it would cease to be grace. You have added the word "baptism" called "baptism" the workmanship of God in that passage, and that is eisegesis. Adding things to a scripture in order to make it say what you want it to. Bad handling of the word of God.

These verse restate that it is in baptism that God has done this gracious deed of transformation.

It neither restates it nor states it. Baptism is not mentioned in those verses, the power and grace and mercy of God in uniting Jew and Gentile---one body---is. Eisegesis.

So see I am not boasting but giving God the praise for the grace he has given me. So It does not help your case to just make stuff up take the word for what is says.

When you were baptized, who went into the baptismal water? Then it was you who performed the act (work) that remitted your sins. In truth, every post you make about baptism remitting sins is boasting. "I have my sins remitted because I got water baptized and if you didn't no matter what you believe, your sins are still held against you. I am obedient and you are not. I know more than you."

What did I make up does John 4:1 not say in black and whit in the KJV that Jesus baptized more even though he did not do the dipping but had his disciples to carry it out?
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

In what world does that explicitly say that the Spirit uses the word to baptize with water? Eisegesis does not count as being explicit.

Again let me point you to Romans 6 where Paul tells us how we were born again the new birth transformed from dead in sin to alive in Christ. Paul said it was when we were baptized Acts 2:38 that we were baptized in his death (the cross the blood of Christ) it is clearly recorded in plain understandable words from God. Please read what the scriptures are telling you.

Are those the only two verses you know or care about and the entire Bible stands or falls on those two verses? Neither of those verses is discussing being born again. Jesus discussed it. John in John 1 discussed it. That is where one needs to go to find out how we are born again.

Yes and Paul told you in Romans 6 how God preformed this transforming work. It was through the baptism in Jesus name that we were baptized with where we were baptized into his death (the cross the blood of Christ) in which GOD did HIS transforming work.

If that were the case Paul would have contradicted himself a thousand times over in his letters. He constantly tells us we are saved by faith, justified by faith---period. If one is saved and if one is justified it is because their sins are forgiven. In Romans 6 Paul is describing what baptism is representing, he is describing the gospel that it is preaching. Christ, Son of God, Son of man, was crucified, died, was buried, and conquered sin and death, and rose from the grave. And so too will we.

 

[Paul]

No one is binding God but accepting the terms he has put in place. Your post is showing your lack knowing how God works. God made a new covenant with us and we simply must accept the terms.

Yes, it is stating no one can be saved apart from water baptism and your holding God to that statement which is not for you to state. God can and does show mercy. He is not bound. Jesus stated those who live by believing in Him would never die.

Those who are condemned as those who don't believe as there is no reconciliation in unbelief and one's guilt remains on them.

We are not speaking in terms of a covenant but in terms of the forgiveness of our sins.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Its defined for us=>For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

I am not against baptism. And again, I'm not sure why anyone who proclaims faith in Christ wouldn't seek to be baptised. But I put the importance in faith in Christ not water baptism. Those who hold to the testimony of Christ and obey Gods commands.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes to have your sins remitted and to receive the indwelling spirit. That is what Jesus said the reason he gave the command to be baptized in his name.

You are saved and receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE getting water baptized

 

[JesusFan]

That is true and you must understand God when he tries to tell you that baptism is that grace. It is when you join Christ at the cross. It is when you put on Christ. It is the new birth. It is when sin is washed away. It is calling on the name of the Lord. How many more times does scripture has to say it for you to understand it. God said it therefore it is truth and life.

What washes away my sins was the blood of jesus, not the water

 

[BillyBob65]

You are saved and receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE getting water baptized

The problem with that is you can not confirm that with scripture because scripture says differently.

 

[BillyBob65]

What washes away my sins was the blood of jesus, not the water

Yes I totally agree I never said differently but that happens in the baptism in the name Of Jesus Christ see Romans 6

 

[BillyBob65]

1.Yes, it is stating no one can be saved apart from water baptism and your holding God to that statement which is not for you to state. God can and does show mercy. He is not bound. Jesus stated those who live by believing in Him would never die.

2. Those who are condemned as those who don't believe as there is no reconciliation in unbelief and one's guilt remains on them.

3. We are not speaking in terms of a covenant but in terms of the forgiveness of our sins.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Its defined for us=>For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

4.Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

5. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

6.I am not against baptism. And again, I'm not sure why anyone who proclaims faith in Christ wouldn't seek to be baptised. But I put the importance in faith in Christ not water baptism. Those who hold to the testimony of Christ and obey Gods commands.

I have numbered your replies above so I don't have to copy and paste each as a quote.

