Eternal Torment of the wicked

[Keiw1]

It is not easy jumping into a thread which has already been going on for three months or so~but, here's my understanding of the subject under consideration.

It really matters not what we think, or want to believe, but what saith the word of God. I will try to make this first post short, as possible, which is not always easy to do in order to clearly get a point across, but here we go.

I ask this question: "Did Jesus paid IN FULL the sin question for his elect? Yes, he did indeed. Will he suffer in hell fire forever? Of course not. The payment he render was he offered his perfect life of faith and obedience for our sins. He was put to death, PERIOD! He would have stay in that state if it was not for the perfect life of holiness which he rendered unto the law of God for the sins of his people. He saved us from the lake of fire, which IS second death. In other word~he saved us from perishing FOREVER, by granting to us eternal life as our surety before the law of God.

To teach that when men die they go into a burning hell fire is to teach a form of purgatory~ Basically where the doctrine of hell fire originated from. When the sinner dies he go into a sleep, and will sleep until the last day at the resurrection when ALL shall come forth to be judged. Just consider how irrational is the doctrine where folks are presently cast into a hell fire, and then taken out only to be cast back into the lake of fire???? such a doctrine has no biblical support. Folk are following men instead of the scriptures. Sinners when they die lost do not have eternal life, they are in jail so to speak waiting to go before the judge to receive their punishment which will be the lake of fire, WHICH IS the SECOND DEATH, a perishing state. The righteous have eternal life and at death immediately go into the presence of Christ to be with him.

Next post we will look at the scriptures to prove our points. In the mean Consider:

John 3:16~"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life." I think most folks understand the meaning of perishing~at least they should.

Jesus death covers those who do this-Acts 3:19--you see it takes repentance and turning around to get sin blotted out--so no it is not covered automatically for anyone.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.



Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

​

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus death covers those who do this-Acts 3:19--you see it takes repentance and turning around to get sin blotted out--so no it is not covered automatically for anyone.

I will not hijack this thread, but will comment on your words in another thread that I will start.. We shall see if you can defend your understanding~I'm convince you cannot. But, that's why there are forums such as this one so you can attempt to prove your understanding.

 

[TB2]

The true God= LOVE, merciful, justice
God taught all his perfect justice= an eye for an eye=perfect balance on Gods justice scales= real justice.
So for 70-100 years of an unrepented life, God could not nor would not punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions, etc infinite years of eternal suffering. There is no balance in that justice. Deut 32:4= ALL of Gods ways are justice. That teaching of a literal place of eternal suffering by blind guides that do not know God= An eye for a gazillion eyes.
The true God( YHWH(Jehovah)set before all mankind-LIFE or DEATH-Deut 30:19)

The symbolism taught on eternal suffering = As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in, miss each new day, miss each new day of Gods love, it NEVER ends-likened to be an eternal suffering--Why? Because those not allowed in traded 70-100 years of a sinful existence and missed out on eternal life in Gods kingdom.

Proof--The place where the worm dieth not-- There isn't a worm in existence that can survive more than a single hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not--6 feet under ( eternal death) is where the worm dieth not.
And Jesus clearly teaches those walking the broad and spacious path to destruction---not eternal life to suffer.

There's actually quite a bit in there I agree with you about (something we agree on!), except the finitude part. Scripture does indeed teach an eternal judgment/punishment. And like you said the "eye for an eye" principle of lex talionis is at work ('let the punishment fit the crime'). But I don't think that's an argument against eternal punishment but for it. The judged don't want God, and so God gives them what they desire: an existence without God.

I also think you're right to point out the symbolism on this. We tend to read Revelation (a vision!) way too literally, when almost everything in the book is based on Jewish apocalyptic imagery and symbolism. Thus, you're right that it's possible the lake of fire and eternal hell fire and brimstone punishment we see in the Bible aren't meant to be taken as literal hell fire and brimstone.

Importantly, saying it is symbolic imagery does NOT mean that hell/eternal punishment is not a real place/reality--IT IS---that visionary imagery is being used to represent a REAL hell/eternal judgment reality. But the hell fire and brimstone is symbolic of an eternal punishment that is FAR WORSE than burning forever: it represents the real absence of God forever. THAT is the eternal punishment and the right "eye for an eye" lex talionis principle of justice that those who reject God receive. They reject God, so God gives then what they want. Eternal "life" without Him (which truly is Hell).

 

[Keiw1]

There's actually quite a bit in there I agree with you about (something we agree on!), except the finitude part. Scripture does indeed teach an eternal judgment/punishment. And like you said the "eye for an eye" principle of lex talionis is at work ('let the punishment fit the crime'). But I don't think that's an argument against eternal punishment but for it. The judged don't want God, and so God gives them what they desire: an existence without God.

I also think you're right to point out the symbolism on this. We tend to read Revelation (a vision!) way too literally, when almost everything in the book is based on Jewish apocalyptic imagery and symbolism. Thus, you're right that it's possible the lake of fire and eternal hell fire and brimstone punishment we see in the Bible aren't meant to be taken as literal hell fire and brimstone.

