Faith comes by hearing.

[Carbon]

Faith comes by hearing. How does faith come by hearing? How does this work? How does scripture teach this?


Does proclaiming the gospel message to people of itself compel faith in the hearer?

Or, is it possible that the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

 

[Alive]

Saving Faith, it seems to me, is connected to being given ears to ear as a part of the monogistic reality of the Father places His elect into Christ. It’s all the same thing. Different ways of expressing the same thing.

 

[Carbon]

Saving Faith, it seems to me, is connected to being given ears to ear as a part of the monogistic reality of the Father places His elect into Christ. It’s all the same thing. Different ways of expressing the same thing.

So, you do not agree with the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

 

[Alive]

So, you do not agree with the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

I do not see it that way. Everything I have come to understand about Christ’s work for and in us I laid out in Salvation is Relocation. I see no way to separate any aspect from another, other than our ongoing sanctification which is the outworking of that New Life through and in the Soul/Mind.

 

[fastfredy0]

Faith comes by hearing. How does faith come by hearing? How does this work?

It is a necessary precursor to believing/faith. One of the component of faith is knowledge; you can't believe in something if you have no knowledge of it.

How does scripture teach this?

Romans 10:14-15,17

Does proclaiming the gospel message to people of itself compel faith in the hearer?

No, that's the task of the Spirit via regeneration (born again).

Or, is it possible that the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

Depends on the definition of External (General) Call. If the 'effectual call' be defined as a subset of the External Call then I would state YES, else NO.
There is a drawing which is general (external) through the preaching of the gospel, so there is a ‘general call’. This principle can be seen in Christ’s words to those who refused the invitation to the great wedding feast; “For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14).

Aside: I can't see any mention of Bitcoin in scripture *giggle*

 

[Fred]

It seems God gives the Holy Spirit to those who are His. (obey/respond to His call) --> Acts 5:32
And gives the spirit of slumber to those who are not His. --> Romans 11:8

 

[Mr GLee]

So, you do not agree with the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

I would offer Faith, what I call a mystery word as the power of Christ's understanding as a labor of His love. His Spirit working in flesh and blood. The eternal hidden things not seen Christ in us witnessed by temporal historical things seen. . . a parable between the two. . temporal mixed with eternal

I would think the recipe of Christ faithful labor of His love is prescribed in 2 Corihtinans .It I believe helps defines the word faith

The 20/20 faith prescription (LOL)

2 Corinthtinas4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Nicodemus a sign and wonder seeker like those that made Jesus in to a circus seal (John 4:48. .John 6:30) Saying. .Do some magic, work a miracle then when we see with our own eyes for 10 sec we will beleive and then fall away from faith. . the power of Christ

In effect. . Marvel not but rather believe prohecy (sealed up as it written with seven seals till the end of time) Again wondering is not believing it is the voice of the father of lies, false prohecy

Christians have faith no need to wonder after. Like Limbo or purgatory. (no faith )

The king of lying signs to wonder after rather than believing prohecy. Satan. . I will be like God.. is the author of identity theft robing the identity of Christ in the garden as if he was the faithful creator. Lucifer king of lying sign to wonder after seems to be going hog wild today....

Seems to be taking away the meaning of love ones neighbor as one self . Today get a security camera or a dozen (like my wife LOL).

What's next ???. Satellite coverage recorded 24/7 added on to a Spectrum bundle for a additional $99.00 per month called "I spy on my neighbors"

The unseen eternal things. . . not the temporal historical alone they must be mixed as the gospel rest resting from our own understanding he gives us freely His eternal understanding.

Peter when lovingly commanded to love his neighbor forgive 490 time a day if necessary . Peter knew he had no power of his own and asked Christ working with him to increase his power again working in Peter we care called ye of little faith the amount the father gives to walk with him as one power Christ's labor of love

 

[CrowCross]

Faith comes by hearing. How does faith come by hearing? How does this work? How does scripture teach this?


Does proclaiming the gospel message to people of itself compel faith in the hearer?

Or, is it possible that the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

Proclaiming the gospel gives one what to have faith in.

 

[Carbon]

Proclaiming the gospel gives one what to have faith in.

Yes. We must have faith in and believe in Christ.
But, does the gospel compel faith?

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes. We must have faith in and believe in Christ.
But, does the gospel compel faith?

I would offer.

The gospel is a work of Christ faith a labor of "Let there be" and the good labor of his "it was God alone good".

Our Faithful and true Creator's power toward us coming down working with us. Not of our own faithless dead in trespasses and sin towards Him.

The the king of identity theft Satan turned thing upside down inspired earth as if the Potter has no understanding .

faith = living Power

Hebrews 6King James Version6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

Faith is a work that works in dying mankind to both hear his will and empower us to do it to his mighty good pleasure .He working with us gives us little of His powerful work as a labor of his eternal love.

They cannot be separate. let there be and nothing changes nothing

 

[Arial]

Faith comes by hearing. How does faith come by hearing? How does this work? How does scripture teach this?

Faith that saves has content. The person and work of Jesus. And a person cannot believe what they have not heard.

Does proclaiming the gospel message to people of itself compel faith in the hearer?

