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FOR or BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins, (Acts 2:38)

You honestly think baptism washes away sins? What are sins—dirt on the skin?
I trust in Gods word Yes sir I do 100% I believe God means what he says and I am not ashamed to admit before men.{ Edited by mod for violation of rule 2.2 2.2. Address the issue, topic, or argument, not the person. Such things as inflammatory or marginalizing language, divisiveness, misquoting, misrepresenting, trolling, and personal attacks (including belittling, insulting, falsely accusing, or making assumptions about the character, motives, or faith of other members) are strictly prohibited.}
 
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You honestly think baptism washes away sins? What are sins—dirt on the skin?
You asked what is sin? In the Bible, sin is defined as any action, feeling, or thought that violates God’s holy law, rebels against His will, or fails to meet His standard of righteousness So yes If Gods says baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission then yes I believe it is for the remission to say other wise would be a sin in itself.
 
You asked what is sin? In the Bible, sin is defined as any action, feeling, or thought that violates God’s holy law, rebels against His will, or fails to meet His standard of righteousness So yes If Gods says baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is for the remission then yes I believe it is for the remission to say other wise would be a sin in itself.
Year 2000 English is not year 0000 Greek, figurative is not literal, and language doesn't work that way.
 
Year 2000 English is not year 0000 Greek, figurative is not literal, and language doesn't work that way.
Hey it is fine with me if you do not want to take God at his word cause he is through talking what he said once is for all time it is up to you to accept or reject only you can make that decision for yourself. As for me and my house we chose to take God at his recorded word.

Mod Hat: The above violates rule 2.2. It makes a personal accusation about a person's faith, and 3.2 It does not substantively engage with rebuttals.
 
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Hello my friends I am back praise the Lord it was a long silence. Just a thought here. I read that some say that the FOR in Acts 2;38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. could mean because of instead of for as it is written. This might have merit if the bible itself did not debunk that false notion in Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. We must let the bible interpret itself not look in books written by men. Just saying isn't that what is recorded for our understanding do we really need to look up some mens understanding and place it above the scriptures just because we like what they say over what is actually recorded?
So God will deny salvation to one who receives jesus as their Savior and Lord but died before could get to a pool or lake, like on a battle field or in a car accident?
 
So God will deny salvation to one who receives jesus as their Savior and Lord but died before could get to a pool or lake, like on a battle field or in a car accident?
God told me not to [I don't] listen to all of the hypertheticals thrown at me but trust and obey [God]. For his words are truth and life and there is no other way but through his words. I will not argue with God but accept what he has shown me [in Scripture].

[MOD EDIT: The rules have been updated. The strike-through text above now violates rule 3.1, which has been amended to say, “Appeals to private revelation, personal spiritual insight, or unverifiable claims of divine endorsement are not a substitute for biblical exegesis and reasoned theological argument,” which rule 3.1 requires of members.
 
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God told me not to [I don't] listen to all of the hypertheticals thrown at me but trust and obey [God]. For his words are truth and life and there is no other way but through his words. I will not argue with God but accept what he has shown me [in Scripture].
[MOD EDIT: The rules have been updated. The strike-through text above now violates rule 3.1, which has been amended to say, “Appeals to private revelation, personal spiritual insight, or unverifiable claims of divine endorsement are not a substitute for biblical exegesis and reasoned theological argument,” which rule 3.1 requires of members.
I am sorry I stated that reply in error of the new rule but want to thank you for the new rule for it is a good rule that is biblical to the core so again sorry for getting out of line but thank you for the upgrade
 
BillyBob65 said:Hello my friends I am back praise the Lord it was a long silence. Just a thought here. I read that some say that the FOR in Acts 2;38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. could mean because of instead of for as it is written. This might have merit if the bible itself did not debunk that false notion in Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. We must let the bible interpret itself not look in books written by men. Just saying isn't that what is recorded for our understanding do we really need to look up some mens understanding and place it above the scriptures just because we like what they say over what is actually recorded?

JesusFan said: So God will deny salvation to one who receives jesus as their Savior and Lord but died before could get to a pool or lake, like on a battle field or in a car accident?

I have given scripture straight from the KJV bible I did not change any wording but copied and pasted straight from the bible. It is not me saying this but God's holy words you are rebuking and I most likely will be moderated again for defending the truth but it is a chance I have to take to stand on the word of God.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What do you have problem with in which I shared? Do you not accept the scriptures as truth? I did not try to interpret them just post them and let them speak on their own. Where are we in disagreement?
 
I have given scripture straight from the KJV bible I did not change any wording but copied and pasted straight from the bible. It is not me saying this but God's holy words you are rebuking and I most likely will be moderated again for defending the truth but it is a chance I have to take to stand on the word of God.