1. God has placed his plan to redeem man into place. He is no longer changing the terms he set in place. He was working toward this finale plan from the beginning of time and finished it with the cross so it is now set everyone is saved in the same manner no variations now that the cross has fulfilled his plan. No one is binding that on God it was his choice to do so and stands by it. I am sorry you can not get that from scripture but that is what scripture teaches.

2. I agree with you here

3. Again you need to study more yes we are in a covenant with God the old has been replaced with the new and if you belong to God you are in the new covenant or you are not part of the family. Again that is what the scriptures teach and they teach just how you enter into the covenant which is through the blood of Christ which as Romans 6 says we obtain through the baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ.

4. Yes and Jesus said that one who believes in him is one who keeps his word and does as he teaches. Jesus taught baptism.

5. I have already covered this go back and read what I have given in response to Arial above in post #90

6. You really need to understand what the scriptures teach on baptism therefore the reason we study this topic to fully understand. We agree that we have to have faith but do not fully understand that, that faith includes what is taught about baptism. Jesus connects the two in so many scriptures and therefore we must understand why. Jesus has made clear just why he commands baptism, what is accomplished in this act.

 

[BillyBob65]

1. The book of Ephesians does not begin with 1:7 and is in no way connected to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 as to baptism. That is confirmation bias. It is eisegesis, not exegesis.

2. I know that you are making an effort to let scripture interpret scripture and engage in the hermeneutic of exegesis through letting various clear scriptures interpret those that are more difficult. But they have to be speaking of the same subject. You can't say that Eph 2:8 is referring back to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 and that they are all speaking of baptism and therefore forgiveness of sins are remitted by water baptism, when they are not. And you can't just say it; it must be demonstrated. So far all you have done in the entire thread is just say it while ignoring the correct use of handling Scripture that has been presented to you. The correct handling of Scripture has shown again and again that one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone. It has been shown from many places and in many ways, that water baptism is an outward expression of what has taken place inwardly through faith. Ignoring the work of others in order to hang on to your own false teaching will never produce the results you expect.

3. There is no reference to water baptism in that verse. You have imposed it into the scriptures, also known as eisegesis.

4. What that verse says is those he is writing to trusted in Christ---no mention of water baptism. Eisegesis. It says that believing is what sealed them with the Holy Spirit. Nothing about water baptism. Eisegeses. You are actually using verses to support remission of sin by water baptism that soundly refute it.

5. This is describing the condition of the natural man who is dead in his sins with no way to escape and God himself bringing them to life by placing us in Christ. Romans 6 is describing what water baptism represents, not that sin is remitted by water baptism.

6. If salvation comes by grace through faith, then faith must also come by the grace of God. Otherwise, it would cease to be grace. You have added the word "baptism" called "baptism" the workmanship of God in that passage, and that is eisegesis. Adding things to a scripture in order to make it say what you want it to. Bad handling of the word of God.

7. It neither restates it nor states it. Baptism is not mentioned in those verses, the power and grace and mercy of God in uniting Jew and Gentile---one body---is. Eisegesis.

8. When you were baptized, who went into the baptismal water? Then it was you who performed the act (work) that remitted your sins. In truth, every post you make about baptism remitting sins is boasting. "I have my sins remitted because I got water baptized and if you didn't no matter what you believe, your sins are still held against you. I am obedient and you are not. I know more than you."

9. In what world does that explicitly say that the Spirit uses the word to baptize with water? Eisegesis does not count as being explicit.

10. Are those the only two verses you know or care about and the entire Bible stands or falls on those two verses? Neither of those verses is discussing being born again. Jesus discussed it. John in John 1 discussed it. That is where one needs to go to find out how we are born again.

11. If that were the case Paul would have contradicted himself a thousand times over in his letters. He constantly tells us we are saved by faith, justified by faith---period. If one is saved and if one is justified it is because their sins are forgiven. In Romans 6 Paul is describing what baptism is representing, he is describing the gospel that it is preaching. Christ, Son of God, Son of man, was crucified, died, was buried, and conquered sin and death, and rose from the grave. And so too will we.

I have numbered the replies you have made to make it easier to respond .
1. Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Yes it does relate to Acts 2:38 for it says there to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ For the remission of sin and in this verse above it is talking about how they were redeemed and Romans 6 explains this very act. You just don't accept the teaching.

2. I will have to break this one down You said

I know that you are making an effort to let scripture interpret scripture and engage in the hermeneutic of exegesis through letting various clear scriptures interpret those that are more difficult. But they have to be speaking of the same subject. You can't say that Eph 2:8 is referring back to Acts 2:38 and Romans 6 and that they are all speaking of baptism and therefore forgiveness of sins are remitted by water baptism, when they are not. And you can't just say it; it must be demonstrated.

