Does "apostasy" mean "departure" which means "rapture"?

[makesends]

It looks like the KJV re-invented the wheel.

The pre-King James translations of the bible translated the Greek word "apostasia" in 2 Thes 2:3 as "departure".

Here are a few examples.

Geneva Bible of 1587
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible of 1535
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Tyndale Bible of 1526
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1539 Cramer Bible
Let no man deceaue you by eny meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte ther come a departynge fyrst, and that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon,

Same is true with the 1384 Wycliffe Bible as well as the 1576 Breeches Bible, 1583 Beeze Bible.
From what I understand even Jerome in the 4th century translation of the Latin Vulgate used the latin word for departure.

Why did the 1611 King James translators change "departure" to the term....'Falling away"?

2 Thes 2:3 KJV....Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

More to the point here, is the article, "a". Is it there in the Greek, and if so, is it to be translated with the definite or the indefinite English article? If there is a departing, as opposed to THE departing, then it is not likely referring to the rapture. If that departing is not THE departing, then "a falling away" would seem appropriate.

 

[CrowCross]

Why do you not see that "departure" from the faith and "falling away" from the faith are the same thing?

I do see that. I also know departure means a physical separation. Are you saying departure can't mean a physical separation?

The "tribulation" is the church age (Jn 16:33, 15:18-21, 2 Tim 3:12, Ac 14:22) of Rev 20 which church age, according to apostolic authoritative teaching (as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, Nu 12:6-8), occurs before the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17).

The order at the end:
second coming, resurrection (1 Th 4:16)
rapture (1 Th 4:17).

How about it? . . ."to cause to depart, to cause to revolt (Ac 5:37),

How about Acts 12:10 When they had passed the first and the second guard, they came to the iron gate leading into the city. It opened for them of its own accord, and they went out and went along one street, and immediately the angel left him (departed)

to stand off, or aloof, or to depart from anyone (Lk 4:13, 13:27, Act 5:38--refrain from), 12:10, 15:38, 19:9, 22:29, 2 Co 12:8)
withdraw from;" i.e., to fall away, to apostasize (Lk 8:13, Tim 4:1), falling away (Heb 3:12).

The rapture (harpazo) is not a falling away, harpazo is a "catching up."

True, the rapture (harpazo) is not a falling away, harpazo is a "catching up."...the rapture will also be a departure. (or will you be staying here for the rapture?)

 

[CrowCross]

Verbs are not nouns and their meanings can vary greatly.

For instance:

I will run the marathon. (verb)​

I have a run in my stockings. (noun)​

Both have completely different meanings.

Which is why falling away is a bad translation....the better word of departure, physical leaving should be understood.
Remember 2 verses back we read about a "gathering"...right? Is that not there? Then in verse 3 we read about this event. THE, THE, THE departure. Notice the word THE? There has never been a rapture of the church...when it happens it will be THE rapture.
On the other hand there has been years and years ...thousands of years of "falling away". As you very well know it happens a lot.
So to present it as THE falling away doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[CrowCross]

More to the point here, is the article, "a". Is it there in the Greek, and if so, is it to be translated with the definite or the indefinite English article? If there is a departing, as opposed to THE departing, then it is not likely referring to the rapture. If that departing is not THE departing, then "a falling away" would seem appropriate.

Let me know when this falling away event happens.

The rapture should be pretty obvious...You're falling away has been going on for years all over the world.

 

[Eleanor]

I do see that. I also know departure means a physical separation. Are you saying departure can't mean a physical separation?

It is clear you know exactly what I mean. . .

 

[CrowCross]

It is clear you know exactly what I mean. . .

It's not clear. You INSIST it MUST be a spiritual departure....despite the examples I have provided.

I understand where you are coming from. The problem is you can't even admit you understand my argument. I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me....the problem is you don't understand the argument I've presented.

 

[Eleanor]

It's not clear. You INSIST it MUST be a spiritual departure....despite the examples I have provided.

Because:
1) the rapture is not apostasia, the rapture is harpazo,
2) apostasia in the NT is a "departure" from, falling away from, rebellion from the faith.

I understand where you are coming from. The problem is you can't even admit you understand my argument.

It's not about "argument," it's about Biblical fact, testified to by church history.

And that fact to which church history testifies is: "apostasia" in the NT means "falling away from, departure from, rebellion from the faith," your personal revisionist theology notwithstanding.

 

[CrowCross]

According to those who believe the church must "fall away"...depart from the faith prior to the revealing of the anti-christ and tribulation, ..It should be understood that they don't believe in the "The doctrine of the imminent return of Christ".

 

[CrowCross]

Because:
1) the rapture is not apostasia, the rapture is harpazo,
2) apostasia in the NT is a "departure" from, falling away from, rebellion from the faith.

It's not about "argument," it's about Biblical fact, testified to by church history.

