Definite Atonement

[Arial]

In principle, same as you; anywhere that unbelievers become believers, where lost become found, where the blind become sighted. The only difference between us is that you say believers are predestined to believe necessarily.

Doug

Does the Bible say we are all like goats gone astray? Where do you even get the idea that some goats become sheep. Should a person maybe treat a metaphor, figure of speech, simili, etc. the way in which it is used in the place where it is used, and not consider that everytime the same one is used it always means the same thing.

 

[TibiasDad]

Except for Jn 6, as explained in post #79.

v. 15 - I lay down my life for the sheep.
v. 26 - You are not my sheep.

1) I’m sure you meant John 10.

2) 10:15 speaks of “the sheep”, we are all part of “the sheep”, for we have all gone astray. “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1Jn 2:2)
Note, “not only ours”, those who are currently believers, “but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Also, Jesus is speaking specifically about Jewish/non-Gentile, my sheep referring to Jews. The “other sheep not of this pen” are Gentiles. “My sheep” are not the class of the elect.

3) Jn 10:26 is not in the same context as 10:15: the context changes at vs 22, so they are not directly connected.

There are some for whom Jesus did not lay down his life, as is plainly seen in his high priestly prayer at the last supper, stating for whom his sacrifice was offered (Jn 17:9, 2, 6, 24).
He did not pray for the world, but specifically excluded it.
He prayed only for those whom the Father gave him,
just as all the sacrifices at the temple were offered only for God's people, and not for the world (Lev 16:34),
which was specifically excluded from the temple.

John 17 is about the disciples (the 12, and the others who had believed and followed Jesus.) At verse 20, he extends the prayer to include all who will also believe.

Again, in addition to 1 Jn 2:2, the Bible teaches that “… the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.” (Titus 2:11) And, “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” (Rom 5:18-19)

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Does the Bible say we are all like goats gone astray?

Did I say it did?

Where do you even get the idea that some goats become sheep.

I get the idea that foreigners become family, and enemies become friends from scripture. If that is true, then I suppose a figurative goat can become a figurative sheep. “With God, all things are possible!”

Should a person maybe treat a metaphor, figure of speech, simili, etc. the way in which it is used in the place where it is used, and not consider that everytime the same one is used it always means the same thing.

You seem to be operating as if it does! But this is not necessarily true.

Doug

 

[Carbon]

In principle, same as you; anywhere that unbelievers become believers, where lost become found, where the blind become sighted. The only difference between us is that you say believers are predestined to believe necessarily.

Doug

I'd say there are more differences. I agree at one time all were unbelievers. By nature, all were children of wrath. But by saying an unbeliever becomes a believer, its much different than saying a goat becomes a sheep. All over scripture are teaching that unbelievers become believers, it's quite obvious; but nowhere is the teaching a goat becomes a sheep, not even once. That just doesn't happen.

, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. John 10.
Now we know by nature we were all children of wrath, as unbelievers.

But notice Jesus does not say, my unbelievers hear my voice etc, ect......... Nor does he say, my goats here my voice....
But, "my sheep." This shows a limited atonement and God's choosing.

And they are also identified as sheep given to him, 29 My Father, who has given them to me,

There is just no way around it brother.

 

[Carbon]

Does the Bible say we are all like goats gone astray? Where do you even get the idea that some goats become sheep. Should a person maybe treat a metaphor, figure of speech, simili, etc. the way in which it is used in the place where it is used, and not consider that everytime the same one is used it always means the same thing.

 

[Carbon]

2) 10:15 speaks of “the sheep”, we are all part of “the sheep”, for we have all gone astray.

Yes, we Christians are.

“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1Jn 2:2)

Yes, from every tribe tongue and nation, not just the Jews but Gentiles as well.

Note, “not only ours”, those who are currently believers, “but also for the sins of the whole world.”

 

[Carbon]

Did I say it did?]

Did you say it without actually using those words? I think so.

 

[Arial]

Did I say it did?

You at one point implied that goats can turn into sheep, which would mean we are all goats and some of us turn into sheep, and that purely by our own design and will. If I must go through all the pages of this thread and other threads in case it was done in a different thread, to give the evidence, I may do that. Or you can just admit that you said that. However there is a whole discussion of the inability of goats to turn into sheep that went on because of that statement.

I get the idea that foreigners become family, and enemies become friends from scripture. If that is true, then I suppose a figurative goat can become a figurative sheep. “With God, all things are possible!”

