Entering His Rest

[Biblelesson]

makesends said:
You seem to miss the question: If the "Holy Ghost was not yet [in any way] given", how was regeneration possible?, or more directly to the point, how was salvific faith possible?

Provide Scripture as to what?

The question was, "If the 'Holy Ghost was not yet given', how was regeneration possible?". Are you asking for Scripture demonstrating that there is no regeneration apart from the Holy Spirit? Or, are you asking for Scripture demonstrating that that was the question? Or are you asking for scripture demonstrating that Christ had to go for the Spirit to come? Or what?

The reason I’m not understanding your question is because it sounds like you believe regeneration was to take place prior to Christ death on the cross. Yet, regeneration of the believer could only take place after Christ death and resurrection.

If the Holy Spirit had not been given (not until Christ’s death), then there would be no way to make alive the spirit of the believer- that is regenerate the believer’s spirit.

Jesus said to His disciples that it was expedite for Him to go away so the Comforter (Holy Spirit) could come, John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

The Holy Spirit could only come after Jesus went to the Father and it is the Father that grants the Holy Spirit, John 14:16-17 KJV
16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

The Apostles and Disciples received this same Holy Spirit at baptism by the laying on of hands, and that we receive as believers, that is, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is in us. We are sealed by the same Holy Spirit whereby this seal is a down payment of our inheritance to the Kingdom. Jesus is returning for the saints that will inherit New Jerusalem who has the seal of God in their foreheads - that seal is the Holy Spirit, Who regenerates/new birth - the believer when he/she believes on Christ.

 

[Arial]

Regeneration is the necessary effect of the Spirit 'moving into us', taking up residence, we thus becoming "IN HIM", no?

That is what I mean. I merely condensed the "steps".The indwelling occurs, I believe, when we believe. But the only reason we believe is because of regeneration by the Spirit.

Is this how the Reformed see the OT saints' faith too? Not quite by the Spirit's having become one with us, but only by its moving upon us?

I can only speak for myself as Reformed. If the only way of arriving at true faith is through regeneration by the Holy Spirit, then it has always been that way. No one can have the faith that saves unless their hearts have been changed by God. The difference with the OT is that it was not given to all Israel without exception whereas in the new covenant it is given to all those in Christ without exception.

David cried out to God to not take His Spirit from him.

 

[Alive]

Side issue, I guess, but I don't see starting a new thread over it: I love the construct, "that we would walk in them (the good works prepared beforehand)." The Bible has several such uses of "walking with" and "walking in". All of them, to me, mean more than simple obedience to what we know to be good or right. It has everything to do with what I refer to by, "We do so because it is so." Being IN CHRIST is not simply reorganizing our allegiances and priorities. It has to do with being utterly changed. We are no longer merely self, with certain superpositions acting upon us or toward us.

Yup.

 

[Arial]

If the Holy Spirit had not been given (not until Christ’s death), then there would be no way to make alive the spirit of the believer- that is regenerate the believer’s spirit.

Jesus said to His disciples that it was expedite for Him to go away so the Comforter (Holy Spirit) could come, John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

The Holy Spirit could only come after Jesus went to the Father and it is the Father that grants the Holy Spirit, John 14:16-17 KJV
16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

The Holy Spirit applies the work of Jesus---his substitutionary death and resurrection to the believer through regeneration and the following of believing the person and work of Jesus as truth and trusting in it. It is the way of bringing people into the new covenant. Jesus is the mediator of that covenant.

That does not mean that the Holy Spirit was not regenerating others in the OT. There are OT saints that a full of the faith that is counted as righteousness and Abraham is but one example. But it was not a part of the Old Covenant.

 

[Carbon]

I am feeling all fuzzy!
Lol

Who? You know Fuzzy Wuzzy?

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Greetings…Here’s the way I see these things concerning regeneration:

I believe that since the Elect were chosen and effectually called and predestined and justified and saved before the foundation of the world (eternity past), it is at that very time that they became Elect. Even so, in this age, the Elect still must accept Jesus Christ when they hear His voice calling them through His Word (regeneration). Through the call of God, a sinner’s heart is regenerated. Because of this, I believe the effectual call of regeneration that happened long ago before the foundation of the world logically precedes conversion. Why? …because they were elected before the foundation of the world. In this age, they may not know they’re Elect, but they are nonetheless, and when they hear the Gospel, their eyes will see and their ears will hear!