And that fact to which church history testifies is: "apostasia" in the NT means "falling away from, departure from, rebellion from the faith," your personal revisionist theology notwithstanding.

Just for the record it's not my personal revisionist theology. Here's an example where your view is disagreed with. basically I didn't discover it. I didn't invent it.

 

[Eleanor]

Just for the record it's not my personal revisionist theology. Here's an example where your view is disagreed with. basically I didn't discover it. I didn't invent it.

If it's not personal, it's not belief.

 

[CrowCross]

If it's not personal, it's not belief.

Now you play with words. The contextual proof pointing to a pre-trib rapture has been around for a long while. I didn't personally make it up.

 

[Eleanor]

Now you play with words. The contextual proof pointing to a pre-trib rapture has been around for a long while. I didn't personally make it up.

Based on personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation,
in contradiction of NT authoritative apostolic teaching (Ro 4:16-17).

Feel free to deal with the authoritative apostolic teaching of Ro 4:16-17, being true to its words and context.

 

[CrowCross]

Based on personal interpretation of prophetic riddles, not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation,
in contradiction of NT authoritative apostolic teaching (Ro 4:16-17).

Feel free to deal with the authoritative apostolic teaching of Ro 4:16-17, being true to its words and context.

You've felt the need to post this several times....and it means nothing to me when dealing with your misunderstanding of the word departure.

 

[Eleanor]

You've felt the need to post this several times....and it means nothing to me when dealing with your misunderstanding of the word departure.

Non-responsive. . .

You have not addressed the authoritative apostolic teaching of Ro 4:16-17,
[as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly, Nu 12:6-8],
being true to the words and context of Ro 4:16-17,
which passage demonstrates that the rapture (harpazo; alleged "departure," apostasia) occurs after the resurrection at the second coming.

 

[makesends]

I do see that. I also know departure means a physical separation. Are you saying departure can't mean a physical separation?

How about Acts 12:10 When they had passed the first and the second guard, they came to the iron gate leading into the city. It opened for them of its own accord, and they went out and went along one street, and immediately the angel left him (departed)

True, the rapture (harpazo) is not a falling away, harpazo is a "catching up."...the rapture will also be a departure. (or will you be staying here for the rapture?)

I'm sorry, bro. that last seems to me a stretch, imposed on the text. I personally don't have a dog in the fight. I have a rather automatic eschatology of premil pretrib rapture, because that is how I was brought up, and I haven't proven it wrong. But your insistence that this has to be understood this way just doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. I think you are interpreting according to presumption.

 

[makesends]

Let me know when this falling away event happens.

The rapture should be pretty obvious...You're falling away has been going on for years all over the world.

Good point, and a valid argument. Yet, as even Dispensationalism insists, there will be a falling away of comparatively much greater proportions, somewhere along the lines.

 

[CrowCross]

Good point, and a valid argument. Yet, as even Dispensationalism insists, there will be a falling away of comparatively much greater proportions, somewhere along the lines.

What do you think that would look like?

 

[makesends]

What do you think that would look like?

In dispensationalist terms, for example, the leading away or mass deceiving of people worldwide, (to the degree that even the elect, (were it possible), would be led astray. (Matthew 24)).

 

[Tambora]

Which is why falling away is a bad translation....the better word of departure, physical leaving should be understood.
Remember 2 verses back we read about a "gathering"...right? Is that not there? Then in verse 3 we read about this event. THE, THE, THE departure. Notice the word THE? There has never been a rapture of the church...when it happens it will be THE rapture.
On the other hand there has been years and years ...thousands of years of "falling away". As you very well know it happens a lot.
So to present it as THE falling away doesn't make much sense to me.

Falling away from the faith is not a bad translation when you realize that the Greek scriptures always uses the noun apostasia as a departure from the faith.

When Paul says in 1 Cor 15:23 “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”
he is agreeing with the words of Jesus about the wheat and the tares in
Mat 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

The gathering of all believers happens at the 2nd coming and no believer (wheat) will suffer God's wrath, only the unbelievers (tares) suffer God's wrath.

 

[Arial]

Which is why falling away is a bad translation....the better word of departure, physical leaving should be understood.
Remember 2 verses back we read about a "gathering"...right? Is that not there? Then in verse 3 we read about this event. THE, THE, THE departure. Notice the word THE? There has never been a rapture of the church...when it happens it will be THE rapture.
On the other hand there has been years and years ...thousands of years of "falling away". As you very well know it happens a lot.
So to present it as THE falling away doesn't make much sense to me.

Haven't we already gone over that? Check out when the idea of a pre-trib rapture first came on the scene. Though there were a couple of views of the tribulation in the 19th century it was John Darby who popularize his version of a pre-trib rapture in 1830.

Now look at the dates of the translations that use "departure" in that passage.

All are from the 1500's. A pre-trib rapture was not even on their radar. So they did not mean what you mean. They were not using "departure" as a pre-trib rapture.