And there. You have said it again. What does foreigners become family and enemies become friends have to do with for example, as it became a big part of the discussion, Jesus has a sheepfold made up of His sheep, and other sheep not of "that pasture" which would be the Jews to whom He was speaking, the pasture being Israel, and that He must go gather them. They are those God has given Him and they will hear His voice and follow Him. (Which is a picture of a literal shepherd and the literal flock of sheep of that shepherd that Jesus is using to convey His truth, and which was discussed in John 10 before He said those words.) Those sheep know Him and He knows them. When He calls, they recognize His voice and follow Him. They aren't goats (the unbelievers in the judgement) that decide to be a sheep. And they are not sheep who belong to another sheperd that decide to follow a stranger.

They must have been His sheep all along, before the foundation of the world, who had gone astray, and He came to gather them to Himself. When they heard His voice and followed Him it is because He "found" them. With His rod and His staff. The Good Shepherd who looses none who the Father has given Him.

You seem to be operating as if it does! But this is not necessarily true.

As if it does what?

 

[Mr GLee]

atonement . . . . . at one moment . . . one gives power to hear one God and power to do the will of Him. . . both to will and to do (philippians 2:13)

The prophet Jesus our example of the fathers perfect love, he cried out not as I will the powerless one but you father the one with power to raise the dead from their tressapases and sin without God (faithless),

He is our confidence as a living hope. Philipian 1:6 informs us if he began the good teaching work in us he will still be teaching us on our last day.Open book test.

Ageing can slow a person down preventing from moving to fast possibly passing by a pearl of great price. God is super patient. Take it from a slower who did not raise his hand as in embarrassment . can't take it back and there is no fool like a old , feeling groovy like the Simon and Garfunkel's song 60's (slow down measure twice cut once) make it a adventure sent on a mission from the wife LOL

 

[Mr GLee]

Aside from Protestantism and Catholicism, how do you reconcile the verses you have posted here with the fact that not everybody is saved?

I would suggest we do not reconcile the word of God with any denomination .

Where two or three are gathered under the hearing of his labor of love or called work of faith he is there working in thier hearts' .

He warns of those false apostle, false prophets called antichrists (a false teaching authroity) other than the word of God. . as tradition of dying mankind that insist dying mankind is the teacher and not our Holy Father in heaven. we are not to hear our ideas of what we think we preach and hope he enlightens the heart of another.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Two or three a family or nation the savoir of all the families . Two is the witness God has spoken

The phrase "as many as" is used many times over and over to indicate a parable is in view It would seem to indicate a unknown remnant they received the power to beleive the others annihilation

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

[Eleanor]

There are some for whom Jesus did not lay down his life, as is plainly seen in his high priestly prayer at the last supper, stating for whom his sacrifice was offered (Jn 17:9, 2, 6, 24).
He did not pray for the world, but specifically excluded it (Jn 17:9),
He prayed only for those whom the Father gave him throughout time (Jn 172, 6 24),
just as all the sacrifices at the temple were offered only for God's people, and not for the world (Lev 16:34),
which was specifically excluded from the temple.

John 17 is about the disciples (the 12, and the others who had believed and followed Jesus.) At verse 20, he extends the prayer to include all who will also believe.

Non-responsive.

Again, in addition to 1 Jn 2:2, the Bible teaches that “… the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.” (Titus 2:11) And, “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” (Ro (m 5:18-19)

And yet, NT teaching throughout is that all only those of faith in Christ are justified.

In light of the context of disobedience of "the one man" vs. the obedience of "the one man," not to mention the rest of the NT, the texts above are referring to the two Adam's, the first Adam (of Eden) and the last Adam (Christ), whereby all those of the first Adam are condemned and all those of the last Adam are justified.

Instead of reconciling Scripture to itself, you set it against itself, thereby demonstrating your necessary error.

 

[TibiasDad]

Non-responsive.

It is a response by definition.

And yet, NT teaching throughout is that all only those of faith in Christ are justified.

Yes, only those who believe are justified. I have never said anything different.

In light of the context of disobedience of "the one man" vs. the obedience of "the one man," not to mention the rest of the NT, the texts above are referring to the two Adam's, the first Adam (of Eden) and the last Adam (Christ), whereby all those of the first Adam are condemned and all those of the last Adam are justified.

The two Adam’s are true, but it is as the first Adam’s actions brought death to all men, so has the action of the second brought life to all men, and all men who believe will have life.

Instead of reconciling Scripture to itself, you set it against itself, thereby demonstrating your necessary error.

<sigh>

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

You at one point implied that goats can turn into sheep, which would mean we are all goats and some of us turn into sheep, and that purely by our own design and will.