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

What do you have problem with in which I shared? Do you not accept the scriptures as truth? I did not try to interpret them just post them and let them speak on their own. Where are we in disagreement?
Do not deny that you have a 'take' on what the passages you posted are talking about. You ARE interpreting them. It is unavoidable. You are right now as you read, interpreting what I am saying.

Furthermore, we are all biased, whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not. What we read, we read into.

If it helps you to get this point, the KJV is not an inspired translation. Even the original 1611 Authorized Version from which the KJV has been made more readable was not an inspired translation. Plenary Verbal Inspiration applies to the original autographs only, of which it is believed that none survive.

But more to the point, language migrates both geographically and evolutionally. From one century, one decade, to the next—even from one year to the next—meaning and usage and pronunciation and habitual application and connotation, and thinking as a result, can change drastically. Take a look at the word, "so", in John 3:16, KJV or otherwise. Some of the more liberal (paraphrase) translations say, "God loved the world so much...", but that isn't what "so" means there. It CAN mean that, but it more easily means, "thus". See also, the use of the subjunctive in the Greek. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him might not perish, but have everlasting life." The pair of words, "whosoever", and, "might", in the Greek give no hint of "who knows—it's all up to us.", but rather of purpose! —"God thus loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son [for the purpose that] everyone believing in him [would] not perish..." is the sense of it, in current English.

You read "what it says", but if you read the surface appearance, you don't know what it says. The 1611 included the 14 books of the Apocrypha which have since been discarded because they, by plain reading, contradict the rest of the Bible —(plain reading or exegeted). And plain reading of the current 66 books will also produce contradictions, (as atheists love to demonstrate).

"What it says" is not "What God says to you". It is what you are taking God to be saying to you. It is no better than those who think to be exegeting by going deep and jumping to conclusions, and feel something in their spirit that speaks to them, and then claim God has opened their eyes and the world needs to hear about it.

I'm hoping that is all you meant, when you said, "God told me"—that you meant you read it in the Bible and you take what you read there seriously. But, if you do take it seriously, then take it linguistically, to any reasonable depth you are capable. Language doesn't work the way you seem to be assuming.
 
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Do not deny that you have a 'take' on what the passages you posted are talking about. You ARE interpreting them. It is unavoidable. You are right now as you read, interpreting what I am saying.

Furthermore, we are all biased, whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not. What we read, we read into.

If it helps you to get this point, the KJV is not an inspired translation. Even the original 1611 Authorized Version from which the KJV has been made more readable was not an inspired translation. Plenary Verbal Inspiration applies to the original autographs only, of which it is believed that none survive.

But more to the point, language migrates both geographically and evolutionally. From one century, one decade, to the next—even from one year to the next—meaning and usage and pronunciation and habitual application and connotation, and thinking as a result, can change drastically. Take a look at the word, "so", in John 3:16, KJV or otherwise. Some of the more liberal (paraphrase) translations say, "God loved the world so much...", but that isn't what "so" means there. It CAN mean that, but it more easily means, "thus". See also, the use of the subjunctive in the Greek. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him might not perish, but have everlasting life." The pair of words, "whosoever", and, "might", in the Greek give no hint of "who knows—it's all up to us.", but rather of purpose! —"God thus loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son [for the purpose that] everyone believing in him [would] not perish..." is the sense of it, in current English.

You read "what is says", but if you read the surface appearance, you don't know what it says. The 1611 included the 14 books of the Apocrypha which have since been discarded because they, by plain reading, contradict the rest of the Bible —(plain reading or exegeted). And plain reading of the current 66 books will also produce contradictions, (as atheists love to demonstrate).

"What it says" is not "What God says to you". It is what you are taking God to be saying to you. It is no better than those who think to be exegeting by going deep and jumping to conclusions, and feel something in their spirit that speaks to them, and then claim God has opened their eyes and the world needs to hear about it.

I'm hoping that is all you meant, when you said, "God told me"—that you meant you read it in the Bible and you take what you read there seriously. But, if you do take it seriously, then take it linguistically, to any reasonable depth you are capable. Language doesn't work the way you seem to be assuming.
So if I can not take a bible and it be true then what do I have left just take what ever one says because there is no truth the bibles are all out of date?

I can read on the topic of baptism in several verses not no stand alone that all back and support the teaching so I am not understanding the new thoughts on the subject because I am reading outdated material? Maybe I am no smart enough to understand your wisdom because I don't have the correct bible to read from? 2 Timothy 3:15-17 is out of date also correct?
 
So if I can not take a bible and it be true then what do I have left just take what ever one says because there is no truth the bibles are all out of date?