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

- Jeremiah 1:4-5

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14


—Pie

 

[Carbon]

Greetings…Here’s the way I see these things concerning regeneration:

I believe that since the Elect were chosen and effectually called and predestined and justified and saved before the foundation of the world (eternity past), it is at that very time that they became Elect. Even so, in this age, the Elect still must accept Jesus Christ when they hear His voice calling them through His Word (regeneration). Through the call of God, a sinner’s heart is regenerated. Because of this, I believe the effectual call of regeneration that happened long ago before the foundation of the world logically precedes conversion. Why? …because they were elected before the foundation of the world. In this age, they may not know they’re Elect, but they are nonetheless, and when they hear the Gospel, their eyes will see and their ears will hear!

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

- Jeremiah 1:4-5

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14


—Pie

I think our understanding of these things are pretty simular.. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Alive]

Greetings…Here’s the way I see these things concerning regeneration:

I believe that since the Elect were chosen and effectually called and predestined and justified and saved before the foundation of the world (eternity past), it is at that very time that they became Elect. Even so, in this age, the Elect still must accept Jesus Christ when they hear His voice calling them through His Word (regeneration). Through the call of God, a sinner’s heart is regenerated. Because of this, I believe the effectual call of regeneration that happened long ago before the foundation of the world logically precedes conversion. Why? …because they were elected before the foundation of the world. In this age, they may not know they’re Elect, but they are nonetheless, and when they hear the Gospel, their eyes will see and their ears will hear!

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

- Jeremiah 1:4-5

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14


—Pie

Yup…so it simply becomes a matter of the practical application of the benefits of that election to pierce into the time frame of that individual’ s life on earth. Manifesting in being set free from sin and the flesh in the sense of an ongoing sanctification made possible.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Yup…so it simply becomes a matter of the practical application of the benefits of that election to pierce into the time frame of that individual’ s life on earth. Manifesting in being set free from sin and the flesh in the sense of an ongoing sanctification made possible.

That’s a pretty cool way of saying it.

 

[Biblelesson]

The Holy Spirit applies the work of Jesus---his substitutionary death and resurrection to the believer through regeneration and the following of believing the person and work of Jesus as truth and trusting in it

Yes, but in truth, the Holy Spirit applies the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ to the believer, and leads and guides the believer into all truth. The believer has been crucified with Christ - old man, and raised with Christ - new man.

The Holy Spirit also regenerates us, that is, makes the spirit of the believer alive - and that regenerated spirit of the believer indwelled with the Holy Spirit makes the body of the believer alive, infusing the life of Christ into the believer, thereby the believes receives the eternal life of Christ.

There are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, the water and the blood…1 John 5:7 KJV

1 John 5:10-11 KJV
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness [Holy Spirit, the water, and the blood] in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

It is the way of bringing people into the new covenant. Jesus is the mediator of that covenant.

True!

That does not mean that the Holy Spirit was not regenerating others in the OT. There are OT saints that a full of the faith that is counted as righteousness and Abraham is but one example. But it was not a part of the Old Covenant.

You can’t teach that the Old Testament saints were regenerated because that’s not true, nor is it biblical. The Old Testament saints were under a law where they were required to keep certain ordinances and sacrifice animals, yet the law that they were under could not give life, that is, could not regenerate the spirit of those under the law, Galatians 3:21 KJV,
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians 3:18 KJV
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
So the question is what promise? The promise of inheritance through Abraham’s seed - eternal life. The seed being Christ (the promised seed).

Galatians 3:19 KJV
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

 

[Arial]

You can’t teach that the Old Testament saints were regenerated because that’s not true, nor is it biblical. The Old Testament saints were under a law where they were required to keep certain ordinances and sacrifice animals, yet the law that they were under could not give life, that is, could not regenerate the spirit of those under the law, Galatians 3:21 KJV,
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Galatians 3:18 KJV
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
So the question is what promise? The promise of inheritance through Abraham’s seed - eternal life. The seed being Christ (the promised seed).

