Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

[Carbon]

I would think our merciful God did not.

Really?
Would you like to think on that more and then answer?

 

[atpollard]

I would think our merciful God did not.

Lucifer failed to protect the glory of the Faithful Creator. Our God who is light and not that he can only create it temporally. Lucifer the lying spirit claiming he is the creator. Look (lust of the eye )and see . touch and eat( lust of flesh) the two building block of false pride

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

One cannot hold God an innocent bystander without stripping God of His Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence (and rendering him at best ‘a god’ like Zeus, and at worst an ‘invisible unicorn’). God certainly had no trouble sending an Angel with a flaming sword to block access to a tree AFTER the fact, so God chose to not deploy that Angel BEFORE the fact.

 

[RR144]

Luke 14:28 tells us; "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it."
Building anything doesn't just involve the cost but involves plans for building it. Having been made in God's image (Genesis 1:27), our heavenly Father no doubt counted the "cost" when creating intelligent life. He no doubt reasoned, "If I create free moral agents, those who can think and reason for themselves, there is the possibility that they can abuse that free will." So He made a way out for them, through the person of Jesus Christ, who paid the ransom for mankind. We're told in Revelation 13:8 that Jesus was "the lamb slain before the foundation of the earth," and as such, the Father has allowed mankind to experience the folly of their ways, the sin and death brought about through one man's disobedience. He's allowed mankind to see what their actions have caused and how He has made a way out through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus.

 

[Mr GLee]

One cannot hold God an innocent bystander without stripping God of His Omniscience, Omnipresence and Omnipotence (and rendering him at best ‘a god’ like Zeus, and at worst an ‘invisible unicorn’). God certainly had no trouble sending an Angel with a flaming sword to block access to a tree AFTER the fact, so God chose to not deploy that Angel BEFORE the fact.

Thanks I would offer

Apostle, sent messenger. How beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel of Christ

Not angel a fake word coined in the 11th century .Sounds the same as the Greek Angelos (messenger) . Having a whole different meaning given by the usurper, Legion a invisible creation of spirit gods guide .

Some call those disembodied workers with a familiar spirit "patron saints" (3,511 and rising) new gods in the likeness of dying mankind still being elected as oral tradition passed of dying mankind from the Pharisees with Sadducees (law of the fathers) I heard it through the fathers grapevine.

The Hebrew word for messenger is Malach it does not even sound like the fake word angel .

Sola scriptura (all things writen in the law and prophets) make that abomination of desolation to no efect .

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord.

 

[Mr GLee]

Really?
Would you like to think on that more and then answer?

More than mercy through grace?

 

[CrowCross]

There's not much to see of the entire even. Why do you keep believing there was a "Fall"? There wasn't a Fall. Have you even studied the question of a Fall? It's not difficult to see the truth there wasn't a Fall of man.

The fall of man happened in the garden of Eden. You like everyone else can read about it in Gen 3. Hence the need for the Protoevangelium.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks I would offer

Apostle, sent messenger. How beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel of Christ

Not angel a fake word coined in the 11th century .Sounds the same as the Greek Angelos (messenger) . Having a whole different meaning given by the usurper, Legion a invisible creation of spirit gods guide .

Since you are so concerned over the exact word (semantics) rather than the action/inaction of God … I offer the exact word from Genesis:

3:24 וַיְגָרֶשׁ אֶת־הָאָדָם וַיַּשְׁכֵּן מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן־עֵדֶן אֶת־הַכְּרֻבִים וְאֵת לַהַט הַחֶרֶב הַמִּתְהַפֶּכֶת לִשְׁמֹר אֶת־דֶּרֶךְ עֵץ הַחַיִּים׃ ס

God still had no difficulty protecting a tree AFTER.
God still chose not to protect another tree BEFORE.
God is still not a helpless bystander in the events.

 

[Mr GLee]

Since you are so concerned over the exact word (semantics) rather than the action/inaction of God … I offer the exact word from Genesis:

3:24 וַיְגָרֶשׁ אֶת־הָאָדָם וַיַּשְׁכֵּן מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן־עֵדֶן אֶת־הַכְּרֻבִים וְאֵת לַהַט הַחֶרֶב הַמִּתְהַפֶּכֶת לִשְׁמֹר אֶת־דֶּרֶךְ עֵץ הַחַיִּים׃ ס

God still had no difficulty protecting a tree AFTER.
God still chose not to protect another tree BEFORE.
God is still not a helpless bystander in the events.

After who is talking about after?

The invisible tree of eternal life is still doing it works of drawing mankind to the gospel the fruit of the Holy Spirit

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

None of us has any idea of what heaven is actually like.

Actually, we do. When the Lord invades our lives He gives us a 'taste' or "down-payment" of the Holy Spirit. Heaven is not a place. Heaven is a Person.