Importantly, saying it is symbolic imagery does NOT mean that hell/eternal punishment is not a real place/reality--IT IS---that visionary imagery is being used to represent a REAL hell/eternal judgment reality. But the hell fire and brimstone is symbolic of an eternal punishment that is FAR WORSE than burning forever: it represents the real absence of God forever. THAT is the eternal punishment and the right "eye for an eye" lex talionis principle of justice that those who reject God receive. They reject God, so God gives then what they want. Eternal "life" without Him (which truly is Hell).

Symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in, miss each day, miss each day of Gods love--likened in scripture to be an eternal torment. Why? Because those traded, trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life in perfection to live 70-100 years of an unrepented life now. Not a wise trade.
Jesus assures those walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed--The reason Hades( grave) and death are thrown in to the lake of fire is for them to be destroyed forever. Everything thrown in there will be destroyed forever.

 

[Keiw1]

I will not hijack this thread, but will comment on your words in another thread that I will start.. We shall see if you can defend your understanding~I'm convince you cannot. But, that's why there are forums such as this one so you can attempt to prove your understanding.

Where is that posted?

 

[Eleanor]

Symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in, miss each day, miss each day of Gods love--likened in scripture to be an eternal torment. Why? Because those traded, trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life in perfection to live 70-100 years of an unrepented life now. Not a wise trade.
Jesus assures those walking the broad and spacious path will be destroyed--The reason Hades( grave) and death are thrown in to the lake of fire is for them to be destroyed forever. Everything thrown in there will be destroyed forever.

Actually, Hades was one of two placed in Sheol (Lk 16:19-31): bosom of Abraham and fire of Hades.

 

[Keiw1]

Actually, Hades was one of two placed in Sheol (Lk 16:19-31): bosom of Abraham and fire of Hades.

Sheol( grave) = Hades( grave)

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

There's actually quite a bit in there I agree with you about (something we agree on!), except the finitude part. Scripture does indeed teach an eternal judgment/punishment. And like you said the "eye for an eye" principle of lex talionis is at work ('let the punishment fit the crime'). But I don't think that's an argument against eternal punishment but for it. The judged don't want God, and so God gives them what they desire: an existence without God.

I also think you're right to point out the symbolism on this. We tend to read Revelation (a vision!) way too literally, when almost everything in the book is based on Jewish apocalyptic imagery and symbolism. Thus, you're right that it's possible the lake of fire and eternal hell fire and brimstone punishment we see in the Bible aren't meant to be taken as literal hell fire and brimstone.

Importantly, saying it is symbolic imagery does NOT mean that hell/eternal punishment is not a real place/reality--IT IS---that visionary imagery is being used to represent a REAL hell/eternal judgment reality. But the hell fire and brimstone is symbolic of an eternal punishment that is FAR WORSE than burning forever: it represents the real absence of God forever. THAT is the eternal punishment and the right "eye for an eye" lex talionis principle of justice that those who reject God receive. They reject God, so God gives then what they want. Eternal "life" without Him (which truly is Hell).

keiw1 & Others who have replied to my Threads on Eternal Punishment:

It is good and spiritually healthy that we can dialogue this subject of "eternal punishment" and still be brothers and are sisters in the Lord. Regardless of our status in Christ, we can always learn from each other. Mutual communication is part of our Christian walk.

A few decades ago, as a young believer, I, too, adopted the sentiment that the ungodly will be consciencely tormented eternally - forever and forever. I abandoned this view for a diversity of reasons, the main one being that if our God is a God of mercy, and He surely is, how could He possibly torture anyone eternally? The eternal punishment of the ungodly, as I have demonstrated in my Threads on the subject, is annihilation - it will be eternal.

Yes, we will disagree along the way, but our doing so should not isolate ourselves from each other. So keep those responses flowing. I am reading as many as I have time for.--Buff.

 

[TB2]

keiw1 & Others who have replied to my Threads on Eternal Punishment:

It is good and spiritually healthy that we can dialogue this subject of "eternal punishment" and still be brothers and are sisters in the Lord. Regardless of our status in Christ, we can always learn from each other. Mutual communication is part of our Christian walk.

A few decades ago, as a young believer, I, too, adopted the sentiment that the ungodly will be consciencely tormented eternally - forever and forever. I abandoned this view for a diversity of reasons, the main one being that if our God is a God of mercy, and He surely is, how could He possibly torture anyone eternally? The eternal punishment of the ungodly, as I have demonstrated in my Threads on the subject, is annihilation - it will be eternal.

Yes, we will disagree along the way, but our doing so should not isolate ourselves from each other. So keep those responses flowing. I am reading as many as I have time for.--Buff.

Thank you for sharing and appreciate the grace you extend

 

[ammi]

Thank you for sharing and appreciate the grace you extend

I came here to say something, but seeing as you just said what I was going to say, I'll change what I was about to say to amen! Well said!

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

ATTENTION RESPONDERS

Readers, I have posted the Finale post on eternal punishment under "ETERNAL TORTURE OF THE UNGODLY." Please look it up and evaluate it. Feel free to express your sentiments.—Buff Scott, Jr.