I can read on the topic of baptism in several verses not no stand alone that all back and support the teaching so I am not understanding the new thoughts on the subject because I am reading outdated material? Maybe I am no smart enough to understand your wisdom because I don't have the correct bible to read from? 2 Timothy 3:15-17 is out of date also correct?
How is it not true? It's not out of date. I'm saying it takes looking into. Do you understand what hermeneutics is? What exegesis is?

I think you do, and I think your questions are rhetorical, if not downright mocking. The plain language concerning baptism even in modern translations does not mean what your "plain reading" takes it to mean. Even modern ENGLISH doesn't work that way. Prepositions, just for starters, do not bow to a private favorite way of looking at what it is talking about. When I say, "for", it can mean a whole host of things. Look it up! I can say, "Go there for your entertainment", or I can say, "Go there for your education". Even that close, the word, "for", induces different implications. If I say, "Well! For once I've learned something.", it's a whole different use of, "for". If I say, "Oh, for crying out loud", it's another one. "For your own good", is another. "Two for one", is another. EVEN IN ENGLISH, the word "for" can induce all kinds of readings and understanding. In Greek also, but they don't translate quite the same. It can mean, 'unto', 'according to', 'purposing', 'toward', and so on. Just because you read something in English and assume it means something does not mean God told you what it means.
 
How is it not true? It's not out of date. I'm saying it takes looking into. Do you understand what hermeneutics is? What exegesis is?

I think you do, and I think your questions are rhetorical, if not downright mocking. The plain language concerning baptism even in modern translations does not mean what your "plain reading" takes it to mean. Even modern ENGLISH doesn't work that way. Prepositions, just for starters, do not bow to a private favorite way of looking at what it is talking about. When I say, "for", it can mean a whole host of things. Look it up! I can say, "Go there for your entertainment", or I can say, "Go there for your education". Even that close, the word, "for", induces different implications. If I say, "Well! For once I've learned something.", it's a whole different use of, "for". If I say, "Oh, for crying out loud", it's another one. "For your own good", is another. "Two for one", is another. EVEN IN ENGLISH, the word "for" can induce all kinds of readings and understanding. In Greek also, but they don't translate quite the same. It can mean, 'unto', 'according to', 'purposing', 'toward', and so on. Just because you read something in English and assume it means something does not mean God told you what it means.
yes that is a good try but if you do a topical study and let the bible explain itself you will without a doubt see that the for means in order to and definitely not because of. Are you trying to tell me you can not see that in a topical study on baptism. I already pointed you to the closest proof there is a lot more and you still can't see that the bible is clear that the baptism in Acts 2:38 is definitely in order obtain?
 
yes that is a good try but if you do a topical study and let the bible explain itself you will without a doubt see that the for means in order to and definitely not because of. Are you trying to tell me you can not see that in a topical study on baptism. I already pointed you to the closest proof there is a lot more and you still can't see that the bible is clear that the baptism in Acts 2:38 is definitely in order obtain?
Can you not see that Ephesians 2:8,9 says that salvation is not by works, but by grace through faith? Can you not see all the many verses about Salvation that don't mention the need for water baptism?

BTW, I don't say Acts 2:38 is "because of". I say it is "in keeping with". It's an awful stretch to say that 'Salvation is by grace' works just fine with, 'Salvation is by dunking in water'.

Let's have the 'lot more' you say there is. Not one of them proves that salvation is by water baptism.

But, you have yet to demonstrate that your 'plain reading' is the way to know what God has said. You seem to have dropped that contention, which you assume in order to buttress your thesis.
 
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I have heard this reasoning for awhile. Acts 2:38 cannot mean what is written because of Ephesians 2:8 but do you really understand how crazy that statement is? It is most likely that you misunderstand the passage in Ephesians. Maybe the faith is not your faith but the FAITH (the gospel of Christ) that once was delivered for all time. We read of The Faith (the gospel) many times and we know the gospel is the power unto salvation. Just maybe we could be missing the true meaning of Ephesians 2:8 but no you say it is Acts 2:38 that is not correctly written. Acts 2:38 is not a stand alone passages it has many other passages that validate it. As I have shown you Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:3ff validate that Acts 2:38 is FOR the remission of sin. I realize that you see that but can't accept that because that would mess up your whole theology but it doesn't change the truth of the scriptures. I realize I will not get you to change your mind because your heart has been hardened by your bias but truth is truth regardless. I must stop now for I most likely am going to be moderated in some manner over this so I will let it stand.
 