I have never specifically said that we are goats that become sheep. In fact, I have said that goats are never mentioned in relation to men until the judgement, and there is is an illustration describing how unbelievers and believers are divided, separated and placed to either side of Jesus. So technically speaking, it’s not really calling men sheep or goats but that they are separated “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

I have only said that sinners can become saints, that dead become living, that blind are made to see! (And other analogies too.)
The use of literally changing from a goat to a sheep is a stilted argument. All the things that I have mentioned are real life and actual experiences and they certainly are undeniable, thus, they would certainly imply that such a change as a goat changing to a sheep is possible with God!

Doug

 

[Mr GLee]

I have never specifically said that we are goats that become sheep. In fact, I have said that goats are never mentioned in relation to men until the judgement, and there is is an illustration describing how unbelievers and believers are divided, separated and placed to either side of Jesus. So technically speaking, it’s not really calling men sheep or goats but that they are separated “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

I have only said that sinners can become saints, that dead become living, that blind are made to see! (And other analogies too.)
The use of literally changing from a goat to a sheep is a stilted argument. All the things that I have mentioned are real life and actual experiences and they certainly are undeniable, thus, they would certainly imply that such a change as a goat changing to a sheep is possible with God!

Doug

In one way the lamb of God sent out as a scapegoat at the beginning of the ministry of two .Mathew 4.

What distinguishes the sheep from the goats is the acceptance or rejection of Jesus' message.

 

[Carbon]

In one way the lamb of God sent out as a scapegoat at the beginning of the ministry of two .Mathew 4.

What distinguishes the sheep from the goats is the acceptance or rejection of Jesus' message.

Well, those who accept (because of regeneration) prove to be sheep.

 

[Mr GLee]

Well, those who accept (because of regeneration) prove to be sheep.

Exactly!

 

[Arial]

I have never specifically said that we are goats that become sheep. In fact, I have said that goats are never mentioned in relation to men until the judgement, and there is is an illustration describing how unbelievers and believers are divided, separated and placed to either side of Jesus. So technically speaking, it’s not really calling men sheep or goats but that they are separated “as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

I have only said that sinners can become saints, that dead become living, that blind are made to see! (And other analogies too.)
The use of literally changing from a goat to a sheep is a stilted argument. All the things that I have mentioned are real life and actual experiences and they certainly are undeniable, thus, they would certainly imply that such a change as a goat changing to a sheep is possible with God!

Doug

You're simply back peddling and then re-asserting your argument. Instead of doing that, why don't you put forth an argument for your position rather than just stating it. Tell us what John chapter 10 is saying.

 

[Arial]

The two Adam’s are true, but it is as the first Adam’s actions brought death to all men, so has the action of the second brought life to all men, and all men who believe will have life.

If that is the case, what does "all" mean in "all men?"

 

[Eleanor]

It is a response by definition.

Contraire. . .

It does not respond to:
He did not pray for the world, but specifically excluded it (Jn 17:9),
as you claim.

Yes, only those who believe are justified. I have never said anything different.
The two Adam’s are true, but it is as the first Adam’s actions brought death to all men, so has the action of the second brought life to all men, and all men who believe will have life.

He did not bring life for those for whom he specifically excluded from his prayer of atonement; i.e., the world.

"I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me. . .My prayer is not for them alone, but also for those who will believe in me"
(Jn 17:9, 20).

"All" has two meanings:
1) all without exception (everyone),
2) all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew).

 

[TibiasDad]

He did not bring life for those for whom he specifically excluded from his prayer of atonement; i.e., the world.

"I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me. . .My prayer is not for them alone, but also for those who will believe in me"
(Jn 17:9, 20).

This is not “a prayer of atonement”. This is a prayer for protection of his present day disciples and for the sanctification of all, present and future, who will believe. So it was not a prayer about the nonbelievers of the world, but a prayer for all in the whole world that had, at that time, and would, in the future, believe.

"All" has two meanings:
1) all without exception (everyone),
2) all without distinction (Gentile as well as Jew).

All means all without exception unless there is a qualifying statement that limits it to all of a specific type or group, ie, all males, or all females. If it says “all men/people” it means all mankind/human beings. Yes, all people included both Jews and non-Jews/Gentiles, but it includes all those within both camps of people, unless there is a specific qualification that necessarily limits it. “All people” as stated, can only mean all individuals, both Jewish and Gentiles. There is nothing in the context of the passages I cited that specifies a limitation of any part of all Jews and Gentiles.

Your insertion of limitation is based on a preconceived assumption of a limitation that cannot be found in the text itself, thus you are placing it in the text.


Doug