Definite Atonement

[David1701]

A lost sheep may yet be found, a goat is a lost sheep who is eternally judged to be beyond hope of being found, of one entering eternity without believing.



Those who are believers, are such because Jesus laid down his life for them. Their sin needed atoning too, did it not?


May your shutter never stick; may your focus never wane; may you aperture be shallow so that only Christ be in focus and all else blurred into meaninglessness.


Doug

What a heap of rubbish!

1) The Bible says that lost sheep WILL BE found, not "may yet be found".

2) By definition, a sheep is not a goat.

3) My point was that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep. You claimed that the only people who are sheep are those who already believe, which would mean that Jesus only laid down his life for those who already believed, at that time.

 

[TibiasDad]

How can you go astray if you were not a sheep in the first place?

When exactly do these sheep become goats? Where does scripture specify or do you just read to much into it?

Matt 25:31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

If I am not mistaken, this is the only NT passage of scripture that refers to people as goats, and it is merely as a simile.

Note that this is at the time of the final judgment of all men. (vs 31) This is the point where the destinies of all are fixed beyond remedy.

Second, all the nations are brought before him, (vs 32) and “all the people” are separated in the same way that a shepherd would separate the sheep of his flock from the goats of his flock. The sheep are on the shepherd’s right, and the goats on his left. (vs 33).

The difference between them, according to Matthew, is how they treated Jesus, especially in how they dealt with those in need.

Nobody is termed a goat until the final judgement. People, the race known as Adam, mankind, are all the same, save for their perspective and treatment of Jesus.

We are all people, who like sheep, have gone astray. In this way we are all sheep who are lost, members of our creator-shepherd’s flock. Some will believe and some will not. This is the watershed that divides the whole into two camps. At judgement, only believers can be in his flock, and he divides mankind into believers and unbelievers, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.

Doug

 

[David1701]

Matt 25:31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

If I am not mistaken, this is the only NT passage of scripture that refers to people as goats, and it is merely as a simile.

Note that this is at the time of the final judgment of all men. (vs 31) This is the point where the destinies of all are fixed beyond remedy.

Second, all the nations are brought before him, (vs 32) and “all the people” are separated in the same way that a shepherd would separate the sheep of his flock from the goats of his flock. The sheep are on the shepherd’s right, and the goats on his left. (vs 33).

The difference between them, according to Matthew, is how they treated Jesus, especially in how they dealt with those in need.

Nobody is termed a goat until the final judgement. People, the race known as Adam, mankind, are all the same, save for their perspective and treatment of Jesus.

We are all people, who like sheep, have gone astray. In this way we are all sheep who are lost, members of our creator-shepherd’s flock. Some will believe and some will not. This is the watershed that divides the whole into two camps. At judgement, only believers can be in his flock, and he divides mankind into believers and unbelievers, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.

Doug

Total, complete, utter garbage!! You appear to be making things up to try to fit your aberrant theology, rather than getting the truth from holy Scripture.

If I am not mistaken, this is the only NT passage of scripture that refers to people as goats, and it is merely as a simile.

Yes, you are mistaken. It's not a simile, it's a metaphor.

Note that this is at the time of the final judgment of all men. (vs 31) This is the point where the destinies of all are fixed beyond remedy.

No! Our destinies were fixed before the foundation of the world!

Eph. 1:4,5,11 (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Thess. 2:13,14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom. 8:29,30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

N.B. "foreknew", when applied to people, means "chose beforehand"

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The difference between them, according to Matthew, is how they treated Jesus, especially in how they dealt with those in need.

Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, words and deeds. It is the hearts that are different; the works are demonstrations of this. By their fruit you will know them.

Nobody is termed a goat until the final judgement. People, the race known as Adam, mankind, are all the same, save for their perspective and treatment of Jesus.

More nonsense...

Jesus himself told some Pharisees that they did not believe because they were not sheep. They were not lost sheep; although they were certainly lost.

We are all people, who like sheep, have gone astray. In this way we are all sheep who are lost, members of our creator-shepherd’s flock. Some will believe and some will not. This is the watershed that divides the whole into two camps. At judgement, only believers can be in his flock, and he divides mankind into believers and unbelievers, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.

See my comment above. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are not all sheep; only some are lost sheep, others are not sheep at all.

 

[brightfame52]

I’m worried about your BP, RG! That pretzel your twisting has got to be cutting off circulation somewhere!

Now say it with me… “All have sinned and fall short… none are righteous, no not one…All we, like sheep, have gone astray.”

Can you name one descendant of Adam that has not sinned and fallen short; that is righteous; that has not gone astray?


Doug

All of Adams natural descendants are born sinners, yet not all of them are Gods elect/sheep

 

[TibiasDad]

Total, complete, utter garbage!! You appear to be making things up to try to fit your aberrant theology, rather than getting the truth from holy Scripture.


Yes, you are mistaken. It's not a simile, it's a metaphor.


No! Our destinies were fixed before the foundation of the world!