No. No one will believe it unless they have been reborn from above. They may hear it many times (as was the case with me almost daily for seven years) and not believe it. But I believe it now. I have believed it for 42 years. What changed?

Or, is it possible that the external call by itself produces faith in the heart of the natural man?

The external call is foolishness to the natural man. 1 Cor 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit, for they are folly to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes. We must have faith in and believe in Christ.
But, does the gospel compel faith?

I would say no. Why? There are many who have heard the gospel and ignored it.

 

[Carbon]

I would say no. Why? There are many who have heard the gospel and ignored it.

I agree

 

[Fred]

The only gospel mainstream Christianity knows is the one that says “If you don’t believe Jesus is the one true God, you can’t be saved”.

The gospel Jesus taught is the gospel of the kingdom of God. A kingdom whom his God has appointed to him, and who he appoints to those who believe his God is the only true God, and that he is the Messiah whom his God has sent.

Big difference between what the mainstream teaches what Jesus does.

That Jesus is God (Romans 10:13) is what was (and should forever be) preached (Romans 10:8).

 

[Red Baker]

Faith comes by hearing......​

Paul’s conclusion, so then, is from the events he had listed from calling to preachers being sent.

The ordinary method God chose for converting His people is by hearing preaching (Ist Cor 1:21). Paul will give a similar statement to these verses here when concluding the epistle (16:25-26).

Israel had not believed or obeyed the gospel, so Paul restated that faith follows hearing (10:10). Faith and hearing here are what he had listed that men do with God’s preachers and the gospel. The point of this section of scripture is that faith did not result from hearing. See Romans 10:16!

How does faith come by hearing? Does it come into existence in a person? Or come into activity?

Faith does not come into existence by hearing, for most cannot hear and truly hate what they hear. Literally, merely hearing does not cause faith, for natural men cannot even hear it (John 8:43,47). A natural man hearing the gospel considers it foolish and cannot discern the truth (I Cor 2:14). The gospel is hid to those that are lost and is the savor of death unto death (2hd Co 2:14-17; 4:1-4).

Faith comes into action by hearing, which is those actions previously described by Paul (10:14-16).

Abraham is God’s greatest example of faith, but the promise only brought his faith to action. Abraham had faith long before, but he believed the word he heard (Gen 15:5-6; Rom 4:17-21).

Faith is a gift of God by the regenerating power of His Spirit that exists in the new man before any hearing. Consider:

1. It takes exceeding great and mighty resurrection power to prepare men to believe (Eph 1:19-20).
2. God chose the poor rich in faith by electing them and giving them the power to have faith (James 2:5; Ist Cor 1:26-31).
3. Lydia attended to the things spoken by Paul (the word of God) by God opening her heart (Acts 16:14; John 6:44,65).

The issue at stake in this context is faith in Christ to reject the Law for righteousness (10:4,9-13)! If elect Israel did not hear the gospel of Christ’s finished work, they would stay in Law bondage. But if he heard, and he chose to believe, then faith would come forth in belief and confession.

And hearing by the word of God.​

Proper preaching must not add anything to the plain and simple gospel, so that the faith in Jesus Christ resulting is by God’s power rather than merely by the wisdom of men (Ist Cor 2:1-5; 3:10-17).

Men can be led to believe by all sorts of combinations of charisma, fear, emotion, reward, peer pressure, music, charity, story-telling, knowledge-sharing, etc., etc. But it is not faith (Jn 8:30-44).

This is a good thread to consider, and ponder~thank you Carbon.

 

[Red Baker]

1st Corinthians 1:18​

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”

1st Corinthians 1:21​

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

These two scriptures are not saying the same thing~would anyone like to give their understanding on these two scriptures?

 

[Carbon]

Faith comes by hearing......​

Paul’s conclusion, so then, is from the events he had listed from calling to preachers being sent.

The ordinary method God chose for converting His people is by hearing preaching (Ist Cor 1:21). Paul will give a similar statement to these verses here when concluding the epistle (16:25-26).

Israel had not believed or obeyed the gospel, so Paul restated that faith follows hearing (10:10). Faith and hearing here are what he had listed that men do with God’s preachers and the gospel. The point of this section of scripture is that faith did not result from hearing. See Romans 10:16!

How does faith come by hearing? Does it come into existence in a person? Or come into activity?

Faith does not come into existence by hearing, for most cannot hear and truly hate what they hear. Literally, merely hearing does not cause faith, for natural men cannot even hear it (John 8:43,47). A natural man hearing the gospel considers it foolish and cannot discern the truth (I Cor 2:14). The gospel is hid to those that are lost and is the savor of death unto death (2hd Co 2:14-17; 4:1-4).

Faith comes into action by hearing, which is those actions previously described by Paul (10:14-16).

Abraham is God’s greatest example of faith, but the promise only brought his faith to action. Abraham had faith long before, but he believed the word he heard (Gen 15:5-6; Rom 4:17-21).

