Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

[Carbon]

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

If He did, why did He create man?

 

[Josheb]

Did God know Adam would sin...[?]

Yes

...and damn his race to hell before creating him?

No.

The wording needs to be changed. For one, there is only one "race;" the human race. Sinners and non-sinners are all both humans of the human race. Second, any sinner, regardless of race would experience the consequence of sin as decided by God when He designed creation. God had decided those who disobey Him would suffer death, the specific kind of death that occurs due to sin. That was decided prior to His creating Adam. It is meaningless to speak of Adam being "good" or "sinless," if that thesis hadn't already been decided. Third, the entire before/after paradigm is a red herring. Temporally speaking there are causes and effects and, therefore, a measure of time's passage occurs but God does not exist within the limits of time or space (or causality). God is eternal, and as such He exists external to the time He created. He is ever-present, or ever-now and never back-then-prior-to-x-happening, or never there-in-the-future-after-the-fact.

If He did, why did He create man?

Here again there is a problem with the question because the question silently assumes Adam's disobedience and humanity's damnation are relevant to God's plan.

They are not.

Jesus was foreknown as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20). Jesus was also the logos of God that was with God in the beginning who was God. His incarnation is, therefore, not a contingency. He was always going to come into the world and die and resurrect and ascend whether anyone sinned or not. To say otherwise is to say his existence in the world, his "foreknown-ness" is dependent upon the existence of sin. This is hugely problematic form many reasons (beginning with the Creator being dependent upon both the creature and His creation). Any Christology to the tree of life in Eden makes this apparent because the tree existed prior to humanity and it and its blessings/benefits existed whether Adam and Eve were sinless or sinful, obedient or disobedient.

Whatever the reason in His creating Man, it had nothing to do with sin, or at least was not predicated solely on sin's occurrence.




The better way to understand creation is that God has a purpose(s) that will be concluded as He see fit and His purpose already addresses the event of sin and its subsequent corruption.

As far as Calvinist doctrine goes, God ordained everything from creation but was not the author of sin, and He did no violence to the human will or the contingency of secondary causes when He ordained those "all things." Therefore His "damnation of the race" is not an afterthought. Neither was it a determinism that violated human will. Neither was it a determinism that violated already-existing causations (primary or secondary). At least these are the necessities to which any and all Calvinists must adhere if they are going to be consistent with their own doctrine(s). Adam knew he'd die if he disobeyed God. God had not damned Adam personally prior to Adam's disobedience but God had already decided all the disobedient (whoever they may be) would be damned and He had designed that into creation as an inescapable inevitability. God did know Adam would sin and thereby relegate himself and all his progeny to the consequence of sin (which is damnation).

Disappointing, but not a problem for why God created man. The Creator is above that kind of dependency. Adam's disobedience did not change the eternal purpose of God one smidgen of an iota.

If He did, why did He create man?

So that some men (and women) be those who would be born of God, based on His first born. His foreknowing Christ is extra-hamartiological. His knowledge of Adam's inevitable sin and His designing the consequences thereof was all already covered by 1 Peter 1:20. Adam's disobedience is disappointing, but not a problem for which God has to have another plan. His original plan already covered it all.

 

[Tambora]

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

If He did, why did He create man?

Oh boy!
I like these types of questions because they can delve into philosophy and theology, and each way of answering can have a counter argument.
So the best thing to do is to dive in and see how many angles can be presented.

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

It could be that since His creation would be "less" in wisdom than Himself then He logically foresaw there was a high probability of failure.
While at the same time He gave provision for a remedy (like medicine to cure an illness).

If He did, why did He create man?

It could be that, since God is love, He wanted to express that love.
It would be similar to us wanting to have a family (children) to love even though we know we would experience failures of our children.
In other words, it's worth the risk even with the probability that those children could rebel against you.

 

[Carbon]

Oh boy!
I like these types of questions because they can delve into philosophy and theology, and each way of answering can have a counter argument.
So the best thing to do is to dive in and see how many angles can be presented.


It could be that since His creation would be "less" in wisdom than Himself then He logically foresaw there was a high probability of failure.
While at the same time He gave provision for a remedy (like medicine to cure an illness).


It could be that, since God is love, He wanted to express that love.
It would be similar to us wanting to have a family (children) to love even though we know we would experience failures of our children.
In other words, it's worth the risk even with the probability that those children could rebel against you.

Though I don’t agree with all your replies, you are thoughtful. It’s nice to have a thinker get involved

 

[Carbon]

Yes

No.

The wording needs to be changed. For one, there is only one "race;" the human race. Sinners and non-sinners are all both humans of the human race. Second, any sinner, regardless of race would experience the consequence of sin as decided by God when He designed creation. God had decided those who disobey Him would suffer death, the specific kind of death that occurs due to sin. That was decided prior to His creating Adam. It is meaningless to speak of Adam being "good" or "sinless," if that thesis hadn't already been decided. Third, the entire before/after paradigm is a red herring. Temporally speaking there are causes and effects and, therefore, a measure of time's passage occurs but God does not exist within the limits of time or space (or causality). God is eternal, and as such He exists external to the time He created. He is ever-present, or ever-now and never back-then-prior-to-x-happening, or never there-in-the-future-after-the-fact.

