Definite Atonement

[TibiasDad]

You're simply back peddling and then re-asserting your argument.

It is your’s to demonstrate that I have explicitly stated that we are all goats who become sheep. I have made the same argument over and over again, never wavering, never backtracking, never altering.

Instead of doing that, why don't you put forth an argument for your position rather than just stating it. Tell us what John chapter 10 is saying.

Pardon me, but this is not my OP. I’m arguing against your argument. It is your argument to prove, not mine.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

If that is the case, what does "all" mean in "all men?"

As I have stated to @Eleanor:

“All means all without exception unless there is a qualifying statement that limits it to all of a specific type or group, ie, all males, or all females. If it says “all men/people” it means all mankind/human beings. Yes, all people included both Jews and non-Jews/Gentiles, but it includes all those within both camps of people, unless there is a specific qualification that necessarily limits it. “All people” as stated, can only mean all individuals, both Jewish and Gentiles. There is nothing in the context of the passages I cited that specifies a limitation of any part of all Jews and Gentiles.”

As a result of Adam’s sin, every single person has sinned, and is under death. As a result of Jesus’s death and resurrection, all the whole world’s sin is atoned for, and life is now available to all men, every single individual, when they become believers.

Doug

 

[Arial]

“All means all without exception unless there is a qualifying statement that limits it to all of a specific type or group, ie, all males, or all females. If it says “all men/people” it means all mankind/human beings. Yes, all people included both Jews and non-Jews/Gentiles, but it includes all those within both camps of people, unless there is a specific qualification that necessarily limits it. “All people” as stated, can only mean all individuals, both Jewish and Gentiles. There is nothing in the context of the passages I cited that specifies a limitation of any part of all Jews and Gentiles.”

You are saying it means two things both at the same time. All nations, peoples, languages, without exception, and also at the same time and same place means every individuals.

As a result of Adam’s sin, every single person has sinned, and is under death. As a result of Jesus’s death and resurrection, all the whole world’s sin is atoned for, and life is now available to all men, every single individual, when they become believers.

This is said over and over again, and those who declare it never once see the oxymoron in it. If all the whole world's sins are atoned for by the blood of Jesus, then it is atoned for. But since that isn't true, a caveat is added as though that fixes the situation. What it does is make the shed blood of Jesus for the most part, a debt paid and not accepted by God.

 

[Arial]

It is your’s to demonstrate that I have explicitly stated that we are all goats who become sheep. I have made the same argument over and over again, never wavering, never backtracking, never altering.

Every time you deny saying it you end up saying it again.

Pardon me, but this is not my OP. I’m arguing against your argument. It is your argument to prove, not mine.

I have each and every time put forth a defense of my argument. If you are arguing against it then you must do so by putting forth a defense of what you say, and find the holes in what I say. I have shown you where I arrive at what John 10 is saying, it is your turn as I am asking you to tell me.

 

[Eleanor]

This is not “a prayer of atonement”.

It is the prayer before his atonement, and follows the order of the High Priestly prayer on the Day of Atonement, who offered sacrifice only for the people of God (who did not offer sacrifice for the world and did not include the world) in his High Priestly prayer (Lev 16:16, 15, 17),
first, for himself (Jn 17:4-5),
secondly, for his household (Jn 17:6-19),
thirdly, for all who believe (Jn 17:20-24).

This is a prayer for protection of his present day disciples and for the sanctification of all, present and future, who will believe. So it was not a prayer about the nonbelievers of the world, but a prayer for all in the whole world that had, at that time, and would, in the future, believe.

Precisely, they were specifically excluded by Jesus: "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me." (Jn 17:9),
just as the world was excluded by the OT High Priest on the Day of Atonement.

All means all without exception unless there is a qualifying statement that limits it to all of a specific type or group, ie, all males, or all females..

Nope. . .

"All" has two meanings. The correct one is determined by its agreement with the rest of the NT.
Hermeneutics 101.

If it says “all men/people” it means all mankind/human beings. Yes, all people included both Jews and non-Jews/Gentiles, but it includes all those within both camps of people, unless there is a specific qualification that necessarily limits it. “All people” as stated, can only mean all individuals, both Jewish and Gentiles. There is nothing in the context of the passages I cited that specifies a limitation of any part of all Jews and Gentiles.

Your insertion of limitation is based on a preconceived assumption

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

of a limitation that cannot be found in the text itself, thus you are placing it in the text.

Nope. . .

That limitation is found in the rest of the NT, with which all correct interpretation must agree.

 

[Eleanor]

As I have stated to @Eleanor:

“All means all without exception unless there is a qualifying statement that limits it to all of a specific type or group, ie, all males, or all females. If it says “all men/people” it means all mankind/human beings. Yes, all people included both Jews and non-Jews/Gentiles, but it includes all those within both camps of people, unless there is a specific qualification that necessarily limits it. “All people” as stated, can only mean all individuals, both Jewish and Gentiles. There is nothing in the context of the passages I cited that specifies a limitation of any part of all Jews and Gentiles.”
As a result of Adam’s sin, every single person has sinned, and is under death. As a result of Jesus’s death and resurrection, all the whole world’s sin is atoned for, and life is now available to all men, every single individual, when they become believers.

