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Had an interesting exchange this morning on Twitter with an atheist named Kat:
Yes—if the deity is also the judge, the lawgiver, and the one wronged (and he is).
Well, not exactly. Adam and Eve were not wrongdoers when God created them. Did he know they would fall? Yes. Does that contradict justice? No.
Knowledge of a future fall doesn't make his act of creation unjust. Justice is about dealing rightly with existing guilt. God created morally responsible beings, not robots—and his justice is revealed in both punishing sin and redeeming sinners through Christ.
Fallacious equivocation. Morally responsible refers to the capacity to be held accountable for one's actions—having the faculties of will, intellect, and moral awareness. It does not imply that the person always acts responsibly.
That does not correspond with the scriptures. They knew of sin (intellectually) and they knew disobedience was morally wrong, but they didn't know sin (existentially) until they ate. Arguably, man has had moral awareness for millions of years.
Obviously. And that's not a meaningful objection.
—none of which has any impact on this position I have articulated. If you have no objections that land, then all the better for this position. I doubt those other positions would fare as well.
My position also withstands the objections you have raised, which is important here.
(And it withstands them because they missed.)
Atheist Kat said:Is a sacrifice by a diety to abolish our sins really justice?
Yes—if the deity is also the judge, the lawgiver, and the one wronged (and he is).
Atheist Kat said:He created the wrongdoers! Knowing they would do wrongs [that were] against his perfect ideal.
Well, not exactly. Adam and Eve were not wrongdoers when God created them. Did he know they would fall? Yes. Does that contradict justice? No.
Knowledge of a future fall doesn't make his act of creation unjust. Justice is about dealing rightly with existing guilt. God created morally responsible beings, not robots—and his justice is revealed in both punishing sin and redeeming sinners through Christ.
Atheist Kat said:He didn't create morally responsible adults (if the creation story is literal), he created irresponsible adults who acted on a whim. Perfection would not have chosen that.
Fallacious equivocation. Morally responsible refers to the capacity to be held accountable for one's actions—having the faculties of will, intellect, and moral awareness. It does not imply that the person always acts responsibly.
Atheist Kat said:They didn't have moral awareness. That didn't come until they ate of the tree.
That does not correspond with the scriptures. They knew of sin (intellectually) and they knew disobedience was morally wrong, but they didn't know sin (existentially) until they ate. Arguably, man has had moral awareness for millions of years.
This distinction can be seen by way of contrast, wherein it is said that the one who "did not know sin" God made to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God (2 Cor 5:21; emphasis mine). Christ draws out the difference. He knew of sin (intellectually) but he didn't know sin (existentially), for he never sinned (Heb 4:15).
Atheist Kat said:Your interpretation of "scripture."
Obviously. And that's not a meaningful objection.
Atheist Kat said:There are other believers who strongly disagree with you. And others, like me, who interpret the whole thing as embellished history and myth.
—none of which has any impact on this position I have articulated. If you have no objections that land, then all the better for this position. I doubt those other positions would fare as well.
Atheist Kat said:Your position establishes your belief. Of that, I have no doubt.
My position also withstands the objections you have raised, which is important here.
(And it withstands them because they missed.)
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