This is a false claim. I have shown you the scriptures that do indeed demonstrate the connection. They are even almost word for word but you keep rejecting them.

So far all you have done in the entire thread is just say it while ignoring the correct use of handling Scripture that has been presented to you. The correct handling of Scripture has shown again and again that one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone. It has been shown from many places and in many ways, that water baptism is an outward expression of what has taken place inwardly through faith. Ignoring the work of others in order to hang on to your own false teaching will never produce the results you expect.

No I am sorry but this remark applies to you. I have not discredited that one has to believe but rather embraced, that but also as Jesus said and be baptized. I have given support for that. Scripture after scripture have I given that supports that. You see and read them but reject the true teaching of the scripture ,and take the work of Gods transformation out of it, and say it is just a work man does to show what God did outside of the baptism, but scripture does not support your view. Over and over scripture teaches that God is actively at work in the baptism in Christ name, transforming us from dead in sin to alive in Christ. It is you that takes the cross out of baptism not me.

3. Yes there is in Acts 2 it tells how we have obtained an inheritance. It was by submitting to the will of the Farther.

4. It is you that does not understand what is said there because of your bias. Let us examine the verse.
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Now when we believed the gospel which means we submitted to the call we were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise. Now where were we promised the indwelling? It was in Acts 2:38. You got to keep scriptures flowing in union. It is you that is not allowing scripture to speak for itself. Paul has covered this many times.

5. see this is proof you are not letting scripture define itself. Ephesian 2:1-6 and Romans 6 are practically word of word. Paul records both as being when we meet Jesus at the cross for the cleansing blood. It is you that is divorcing the cross from those passages where Paul is saying it is a reality.

6. I have shown you where Paul himself is talking about baptism being part of that grace. He did it in the verses above this particular verse connecting all together to THE FAITH that once and for all was given. The faith is the saving faith God sent out it is the gospel it calls for a response. It is you that keeps rejecting that even though you have been shown how they all connect together. It is not bad handling of the word but rather rightly dividing the word to harmonize the word.

7. Ephesians 2:11-22 is the same thing Paul told the Romans in Romans 6 and made sure to let them know that is was when they were baptized in Christ name that they were baptized into his death. He is saying the same here to The Ephesians compare the two letters and you will see it .

8. This is just rude and an attack om me that you and others have warned me not to do so why is it okay for you to do this? To answer your attack though it was God doing he work in baptism. I have shown you in scripture where it says that and you reject it and pride yourself in your complete ignorance of what scripture is saying. GOD DOES THE TRANSFORMING WORK never do I take that credit from him it is you that takes the credit from him.

9. The bible teaches that all the words recorded as scripture is Gods words. Not even Jesus spoke nothing that his Farther did not give him. That is bible 101 elementary every bible teacher knows. The spirit only works through the words of God elementary. The bible is clear on this. I am surprised I have to tell you this.

10. No I know many other verses and have pointed to them but you can't grasp the teaching in those verse that tie everything together so I have to keep pointing back to them. As for being born again is only taught in John you need to get better at rightly dividing the word. In John Jesus could not fully explain what he meant by being born again to Nicodemus because the time had not fully come but in Romans 6 Paul does explain the new birth (born again) because the time has now been fulfilled. Again elementary my dear sister.

11. Listen to Paul Acts 19:1-5
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Verse 2 now listen to what Paul is asking "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Now what was there answer 'We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." so when they believed they should have gotten the indwelling spirit but they had not even heard such a thing why?

verse 3 Paul "Unto what then were ye baptized?" You see Paul says that when they believed was when they were baptized. What was there answer? "And they said, Unto John's baptism." Now if baptism doesn't matter it is just and empty ritual as you say why was Paul's concern?

Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. Why Acts 2:38 it is in the baptism that Christ is to baptize with that the indwelling spirit is given. Therefore Paul's does just that When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

See scripture back scripture to give the true meaning of what it is trying to portray. We just have to study without bias to see what it is teaching. Many verses let us know that Acts 2:38 really is teaching Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. for we have seen where it says Paul was baptized to wash away his sin it was him calling upon the name of the Lord and we see where Paul verifies that is where we receive the indwelling spirit just as God had said in Acts 2:38 we have to let the scriptures do the talking.

It is not Paul contradicting himself it is your bias getting in the way of scriptural truth. To believe is to believe the words of God all of them and take them for the truth as recorded without trying to make them fit our bias.
In Romans 6 Paul clearly says that when you were baptized i was into Christ death. That is a what happened remark not what is symbolized but what God is doing. I understand why you must insist on the symbolic because the true spiritual work won't fit your bias.