Here again there is a problem with the question because the question silently assumes Adam's disobedience and humanity's damnation are relevant to God's plan.

They are not.

Jesus was foreknown as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice before the foundation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20). Jesus was also the logos of God that was with God in the beginning who was God. His incarnation is, therefore, not a contingency. He was always going to come into the world and die and resurrect and ascend whether anyone sinned or not. To say otherwise is to say his existence in the world, his "foreknown-ness" is dependent upon the existence of sin. This is hugely problematic form many reasons (beginning with the Creator being dependent upon both the creature and His creation). Any Christology to the tree of life in Eden makes this apparent because the tree existed prior to humanity and it and its blessings/benefits existed whether Adam and Eve were sinless or sinful, obedient or disobedient.

Whatever the reason in His creating Man, it had nothing to do with sin, or at least was not predicated solely on sin's occurrence.




The better way to understand creation is that God has a purpose(s) that will be concluded as He see fit and His purpose already addresses the event of sin and its subsequent corruption.

As far as Calvinist doctrine goes, God ordained everything from creation but was not the author of sin, and He did no violence to the human will or the contingency of secondary causes when He ordained those "all things." Therefore His "damnation of the race" is not an afterthought. Neither was it a determinism that violated human will. Neither was it a determinism that violated already-existing causations (primary or secondary). At least these are the necessities to which any and all Calvinists must adhere if they are going to be consistent with their own doctrine(s). Adam knew he'd die if he disobeyed God. God had not damned Adam personally prior to Adam's disobedience but God had already decided all the disobedient (whoever they may be) would be damned and He had designed that into creation as an inescapable inevitability. God did know Adam would sin and thereby relegate himself and all his progeny to the consequence of sin (which is damnation).

Disappointing, but not a problem for why God created man. The Creator is above that kind of dependency. Adam's disobedience did not change the eternal purpose of God one smidgen of an iota.

So that some men (and women) be those who would be born of God, based on His first born. His foreknowing Christ is extra-hamartiological. His knowledge of Adam's inevitable sin and His designing the consequences thereof was all already covered by 1 Peter 1:20. Adam's disobedience is disappointing, but not a problem for which God has to have another plan. His original plan already covered it all.

Ever think your to critical in places you don’t always need to be? Just curious

 

[Tambora]

Though I don’t agree with all your replies,

Give an alternate viewpoint.

you are thoughtful. It’s nice to have a thinker get involved

People have been sitting around a campfire together discussing philosophy and theology for centuries.
I don't see having our own beliefs questioned and questioning the beliefs of others as a bad thing.
Because, let's face it, someone might come up with a perspective that we have not thought about before.

 

[Josheb]

Ever think your to critical in places you don’t always need to be? Just curious

Relevance?

 

[fastfredy0]

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

Yes, otherwise God is not all-knowing. IF He is not all knowing He cannot be all-wise as wisdom is dependent upon knowledge. Also, God would not immutable or perfect if His knowledge changed.

If He did, why did He create man

God is the first cause and therefore there is no WHY when referring to God as there is nothing to affect Him.


You keep things interesting via asking such questions. Thanks Carbon

 

[atpollard]

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

Yes.

If He did, why did He create man?

For the good of man and the glory of God.

Without the fall, man would be an obedient CREATURE that was loved by God because he was obedient.
With the fall, all of creation (including the angels) stand as witnesses to the unimaginable love of God for a disobedient and rebellious creature that God chooses in love to sacrifice Himself in order to transform and elevate us from mere creature to BELOVED CHILDREN.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God knew that in creating man he would certainly be sinful and missing the mark of the glory of God.

For Scripture says in Isaiah, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, (and) He gives His glory to NO ONE."

Thus, having and understanding these three cornerstones on the Nature and Attributes of God the conclusions will clearly answer those questions.

Sin comes from sinner, which is why the man and woman sinned and disobeyed God. They were sinners before they disobeyed and ate from the tree. "As saith the ancients, wickedness proceedeth from the wicked."
1 Sam. 24:13.

At the time this was written who's to say the ancients may have been those closely living near the time of the Garden.

 

[CrowCross]

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

If He did, why did He create man?

fastfredy0 got it right...​

Yes, otherwise God is not all-knowing. IF He is not all knowing He cannot be all-wise as wisdom is dependent upon knowledge. Also, God would not immutable or perfect if His knowledge changed.

Now, as to why? Let me suggest....God has to demonstrate all of His attributes. Two are Grace and Mercy. Creating man knowing we would fall is a way of demonstrating Grace and Mercy through the shed sacrificial blood of Christ Jesus.