So the same sins of the unredeemed are paid for twice, once by Jesus, and again by themselves in hell?

That is not justice in any system, and surely not in God's!

 

[TibiasDad]

That limitation is found in the rest of the NT, with which all correct interpretation must agree.

The problem is the limitation, as you define it, is not found in the NT. But thank you for admitting that it is not found directly in the text.

Doug

 

[Arial]

The problem is the limitation, as you define it, is not found in the NT. But thank you for admitting that it is not found directly in the text.

Doug

There is limitation found in the text. All those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not are condemned already. That is just one place. Reformed theology presents a definite atonement. Christ died for those God is giving Him. Free will has an atonement that is limited to those who freely chose Him. Reformed theology has an atonement that is limited in scope but accomplishes all that it was intended to accomplish. Free will has an atonement that is limited in power and accomplishment.

 

[Eleanor]

The problem is the limitation, as you define it, is not found in the NT. But thank you for admitting that it is not found directly in the text.

Doug

It's found in the text when it is understood in the light of all the NT, which is the only correct way to understand the text.

 

[TibiasDad]

So the same sins of the unredeemed are paid for twice, once by Jesus, and again by themselves in hell?

If something is paid for, then there is no need for forgiveness. Atoned for means to turn aside wrath; God’s wrath was turned aside by Christ’s death; God can now offer forgiveness to anyone who believes in Christ’s work. Those who don’t believe, have rejected God’s kindness provided by Christ’s death. They are not forgiven!

Besides, the only sin that ultimately matters is unbelief. That is why people are condemned, because of unbelief. Belief means life, unbelief means death. (John 3:17-18)


Doug

 

[Eleanor]

If something is paid for, then there is no need for forgiveness. Atoned for means to turn aside wrath; God’s wrath was turned aside by Christ’s death;

Only those on whom is God's wrath are condemned.
Removal of God's wrath makes all in right standing with God, and all go to heaven.

God can now offer forgiveness to anyone who believes in Christ’s work. Those who don’t believe, have rejected God’s kindness provided by Christ’s death. They are not forgiven!

Nope. . .

Christ died for them, he paid their debt and Christ's work is never inefficacious.
If i pay my brother's fine up at the Courthouse for speeding, he is clear with the Courthouse, no punishment owing, whether he knows it or not.

Besides, the only sin that ultimately matters is unbelief.

So if Christ paid for all unbelief, then all sin debt is paid, all are right with God who does not charge twice for the same debt of unbelief, which is unjust and, therefore, all being right with God, all go to heaven.

 

[TibiasDad]

Precisely, they were specifically excluded by Jesus: "I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me." (Jn 17:9),
just as the world was excluded by the OT High Priest on the Day of Atonement.

No, there is a difference between not being the subject matter of the prayer and being excluded from the possibility of being atoned.

The nation of Israel was chosen as a representative nation to show the world what God desires and lead the world toward God: “Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:5-6).”

They were meant to be the reconcilers between God and the nations. Jesus came to, in part, fulfill what Israel had failed to do, as Isaiah says in Isaiah 42:
6“I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
7to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

The world, as a whole, is, and has been God’s focus all along. There is no dichotomy of love, “for God loved the World in this manner” by giving his Son to all men.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

There is limitation found in the text. All those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not are condemned already.

But this is a limitation of results, not of potential. You limit the potential by means of predestination, some to life and some to death, by God’s decree, not by man believing or disbelieving the gospel. God desire’s all men to be saved, and has provided the means whereby anyone “might, perhaps, reach out for him and find him”. (Acts 17:27)

That is just one place. Reformed theology presents a definite atonement. Christ died for those God is giving Him. Free will has an atonement that is limited to those who freely chose Him.

So does the Bible! It’s called those who believe!

Reformed theology has an atonement that is limited in scope but accomplishes all that it was intended to accomplish.

So does Arminian theology. It saves all who believe, and no one who is a believer is ever lost! It provides hope and potential for all men, as intended, and it saves all who believe, as promised!

Free will has an atonement that is limited in power and accomplishment.

I just proved that wrong above! It has power to save all men if they believe, and it actually saves all who do! All the power that is needed is to keep the promises made, and it has that plus!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So if Christ paid for all unbelief, then all sin debt is paid, all are right with God who does not charge twice for the same debt of unbelief, which is unjust and, therefore, all being right with God, all go to heaven.

Unbelief is forgivable if repented of through belief! Sin is paid for only when one is justified by faith. All sin, save the unpardonable sin, is capable of being atoned for if repented of. Christ blood is sufficient for all sin, and is effectual for all sin confessed and repented of.

Again, Christ’s blood reconciled God to the world, not the world to God. God’s perspective of the world was changed by Christ’s death, He now can look at us with compassion instead of anger and wrath, and can offer grace to forgive, which by definition means to release from debt, not having that debt fulfilled, and eating the loss! (Matt 18:21-ff)

There is only a logical potential for universalism if your version of the atonement is applied, which is what you seem to imply my position to assert. I don’t assert it and cannot assert it given my position regarding the nature of the atonement. Sin is only actually dealt with in forgiveness and belief, otherwise it is not effected at all, though it can be.