I have heard this reasoning for awhile. Acts 2:38 cannot mean what is written because of Ephesians 2:8 but do you really understand how crazy that statement is? It is most likely that you misunderstand the passage in Ephesians. Maybe the faith is not your faith but the FAITH (the gospel of Christ) that once was delivered for all time. We read of The Faith (the gospel) many times and we know the gospel is the power unto salvation. Just maybe we could be missing the true meaning of Ephesians 2:8 but no you say it is Acts 2:38 that is not correctly written. Acts 2:38 is not a stand alone passages it has many other passages that validate it. As I have shown you Acts 22:16 and Romans 6:3ff validate that Acts 2:38 is FOR the remission of sin. I realize that you see that but can't accept that because that would mess up your whole theology but it doesn't change the truth of the scriptures. I realize I will not get you to change your mind because your heart has been hardened by your bias but truth is truth regardless. I must stop now for I most likely am going to be moderated in some manner over this so I will let it stand.
paul thankful did not baptize very many?
I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius. EASY. I thank God that I myself did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius. 1 Corinthians 1:14
 
Here is another little tidbit I don't understand. Some say that baptism can't be part of the saving grace (THE FAITH) because of Ephesians 2:8 but yet they agree that you must repent. Repenting is a work as defined by their take on baptism. They agree you must confess Christ before man. Confessing is a work as defined by their take on baptism. They agree you must have faith (believe). Believing is a work as defined by their take on baptism. What I don't understand is why they draw the line in the sand with baptism. Baptism is no more a work of man than the rest. The spiritual work that is done in baptism is done by God and if you see it any other way you just don't have faith in what God recorded for you to believe.

One more thought while we are discussing this. The works Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2:8 is in reference to the Law of Moses. He spends a lot of time teaching that the Judaizers can't add the Law of Moses (works of the law) to the law of Christ it just doesn't work and is another gospel not the gospel of Christ. Paul in no way was talking about baptism faith confession or repentance as being a work of man that is man's doctrine not Gods.
 
paul thankful did not baptize very many?
I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius. EASY. I thank God that I myself did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius. 1 Corinthians 1:14
Now go back in context and tell me why Paul said that according to his words in that chapter not you theory but in Paul's words. It is there for you to see just slowly read the whole chapter and listen to what Paul is saying.
 
Here is another little tidbit I don't understand. Some say that baptism can't be part of the saving grace (THE FAITH) because of Ephesians 2:8 but yet they agree that you must repent. Repenting is a work as defined by their take on baptism.
Repentance is a grace-enabled response.
Before salvation by grace alone, we are at enmity with God. Faith is not a work because Eph 2 says it is God who gives that faith.

There is no correlation between faith, repentance, and baptism in the category of works. Water baptism is visible. It requires a person to baptize and a person to be baptized. The first two are internal. The second is external.
They agree you must confess Christ before man. Confessing is a work as defined by their take on baptism.
Confession is the expression of faith not the cause of justification and not something that earns remission
of sins.
They agree you must have faith (believe). Believing is a work as defined by their take on baptism. What I don't understand is why they draw the line in the sand with baptism. Baptism is no more a work of man than the rest. The spiritual work that is done in baptism is done by God and if you see it any other way you just don't have faith in what God recorded for you to believe.
"Their" take on baptism as a work is not what defines "believing" (or repentance or confessing). Baptism is an entirely different category than repentance and confessing and believing.

Baptism is
  • external
  • is administered by another person
  • is ritual, observable, and repeatable
  • occurs at a specific moment in time

Faith, repentance, belief are

  • internal
  • not administered
  • not a ritual
  • not repeatable in the same sense

The spiritual work that is done in baptism is done by God and if you see it any other way you just don't have faith in what God recorded for you to believe.
This is not an argument---it is a rhetorical shutdown. Logically it does nothing to prove baptism is the instrument of justification. All it does is reframe disagreement as unbelief, avoids engaging the category distinction, replaces reasoning with accusation.

It also accuses all those who disagree with you as not having faith in Gods word---which is a violation of rule 2.2
, falsely accusing, or making assumptions about the character, motives, or faith of other members) are strictly prohibited.
 
BillyBob65 said:
Here is another little tidbit I don't understand. Some say that baptism can't be part of the saving grace (THE FAITH) because of Ephesians 2:8 but yet they agree that you must repent. Repenting is a work as defined by their take on baptism.
Repentance is a grace-enabled response.
Before salvation by grace alone, we are at enmity with God. Faith is not a work because Eph 2 says it is God who gives that faith.

There is no correlation between faith, repentance, and baptism in the category of works. Water baptism is visible. It requires a person to baptize and a person to be baptized. The first two are internal. The second is external.
It's also wrong in that grace-enabled responses are not salvific. Repenting is not salvific. You can argue that repentance is. Believing is not what saves. Salvation is through belief (faith), not through believing. Those believing are already saved. Those repenting are already saved. Those obeying are already saved. Grace-enabled responses proceed from regeneration.

@BillyBob65 is still overlapping justification with sanctification, the same way that Methodists conflate fellowship (the result) with salvation (the cause). "Don't TELL me I wasn't saved at the moment, and my sins removed. I FELT it!"
 
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