 

[CrowCross]

They were sinners before they disobeyed and ate from the tree.

That's not biblical. In other words there is no verse that says this. This is speculation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's not biblical. In other words there is no verse that says this. This is speculation.

Lying is a sin.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

They sinned when they added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it."

 

[CrowCross]

Lying is a sin.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

They sinned when they added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it."

Perhaps...but I believe we have to look at the entire event...and the actual breaking of Gods commandment.
If Eve actually lied and said...."neither shall ye touch it."....I don't think that would have caused them and all of their progeny to fall.

 

[Alive]

Yes!
Could He have done things differently in order to manifest His Eternal Purpose as mentioned by Paul in Ephesians?

 

[CrowCross]

Yes!
Could He have done things differently in order to manifest His Eternal Purpose as mentioned by Paul in Ephesians?

Perhaps, but I doubt it. That would be like asking did Jesus really have to die on the cross in my place...or could He have done it another way.

 

[Alive]

Paul said a mouthful here…think of gentiles as Peoples or Nations. And what was the final reason for the unveiling of the Mystery?

“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the administration of God’s grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before briefly. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to enlighten all people as to what the plan of the mystery is which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; so that the multifaceted wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.”

(Ephesians 3:1-12 NAS20)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Perhaps...but I believe we have to look at the entire event...and the actual breaking of Gods commandment.
If Eve actually lied and said...."neither shall ye touch it."....I don't think that would have caused them and all of their progeny to fall.

There's not much to see of the entire even. Why do you keep believing there was a "Fall"? There wasn't a Fall. Have you even studied the question of a Fall? It's not difficult to see the truth there wasn't a Fall of man.
If you believe Isaiah's declarations, then the question of what "condition" or "state" the man and woman were in when created isn't difficult. This is what Isaiah said:

1. There is only ONE God.

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
And his redeemer the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last;
And beside me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6.

2. There is NONE like Him.
9 Remember the former things of old:
For I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:9.

3. He gives His glory to NO ONE.

8 I am the LORD: that is my name:
And my glory will I not give to another,
Isaiah 42:8.


This is Theology Proper 101.

And there's another thing. God is Sovereign over His creation. It cannot be any other way. Think about it. Can God create something or someone being more sovereign than He? And this involves anything God is.
Can He create someone more powerful than He? (see #2 and #3.)
Can He create anyone that is eternal like He? (see #2 and #3.)
Can He create someone having omniscience as He? (see #1, #2, and #3.)
And we can go through all the glorious attributes and the revealed nature of God and fail to pass #1, #2, #3, in our conclusions. The question that really needs to be asked and answer in the negative is "Can God reduplicate Himself"? And can God reduplicate Himself in any of His created beings - angel or man. And really there is only angel and man in creation.

But the Constantinian Gentile theology teaches things that violate all three of Isaiah's truths.

Gentiles teach man was created holy, or sinless, or righteous, or innocent, etc.
These are laughable.
There is also this. If God created man with any ONE deific attribute or nature of God, then by necessity man must also possess ALL deific attributes or nature of God or that man falls short of God's perfect standard of existence and that standard is Himself. Any blemish or marring in the created man dooms the man to a sinful state.
Only the Son and the Spirit can stand before a holy God blameless. Everything else in creation falls short of the glory of God's Person and existence. I don't believe in a heaven that is eternal. Can't be such a thing. Unless one can say heaven is a Person. Because the only Person who is eternal is God.
Is heaven eternal? Has it always existed without no beginning? It's a place, a location, a thing. Can these be eternal without beginning and with no end? Another Alpha and Omega?

 

[Alive]

Is heaven eternal? Has it always existed without no beginning? It's a place, a location, a thing. Can these be eternal without beginning and with no end? Another Alpha and Omega?

None of us has any idea of what heaven is actually like. More than likely a created realm of some sort as He Created the heavens and earth. Does that mean what is not ground?
Well Paul mentioned a third heaven, so I suspect that is a place or realm yet further from ground, if even spatial relationships apply.
As far as a heaven being eternal moving forward? Well ya, if God sustains it.
These are things we will not know until the eternal state is ushered in.
One possible hint is that angels, who are creatures, can exist there. Then again, we do not even know if angels are actually corporeal. It may be that God just gave them the capability to have corporeal bodies when needed. Or perhaps, God gives them corporeal bodies when He requires it.
Its gonna be fun.

 

[Mr GLee]

Did God know Adam would sin and damn his race to hell before creating him?

If He did, why did He create man?

I would think our merciful God did not.

Lucifer failed to protect the glory of the Faithful Creator. Our God who is light and not that he can only create it temporally. Lucifer the lying spirit claiming he is the creator. Look (lust of the eye )and see . touch and eat( lust of flesh) the two building block of false pride

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.