More than likely a created realm of some sort as He Created the heavens and earth. Does that mean what is not ground?

Can't be a "created realm" unless that mansion Jesus said He goes to prepare is to be hid in Him and He in God the Father. Only God is eternal. It is His Nature and only God is eternal. Jesus said in prayer, a prayer that will be granted: (Here's a clue)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21–25.

Heaven is a Person.

Well Paul mentioned a third heaven, so I suspect that is a place or realm yet further from ground, if even spatial relationships apply.

It can also mean the experience he had under the anointing. I've had similar experiences.

As far as a heaven being eternal moving forward? Well ya, if God sustains it.
These are things we will not know until the eternal state is ushered in.

The eternal state has already been given to us but it is merely a portion, a very small portion because in order to get all of God as Jesus prayed in John 17 we have to die and enter eternity in a body glorified by God, a vessel given the grace to accept the Son and the Son in the Father. The Son is our "buffer" of sorts. Because the only way God can express Himself to us as created flesh glorified or not, is through the Son. Only through the Son.

One possible hint is that angels, who are creatures, can exist there. Then again, we do not even know if angels are actually corporeal. It may be that God just gave them the capability to have corporeal bodies when needed. Or perhaps, God gives them corporeal bodies when He requires it.
Its gonna be fun.

You're in the ballpark to understanding it. It'll be heaven.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The fall of man happened in the garden of Eden. You like everyone else can read about it in Gen 3. Hence the need for the Protoevangelium.

All these terms when we just take Scripture as written.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

In other words, sin comes from sinner.

Lying is a sin. There was no "Fall." They are already sinners created that way to sin because sin comes from sinners. But God knew this when He created man and already had a Plan to complete in order to bring a people to Himself.
God knew what would happen when He created man. Everything is going according to His plan..

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

By adding to God's Words "neither shall ye touch it" is boldfaced lying. This shows their wickedness because wickedness comes from the wicked and sin comes from sinner.

 

[Mr GLee]

Actually, we do. When the Lord invades our lives He gives us a 'taste' or "down-payment" of the Holy Spirit. Heaven is not a place. Heaven is a Person.

Can't be a "created realm" unless that mansion Jesus said He goes to prepare is to be hid in Him and He in God the Father. Only God is eternal. It is His Nature and only God is eternal. Jesus said in prayer, a prayer that will be granted: (Here's a clue)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
John 17:21–25.

Heaven is a Person.

It can also mean the experience he had under the anointing. I've had similar experiences.

The eternal state has already been given to us but it is merely a portion, a very small portion because in order to get all of God as Jesus prayed in John 17 we have to die and enter eternity in a body glorified by God, a vessel given the grace to accept the Son and the Son in the Father. The Son is our "buffer" of sorts. Because the only way God can express Himself to us as created flesh glorified or not, is through the Son. Only through the Son.

You're in the ballpark to understanding it. It'll be heaven.

Heaven is a place were a person dwell . Heaven is not a Jewish person as King of kings

 

[CrowCross]

All these terms when we just take Scripture as written.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

In other words, sin comes from sinner.

Lying is a sin. There was no "Fall." They are already sinners created that way to sin because sin comes from sinners. But God knew this when He created man and already had a Plan to complete in order to bring a people to Himself.
God knew what would happen when He created man. Everything is going according to His plan..

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

By adding to God's Words "neither shall ye touch it" is boldfaced lying. This shows their wickedness because wickedness comes from the wicked and sin comes from sinner.

"There was no "Fall.".....let me say it again...re-read Gen 3. Believe me, there was a fall.

 

[atpollard]

After who is talking about after?

God was [well, Moses was, but I believe that what Moses wrote is "God-breathed"] in the same story about the fall. Have you ever READ Genesis 3? Your statements leave me wondering if you ever read the actual text or all your information comes from "voices in your head" ...

Genesis 3 [NKJV]
22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[jeremiah1five]

"There was no "Fall.".....let me say it again...re-read Gen 3. Believe me, there was a fall.

Being created a sinner does not result in a "Fall" when the sinner sins. He only does what comes natural to him because that's the way He was created: of the earth, earthy, in weakness, dishonor, of clay, material matter.
Let me ask you: does sin come from sinner?
or
Does sin come from holy?

 

[CrowCross]

Let me ask you: does sin come from sinner?

Currently because of the fall we are all born sinners. We have a sin nature.

or
Does sin come from holy?

You'll need to explain this one a bit more.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Currently because of the fall we are all born sinners. We have a sin nature.