Eph. 1:4,5,11 (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Thess. 2:13,14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom. 8:29,30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

N.B. "foreknew", when applied to people, means "chose beforehand"

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, words and deeds. It is the hearts that are different; the works are demonstrations of this. By their fruit you will know them.


More nonsense...

Jesus himself told some Pharisees that they did not believe because they were not sheep. They were not lost sheep; although they were certainly lost.


See my comment above. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are not all sheep; only some are lost sheep, others are not sheep at all.

Clarify something for me, David; is aberrant theology heretical?

And by the way: Simile: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lion, crazy like a fox ).

32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Jesus said you are not of my sheep, not that you weren’t sheep at all! Jn 10:25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

I will be out of the country traveling, so I may not be able to respond in a timely manner for a week or so.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

All of Adams natural descendants are born sinners, yet not all of them are Gods elect/sheep

And again, this is the point of debate isn’t it? It is the whole reason this forum exists.

Doug

 

[David1701]

Clarify something for me, David; is aberrant theology heretical?

And by the way: Simile: a figure of speech involving the comparison of one thing with another thing of a different kind, used to make a description more emphatic or vivid (e.g., as brave as a lion, crazy like a fox ).

32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Jesus said you are not of my sheep, not that you weren’t sheep at all! Jn 10:25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

I will be out of the country traveling, so I may not be able to respond in a timely manner for a week or so.

Doug

Some aberrant theology is heretical (obviously) and some not. It depends how important it is.

A simile uses "like" or "as", or similar; examples would be: the sea was like glass, or, he had a heart like a lion.

A metaphor is a stronger figure of speech that does not use "like", "as", etc.; examples: the sea was glass, or, he had the heart of a lion.

In the Scripture you have quoted in this post, there is a simile, comparing the Lord to a shepherd ("... as a shepherd..."). There is also a metaphor: "...you are not my sheep.".

 

[TibiasDad]

Some aberrant theology is heretical (obviously) and some not. It depends how important it is.

How important is my aberration?

Doug

 

[prism]

You are not my sheep does not mean you cannot be my sheep! It is an indicative statement about a present reality. It does not say anything about potentials or final circumstances!

So Jesus is not omniscient?

 

[David1701]

How important is my aberration?

Doug

Quite important.

 

[David1701]

You are not my sheep does not mean you cannot be my sheep! It is an indicative statement about a present reality. It does not say anything about potentials or final circumstances!


Doug

Jesus said to some Pharisees that they did not believe, because they were not his sheep. This being so, how could they ever become sheep?

 

[prism]

Jesus said to some Pharisees that they did not believe, because they were not his sheep. This being so, how could they ever become sheep?

elective surgery?

 

[TibiasDad]

Quite important.

So I’m heretical?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus said to some Pharisees that they did not believe, because they were not his sheep. This being so, how could they ever become sheep?

His sheep believe him; they don’t believe him, so they are not his sheep, they are unbelieving sheep, gone astray, lost. They can become believing sheep, and many did later become believers and thus became his believing sheep. The difference between his sheep and not his sheep is believing.


Doug

 

[David1701]

His sheep believe him; they don’t believe him, so they are not his sheep, they are unbelieving sheep, gone astray, lost. They can become believing sheep, and many did later become believers and thus became his believing sheep. The difference between his sheep and not his sheep is believing.


Doug

No, you have REVERSED what the Bible says! It is not that they don't believe, so they are not his sheep; rather, it is that they are not his sheep, so they don't believe.

John 10:25,26 (KJV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You are still making things up, in order to try to shoehorn what the Bible says into your aberrant theology, but it doesn't fit!

 

[David1701]

So I’m heretical?

Doug

If you teach some of the stuff you post here, then I would have to say that you are, yes.

 

[brightfame52]

And again, this is the point of debate isn’t it? It is the whole reason this forum exists.

Doug

Not to me its no debate at this point. Its been debated

 

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

The difference between his sheep and not his sheep is believing.

Thats false

 

[Eleanor]

I think Jesus made the most concise statement of limited atonement himself in John 6:

​

(1) "I lay down my life for the sheep" (v. 15).​

​

(2) "You are not my sheep" (v. 26).​

​

In other words, there are some for whom he did not lay down his life.

And in his high priestly prayer at the last supper, stating for whom his sacrifice was offered (Jn 17:9, 2, 6, 24), he did not pray for the world, but specifically excluded it. He prayed only for those whom the Father gave him, just as all the sacrifices at the temple were offered only for God's people, and not for the world (Lev 16:34), which was specifically excluded from the temple.

 

[Arial]

The difference between his sheep and not his sheep is believing.

The difference between His sheep and not His sheep is His sheep will believe and not His sheep won't believe. John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know Me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, and one shepherd.

It is the sheep that Jesus knows and who know Him, in the same way as Jesus and the Father know one another, (present, not future) and these are the very same ones who will listen to His voice when He brings them into the one flock with one shepherd.