Doug

 

[Arial]

But this is a limitation of results, not of potential. You limit the potential by means of predestination, some to life and some to death, by God’s decree, not by man believing or disbelieving the gospel. God desire’s all men to be saved, and has provided the means whereby anyone “might, perhaps, reach out for him and find him”. (Acts 17:27)

This is a distorted portrayal of the doctrine of predestination. It does not teach that salvation is not by believing but only by predestination. And salvation being dependant on a free will choice is a limitation of potential since the claim is made that Jesus died for all men whether they believed or not but was only effectual if they did believe. It is a limitation of both results and potential.

Predestination does not limit the potential of the cross. That is just the reasoning of those who do not believe/understand the doctrine. If God chooses who to save and they are therefore predestined to be saved, then everything the cross was intended to do was done. And would you not agree that it is God's place as sovereign creator of all He created to have every right to choose who He will to save? Even if you don't think He does choose, does He not have the right to? And does He not say "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy?" And if His desire is that all men, all people, would be saved, would He then leave the salvation of any up to the will of fallen man who does not desire Him by nature, to determine whether His own desires are met or not? Does that sound like something God would do, when He has the power to save every individual?

 

[Eleanor]

No, there is a difference between not being the subject matter of the prayer and being excluded from the possibility of being atoned.

Not when the prayer was for those for whom he was atoning, and he states that he is not praying for the world, just as the OT High Priest, the pattern of the NT High Priest, did not pray for nor atone for the world.

 

[Eleanor]

Unbelief is forgivable if repented of through belief! Sin is paid for only when one is justified by faith.

Then Christ did not die for all those who die in unbelief.

 

[Arial]

So does the Bible! It’s called those who believe!

That is not the issue. The issue is choosing to believe. Or being chosen to believe. Show me one place in the NT where choosing is attached to the words "those who believe" or "believe" or "repent."

What do you say this means? Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

So does Arminian theology. It saves all who believe, and no one who is a believer is ever lost! It provides hope and potential for all men, as intended, and it saves all who believe, as promised!

No it doesn't. Arminian theology says it saves all who choose to believe.

I just proved that wrong above! It has power to save all men if they believe, and it actually saves all who do! All the power that is needed is to keep the promises made, and it has that plus!

In Reformed theology the cross has the power to save all men but only saves those who God gives to Jesus as it was intended to and who Christ died for. In Arminian theology it has the power to save all men, Jesus died for all men, but it only saves some of those men He died for, just the ones who choose to be saved. In a sense it has Jesus being crucified piece meal, the effectiveness of His death waiting to see who chooses. Reformed theology has Him dying once and in that dying securing the salvation for all time for those who God, before the foundation of the world, chose to save.

 

[TibiasDad]

This is a distorted portrayal of the doctrine of predestination. It does not teach that salvation is not by believing but only by predestination.

No it is not! The decree of God is the point of necessity; all that follows is mere detail. The predetermining of God that X is chosen, and Y is not, establishes the finished results. Belief does not, unbelief does not. That is merely a “fashion accessory” to the clothing of the Elect and Reprobates. God’s choice is the decision point of certainty. Nothing else needs to happen from that point on for the results to be certain.

And salvation being dependant on a free will choice is a limitation of potential since the claim is made that Jesus died for all men whether they believed or not but was only effectual if they did believe. It is a limitation of both results and potential.

It is not a limitation of potential, for all men may believe. There is equal potential, from God’s perspective, for he desires, and would allow anyone to be saved. No one, as a general rule of principle, is uniformly bound from being saved. Potential is all on the God side of the equation, for man can not mandate that God to do anything, so any limitation is purely on the results side, and failure is completely on man’s shoulders, while salvation is purely on God’s ledger because he is the only one who can save, forgive, adopt, and allow for reconciliation, and this is all gracious because God does not have to do anything good for us. It is all of God from first to last. He grants the potential, he sets the protocols (which include man’s responsibility to believe, repent, and confess), and fulfills his promise to save, the only semblance of obligation placed on God by God, not by man’s actions.

God requires man to repent, confess and believe. God chooses when he will and will not act. God says he will act subsequent to man’s required actions. God then exercises his power and restores the broken relationship with those who believe in Christ.

The gospel operates just exactly as God intended; its potential is unlimited, its power is unrestrained within the requirements of the gospel, then only limits are humanly self-imposed through unbelief. God limits no one, God calls all men to repentance. Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Then Christ did not die for all those who die in unbelief.

To die on behalf of those who will not believe is not to say it failed, but only that its efficacy is not taken by the sinner. It is refused by them! Christ’s work is still capable of saving, but the unbelieving heart, by God’s design, will not allow God to apply the efficacy to the sinner’s life. God says “to those who receive him, he will give the right to become the children of God.” (John 1:12) Receiving/believing precedes the giving of the rights.

Doug