I did not say that the law regenerated anyone. I said the Holy Spirit had to have regenerated some if the only way of faith is by regeneration. Some of those under the law ALSO had faith. Most did not. So is it your belief that no one was given eternal life until after the crucifixion and resurrection?

 

[makesends]

The reason I’m not understanding your question is because it sounds like you believe regeneration was to take place prior to Christ death on the cross. Yet, regeneration of the believer could only take place after Christ death and resurrection.

1. Yes, I do believe regeneration had to take place in the heart/mind/will of anyone, to include the elect in the Old Testament who became saints, believers, saved by faith. That faith is not otherwise possible. Further, I believe regeneration and faith to be necessarily effects of the Spirit's indwelling, just as it is now for a believer to believe. It is not just a one-time faith, but continuing because it is in essence the Spirit Itself at work. The Spirit does not shove off responsibility (for them to continue to have valid faith) onto now-made-capable people. They are not capable, apart from his continued indwelling, they having become IN HIM. Having seen my own inconsistency of dedication, and having seen the incredible patience of God toward me, I don't find it possible that even after regeneration, there is any validity, or even any good, in a believer, that is not God doing it in him. The Holy Spirit is the very essence of that faith, not as the object of the faith, but as the only one who intimately knows all the facts concerning the object of that faith, and has every bit of ability to maintain its validity.

2. Why do you think regeneration could only take place after Christ's death and resurrection? Is God limited by time's constraints? Cause-and-effect is not time related, but only logical-sequence related. If you were to be consistent with this time-sequence-dependence, then, since Christ took our sins 2000 years ago, all the elect nowadays were saved from their sins before they had even been conceived, which is clearly not the case. One can say that it is so, "in a sense", which is true enough, but so can one say that regeneration is possible, and that, by the indwelling Spirit of God, before Pentecost.

If the Holy Spirit had not been given (not until Christ’s death), then there would be no way to make alive the spirit of the believer- that is regenerate the believer’s spirit.

Jesus said to His disciples that it was expedite for Him to go away so the Comforter (Holy Spirit) could come, John 16:7, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

The Holy Spirit could only come after Jesus went to the Father and it is the Father that grants the Holy Spirit, John 14:16-17 KJV
16 “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

I already mentioned this. I said that nobody is arguing that there is no displacement of sorts, nobody is denying that Christ said the Comforter will not come if Christ does not go away. And I easily admit that I don't know all that that means, but I can guarantee that nobody else does either. We get a sense of function overlap, since Christ was there, and the Spirit came to take his place, in some sense. But that does not mean that the Spirit of God, who is also omnipresent, was not there in some sense all along.

The Apostles and Disciples received this same Holy Spirit at baptism by the laying on of hands, and that we receive as believers, that is, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is in us. We are sealed by the same Holy Spirit whereby this seal is a down payment of our inheritance to the Kingdom. Jesus is returning for the saints that will inherit New Jerusalem who has the seal of God in their foreheads - that seal is the Holy Spirit, Who regenerates/new birth - the believer when he/she believes on Christ.

I guess you see no difference between the Spirit doing as it will, concerning what is sometimes called "filling" vs "indwelling". Since you deny that the OT saints were indwelt, I expect that at least you can see the Spirit of God "coming upon" them —in fact, sometimes, even upon those who were not saints. He has been around all along. Ask David (Ps 51:11).

So, if he was able to "come upon" them, why not "indwell" those during OT times, whom God had chosen from the foundation of the world? Were they not sealed too? Do you think their faith, by which they were saved, was self-generated?

 

[makesends]

That is what I mean. I merely condensed the "steps".The indwelling occurs, I believe, when we believe. But the only reason we believe is because of regeneration by the Spirit.