We're not talking about the false doctrine "Fall." What was their condition? Were they created sinful ("missing the mark") or were they created holy/righteous/sinless, etc?
Because if God Himself is the standard of perfection and the Law expressive of that perfection and the required perfection from men, then the only Person that can stand in God's Presence blameless is the Holy, Sinless, Son. And Saul as well as all of Scripture records God's Perfect expectation of sinlessness perfection and Adam sinned - even before he ate from the tree - showing himself sinful.

It is by virtue of a lamb being slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world that God would bear the sinful presence of man and the universe. Following Isaiah's declarations about God, that there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and [God] gives His glory (sinlessness, holiness, righteousness) to NO ONE, then the only conclusion of anything He creates - angel or man - is that they would be sinful ("missing the mark" - Strong's definition of sin.)

But the Constantinian Gentile theology on man is he was created holy, which then sin comes from holy because he sinned, or he was created sinless, which means sin comes from sinlessness and the question begs to be asked: God is sinless. How long before God sin since some believe sin comes from sinlessness. Or that God created man innocent, but innocent from what? Standing before a Holy God before Adam sinned doesn't address the question.
So, although you believe one of these things it all still fails to answer the question.

You'll need to explain this one a bit more.

It is said be some ignorant people that Adam was created holy (supposedly in the image of God who is holy) but if this is the case and Adam sinned then sin came from holy/holiness, which is a lie.

Another thing that must be addressed is that many say Adam was sinless - the Nature of God - which means God shared, copied, reduplicated, gave His glory to a created being which opens the door to a follow-up question: If Adam was holy and possessed this one Deific Attribute of God then he would have to possess ALL Deific Attributes of God (eternalness, Holiness, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, etc.), and he doesn't which would leave him fallen short of God's complete, perfect Deific glory and the word for this is sin.
Adam wasn't even eternal and this fact alone means he falls short of God's glory.

The word for that is SIN.

God created man sinful because that's the only way man can be created because there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (Holiness, Sinlessness, Eternalness, etc.), to NO ONE.

Even as glorified beings after everything is said and done and God's people are with Him men as glorified beings could STILL NOT stand before a Holy God which is why we are hid in Christ, clothed with HIS righteousness - which is righteousness imputed and not originally possessed by man in his creation, and this leaves our Advocate, our Paraclete, our Intercessor as the Middle-Man between us and the Father. The same applies to angels. ALL were created sinful and yet while one-third sinned thus expressing their creative make-up, others did not sin. Why? Because God withheld them. Angels do not possess original sinlessness. Besides these there are other questions that arise, such as God is just. Adam sinned. Yet animals die which is the judgment for sin. Why do animals suffer for another's sin? That is not just.

No, the best and only answer to man's creative make up using Isaiah's truths is that man was created sinful ("missing the mark" of the glory of God.)

 

[CrowCross]

We're not talking about the false doctrine "Fall." What was their condition? Were they created sinful ("missing the mark") or were they created holy/righteous/sinless, etc?

They were created holy/righteous/sinless, etc. That's not up for debate. This is how those washed by the blood of Christ will be made when they have received Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior and are fully sanctified and have received their glorified bodies. Restored.

God created man sinful

Sorry. God didn't create man sinful. Man ....Adam....had the ability to sin and eventually did sin. A&E could have said no.

 

[jeremiah1five]

They were created holy/righteous/sinless, etc. That's not up for debate.

Then as holy/righteous/sinless man you are in reality saying sin comes from holy/righteous/sinless man.
That's a contradiction. Jesus is Holy/Righteous/Sinless, how long and when do you think Jesus will sin since you believe sin comes from holy/righteous/sinless people?
Adam wasn't Omniscient, or Omnipotent, or Omnipresent, or eternal which means he falls short of God's glory. The word for that is SIN.

The Scripture teaches those who believe the bible that sin comes from sinner. But not you. You believe sin comes from holy/righteous/sinless people, which contradicts everything the bible teaches us about sin.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

Psst...that's in the bible. IT IS the Word of God.

This is how those washed by the blood of Christ will be made when they have received Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior and are fully sanctified and have received their glorified bodies. Restored.

Sorry. God didn't create man sinful. Man ....Adam....had the ability to sin and eventually did sin. A&E could have said no.

You are so confused. I'm not talking about after the cross. I'm talking about the sinful creation of Adam, who being of the earthy, earthy, was created sinful when held up to Glod's Complete and Perfect and Holy and Righteous and Sinless standards which is Himself.

Only Jesus Christ, the last Adam, can stand before a Holy/Righteous/Sinless God being the Lord from heaven.

Everyone else including Adam falls short of that glory.

You are infected by false Constantinian Gentile theology which isn't the theology of the Holy Scriptures.

 

[CrowCross]

Adam wasn't Omniscient, or Omnipotent, or Omnipresent, or eternal which means he falls short of God's glory. The word for that is SIN.

.

 

[jeremiah1five]

.

Childish.