 

[Paul]

I have numbered your replies above so I don't have to copy and paste each as a quote.

1. God has placed his plan to redeem man into place. He is no longer changing the terms he set in place. He was working toward this finale plan from the beginning of time and finished it with the cross so it is now set everyone is saved in the same manner no variations now that the cross has fulfilled his plan. No one is binding that on God it was his choice to do so and stands by it. I am sorry you can not get that from scripture but that is what scripture teaches.

So a person accepts Christ on their death bed and then dies before their baptized. You stating God cannot show mercy. He is bound.
The very young who die your stating God cannot show mercy. He is bound.
So you believe God sends infants that have not been baptized to hell if they die?
I disagree.

Its not those who are not baptized in water that are condemned but those who do NOT believe. And even in that God is not bound as I know my Lord and He doesn't send the very young to Hell no matter who they are as they are seen as blameless.

Faith is the key that opens the door not water baptism.

For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. it does not depend on human desire or exertion but on God who shows mercy.

And again, I am for baptism not against it, but my theological position is that we are saved by grace through faith and this not of ourselves.

2. I agree with you here

3. Again you need to study more yes we are in a covenant with God the old has been replaced with the new and if you belong to God you are in the new covenant or you are not part of the family. Again that is what the scriptures teach and they teach just how you enter into the covenant which is through the blood of Christ which as Romans 6 says we obtain through the baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ.

4. Yes and Jesus said that one who believes in him is one who keeps his word and does as he teaches. Jesus taught baptism.

5. I have already covered this go back and read what I have given in response to Arial above in post #90

6. You really need to understand what the scriptures teach on baptism therefore the reason we study this topic to fully understand. We agree that we have to have faith but do not fully understand that, that faith includes what is taught about baptism. Jesus connects the two in so many scriptures and therefore we must understand why. Jesus has made clear just why he commands baptism, what is accomplished in this act.

 

[BillyBob65]

So a person accepts Christ on their death bed and then dies before their baptized. You stating God cannot show mercy. He is bound.
The very young who die your stating God cannot show mercy. He is bound.
So you believe God sends infants that have not been baptized to hell if they die?
I disagree.

Its not those who are not baptized in water that are condemned but those who do NOT believe. And even in that God is not bound as I know my Lord and He doesn't send the very young to Hell no matter who they are as they are seen as blameless.

Faith is the key that opens the door not water baptism.

For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. it does not depend on human desire or exertion but on God who shows mercy.

And again, I am for baptism not against it, but my theological position is that we are saved by grace through faith and this not of ourselves.

Okay I am only sharing with you what God has recorded in his word and not going to play your hypothetical games. That is not and answer God gave about the death bed so it is only God that can say what he will do in that case not I nor you have scriptural answer for that. We have been warned not to wait to long that today is the day for salvation so It is only God that can answer why test him?

As far as the little children God says they are his until they reach the age of accountability and I am not sure when that age is it could differ from each person when the learn the truth.

I will not try to guess what God will do in hypothetical situations if you want to discuss what he has revealed then I will talk with you but if you want to try to find loop hole to please you itchy ears then I don't have time to guess what might happen.

 

[Paul]

Okay I am only sharing with you what God has recorded in his word and not going to play your hypothetical games. That is not and answer God gave about the death bed so it is only God that can say what he will do in that case not I nor you have scriptural answer for that. We have been warned not to wait to long that today is the day for salvation so It is only God that can answer why test him?

As far as the little children God says they are his until they reach the age of accountability and I am not sure when that age is it could differ from each person when the learn the truth.

I will not try to guess what God will do in hypothetical situations if you want to discuss what he has revealed then I will talk with you but if you want to try to find loop hole to please you itchy ears then I don't have time to guess what might happen.

I answered Gods position. As I stated He is not bound.
For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. it does not depend on human desire or exertion but on God who shows mercy.

You won't answer the question because your position means unbaptized babies who die won't go to heaven.

I think the topic is moot anyway. I don't know anyone who proclaims faith in Christ who hasn't been baptized or is seeking baptism some even go more than once.

I was baptized as an infant and did not receive the inward gift of the Spirit at that baptism but later in life when I asked for that gift as one calling on the Lord. And I kept asking and wasn't going to let go of the Lord until He blessed me. It wasn't until I felt the presence of the Spirit in my being that I stopped asking. As I read, "whoever calls on the Lord will be saved."

This is what Jesus stated:

John 11:26