I can only speak for myself as Reformed. If the only way of arriving at true faith is through regeneration by the Holy Spirit, then it has always been that way. No one can have the faith that saves unless their hearts have been changed by God. The difference with the OT is that it was not given to all Israel without exception whereas in the new covenant it is given to all those in Christ without exception.

David cried out to God to not take His Spirit from him.

So, the regeneration is not the 'streams of living water', the life of the Spirit?

I see all that as one and the same thing: One IN HIM. I don't see two separate operations there. God is the very essence of that resultant faith, generated by the Spirit of God, with whom we have become one.

—At least, that is how I see it. Or maybe rather, that is how I put what I see. But that doesn't validate my view.

Anyway, I am at least grateful that you see that the Spirit was definitely active and immanent before Pentecost. I guess I don't know how to explain how I see that salvific faith can only be by the continuous generation by the Spirit of God. The "rivers of living water flowing from the belly" are not generated by the belly, but by God.

 

[Biblelesson]

I did not say that the law regenerated anyone. I said the Holy Spirit had to have regenerated some if the only way of faith is by regeneration. Some of those under the law ALSO had faith. Most did not. So is it your belief that no one was given eternal life until after the crucifixion and resurrection?

You cannot have regeneration without Christ. Although Abraham had faith and God counted his faith for righteousness; as well as those under the law, their faith could not save, they did not have the saving life of Christ Who is the Only One to give eternal life, which is imparted by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit did not dwell in the righteous one under the Old Testament, He came upon them. However, under the New Testament, the Holy Spirit dwells in the believer joining them to Christ.

When the righteous under the Old Testament died, because they could not be regenerated, that is, because they could not receive eternal life, they went to Abraham’s Bosom awaiting Christ. When Christ died on the cross, He descended to free those saints in Abraham’s Bosom,
Ephesians 4:9 KJV
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Fortold in Isaiah to release those bound
Isaiah 61:1 KJV
“The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;”

Jesus released the Old Testament saints at the cross - Him being the preeminent One rose first, then they rose after,
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
52 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,”
53 “And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” They appeared to many for a short time, and afterwards, when Jesus finally ascended to heaven, these saints were taken to heaven with Him.

So, according to scripture “no one was given eternal life until after the crucifixion and resurrection?”

 

[makesends]

When the righteous under the Old Testament died, because they could not be regenerated, that is, because they could not receive eternal life, they went to Abraham’s Bosom awaiting Christ. When Christ died on the cross, He descended to free those saints in Abraham’s Bosom,
Ephesians 4:9 KJV
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Fortold in Isaiah to release those bound
Isaiah 61:1 KJV
“The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;”

Jesus released the Old Testament saints at the cross - Him being the preeminent One rose first, then they rose after,
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
52 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,”
53 “And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” They appeared to many for a short time, and afterwards, when Jesus finally ascended to heaven, these saints were taken to heaven with Him.

So, according to scripture “no one was given eternal life until after the crucifixion and resurrection?”

This whole construction seems to me unnecessarily held, the use and interpretation of the passages made necessary for the sake of those assuming substance to time sequence over spiritual truth. The way I see this, is that that is an illogical conflation.

 

[Biblelesson]

This whole construction seems to me unnecessarily held, the use and interpretation of the passages made necessary for the sake of those assuming substance to time sequence over spiritual truth. The way I see this, is that that is an illogical conflation.

What? What are you trying to say. Please be clear?

 

[Biblelesson]

1. Yes, I do believe regeneration had to take place in the heart/mind/will of anyone, to include the elect in the Old Testament who became saints, believers, saved by faith. That faith is not otherwise possible. Further, I believe regeneration and faith to be necessarily effects of the Spirit's indwelling, just as it is now for a believer to believe. It is not just a one-time faith, but continuing because it is in essence the Spirit Itself at work. The Spirit does not shove off responsibility (for them to continue to have valid faith) onto now-made-capable people. They are not capable, apart from his continued indwelling, they having become IN HIM. Having seen my own inconsistency of dedication, and having seen the incredible patience of God toward me, I don't find it possible that even after regeneration, there is any validity, or even any good, in a believer, that is not God doing it in him. The Holy Spirit is the very essence of that faith, not as the object of the faith, but as the only one who intimately knows all the facts concerning the object of that faith, and has every bit of ability to maintain its validity.