Faith is a gift of God by the regenerating power of His Spirit that exists in the new man before any hearing. Consider:

1. It takes exceeding great and mighty resurrection power to prepare men to believe (Eph 1:19-20).
2. God chose the poor rich in faith by electing them and giving them the power to have faith (James 2:5; Ist Cor 1:26-31).
3. Lydia attended to the things spoken by Paul (the word of God) by God opening her heart (Acts 16:14; John 6:44,65).

The issue at stake in this context is faith in Christ to reject the Law for righteousness (10:4,9-13)! If elect Israel did not hear the gospel of Christ’s finished work, they would stay in Law bondage. But if he heard, and he chose to believe, then faith would come forth in belief and confession.

And hearing by the word of God.​

Proper preaching must not add anything to the plain and simple gospel, so that the faith in Jesus Christ resulting is by God’s power rather than merely by the wisdom of men (Ist Cor 2:1-5; 3:10-17).

Men can be led to believe by all sorts of combinations of charisma, fear, emotion, reward, peer pressure, music, charity, story-telling, knowledge-sharing, etc., etc. But it is not faith (Jn 8:30-44).

This is a good thread to consider, and ponder~thank you Carbon.

I believe it is impossible that the external call by itself, can produce faith in the heart of the natural man. Simply because the natural man cannot see the kingdom of God, and since he cannot see it, he cannot exercise faith in it.
Faith is always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it. If you can't see it (John 3:3), it hasn't been shown (presented) to you. It's just that simple. It makes no sense to believe, that a man can choose to believe or not believe because he wants to.

Not only does regeneration (born again) open man's eyes to see the kingdom, but it also removes the natural enmity against God. This enmity must be done away with if we are to entrust ourselves to Christ.

 

[Carbon]

I believe it is impossible that the external call by itself, can produce faith in the heart of the natural man. Simply because the natural man cannot see the kingdom of God, and since he cannot see it, he cannot exercise faith in it.
Faith is always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it. If you can't see it (John 3:3), it hasn't been shown (presented) to you. It's just that simple. It makes no sense to believe, that a man can choose to believe or not believe because he wants to.

Not only does regeneration (born again) open man's eyes to see the kingdom, but it also removes the natural enmity against God. This enmity must be done away with if we are to entrust ourselves to Christ.

@Red Baker

Faith is always grounded on what the mind considers sufficient evidence. Faith is conviction grounded on authority, isn't it?


Augustine said: "We know what rests on reason; we believe what rests on authority."



Faith always follows the judgment of the intellect as to whether a thing is true. It is never the product of the will.

 

[JIM]

Why do so many think that believing in God is somehow different than believing in any other personally non-provable thing. Just about everyone believes in the consciousness of the human being. But even today with all that we know about the human brain and the human mind there is little proof that it is even a real thing. It is pure conjecture supported by what some would call experiential evidence. And yet nearly all believe in something called consciousness.

Do you believe there is a universe beyond the Milky Way? Why? Few have ever personally verified it or even have the ability to personally do so. Why do we believe anything that we believe. We first hear about it, then to one extent or another we evaluate and decide whether we think it is true. Depending upon what it is, we require some measure of evidence from outside sources that for whatever reason we trust. That is typically fraught with personal bias. Believing in God is really no different. I think the assumption of the need for some mystical experience to believe in God is at its core pure foolishness. In the condemnation of ungodliness and unrighteousness of men described in Romans 1:18-32 there is not even hint at a need for "regeneration" in order to believe.

Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

That clearly is not laying the problem of unbelief at the lack of regeneration. God is not condemning them because He failed to regenerate them so that they would believe. He is condemning them because they have rejected what is "clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom 1:20).

 

[Red Baker]

Why do so many think that believing in God is somehow different than believing in any other personally non-provable thing.

Why you asked? Jim, God has given us his word as a source of information, supported by many infallible proof per Acts 1:3. He also has given to us his own testimony concerning some things which you here mentioned.

Do you believe there is a universe beyond the Milky Way? Why?

Isaiah 44:8; etc.

Colossians 1:16​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:”

You said:

Why do so many think that believing in God is somehow different than believing in any other personally non-provable thing

Believing in God is a spiritual act, not a natural act for sinful man, as a matter of fact, sinful, blinded man looks for ways not to believe in the God who created all things. It is the enmity man (Adam) has within him as the results of disobeying God, that makes it impossible for sinful man to even do that which is pleasing to God, such as seeking, believing in Him.


Jim you have convinced yourself that believing in God is as simple as brushing your teeth. It is much more than that, one must believe that there is a God with infinite power, and wisdom who wonderfully created our bodies so perfectly as to place every member in its proper place to function the best for us a his creatures~and then praise Him for doing so...then praise him for giving us the faith to believe him.

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Jim, do you believe, then that faith was given to you to believe, or else you would have never believe.

I think the assumption of the need for some mystical experience to believe in God is at its core pure foolishness

Pure foolishness?

Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

Jim, is it given to Christians to suffer for Christ, it is our lot while living in the flesh apart from Christ? Also, it is given to us on Jesus' behalf to believe in God, this gift Christ secured for us. I tis not as easy as you think, if so, the wise of this world would have figure this out long ago, and we would have been left out. 1st Corinthians 1:26-31, tells us why some believe and some do not.

I'll come back and look at Romans one later.