2. Why do you think regeneration could only take place after Christ's death and resurrection? Is God limited by time's constraints? Cause-and-effect is not time related, but only logical-sequence related. If you were to be consistent with this time-sequence-dependence, then, since Christ took our sins 2000 years ago, all the elect nowadays were saved from their sins before they had even been conceived, which is clearly not the case. One can say that it is so, "in a sense", which is true enough, but so can one say that regeneration is possible, and that, by the indwelling Spirit of God, before Pentecost.


I already mentioned this. I said that nobody is arguing that there is no displacement of sorts, nobody is denying that Christ said the Comforter will not come if Christ does not go away. And I easily admit that I don't know all that that means, but I can guarantee that nobody else does either. We get a sense of function overlap, since Christ was there, and the Spirit came to take his place, in some sense. But that does not mean that the Spirit of God, who is also omnipresent, was not there in some sense all along.

I guess you see no difference between the Spirit doing as it will, concerning what is sometimes called "filling" vs "indwelling". Since you deny that the OT saints were indwelt, I expect that at least you can see the Spirit of God "coming upon" them —in fact, sometimes, even upon those who were not saints. He has been around all along. Ask David (Ps 51:11).

So, if he was able to "come upon" them, why not "indwell" those during OT times, whom God had chosen from the foundation of the world? Were they not sealed too? Do you think their faith, by which they were saved, was self-generated?

Where are your scriptures to back up what you are saying? If you don’t know what something means, why are you speaking on the issue and giving your opinion without research? Just because you don’t understand does not mean others don’t understand.

 

[Biblelesson]

This whole construction seems to me unnecessarily held, the use and interpretation of the passages made necessary for the sake of those assuming substance to time sequence over spiritual truth. The way I see this, is that that is an illogical conflation.

Are you willing to study scripture?

 

[makesends]

Are you willing to study scripture?

With you? I study scripture all the time.

I hope you can at least agree that when you see things coming together in your mind for whatever you are trying to understand, that you can still be wrong —so can any of us.

 

[makesends]

Where are your scriptures to back up what you are saying? If you don’t know what something means, why are you speaking on the issue and giving your opinion without research? Just because you don’t understand does not mean others don’t understand.

What give you the idea I don't do research? I don't agree with you because you have made up your mind prematurely (as I see it) about what something means. But the notion that I shouldn't object to what you say just because I haven't figured it all out, is a logical monstrosity. I see all sorts of reasons to disagree with you, and posted some of them. If you need my scriptural backing for what I believe, you'd probably do better to do a study on Reformed Theology, to get it more quickly, (and I don't even claim to be of Reformed thinking nor of Calvinism, but that would be quicker than to follow a long dissertation from me.)

These 5 minute posts don't lend themselves well to argue a 6000 year work of God. Do you really think a few scripture references posted will to the job? Been there; done that.

I'm 68 years old and been a believer from very early childhood. I don't mean to harrumph and shout you down, but I've been through the mill, and learned a lot about God and what he has done and is doing, and HOW he is doing it, and why. On top of that, I am bilingual, and "third culture", and know quite a bit about human nature in different cultures and their expressions and ways of thinking. And I can tell you, that when I see someone who has made up their mind as to what something has to mean in Scripture, I am immediately skeptical.

What I do know, and what is precious to me, is that God has monergistically moved into my life, there being no good, endemic to myself, nor any ability that he does not continuously do in me, EVEN AFTER BEING REGENERATED. I am nobody, except by the loving mercy of God according to his will concerning me. And you want me to stand up and bark about something as though I have no further learning to find out???

All I'm doing is asking some of the Reformed whom I know in this context (the site and forum) and love, what they think and why. I'm not sure they have all even thought that far down the line. But then you bust in here like the verses you quote can only mean what YOU think, and you draw conclusions on that alone. Better you learn what the Reformed think and then get back to me.

I've raised your hackles and you've growled, but I'm too old for this kind of confrontation.