Definite Atonement

[TibiasDad]

Its the truth, people believe in Jesus because they were Sheep. For you not to see that tells me a lot.

Well this is exactly how this conversation has gone for the last 9 years in these various forums; I am rendered as somehow lesser than in some way, shape or form. (It’s never quite specified, but it’s always very foreboding.)

There is little more than I can do but agree to disagree agreeably and finish this conversation.

We disagree, but we are not lesser than each other because we disagree.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Well this is exactly how this conversation has gone for the last 9 years in these various forums; I am rendered as somehow lesser than in some way, shape or form. (It’s never quite specified, but it’s always very foreboding.)

There is little more than I can do but agree to disagree agreeably and finish this conversation.

We disagree, but we are not lesser than each other because we disagree.


Doug

Well I mean, its right there in the scripture, you have been shown it several times, the obvious conclusion is you dont see it.

 

[TibiasDad]

Well I mean, its right there in the scripture, you have been shown it several times, the obvious conclusion is you dont see it.

And you can’t see mine, which has a well documented historical record as well. So where does that leave us?


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

And you can’t see mine, which has a well documented historical record as well. So where does that leave us?


Doug

I mean if you cant see that the Sheep was a Sheep when lost and before repentance, you cant see Lk 15:

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

If you cant see that, you incriminate yourself friend.

 

[TibiasDad]

I mean if you cant see that the Sheep was a Sheep when lost and before repentance, you cant see Lk 15:

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

If you cant see that, you incriminate yourself friend.

All we, like sheep, have gone astray…and he seeks to save that which is lost/gone astray…and there is more joy over the one sheep who repents than all those who have already repented. Again, it is the repentance that is the difference. We are all sheep, but there is a difference between a repentant sheep and an unrepentant one.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

All we, like sheep, have gone astray…and he seeks to save that which is lost/gone astray…and there is more joy over the one sheep who repents than all those who have already repented. Again, it is the repentance that is the difference. We are all sheep, but there is a difference between a repentant sheep and an unrepentant one.

Doug

You still dont seem to see that Christs Sheep were His Sheep prior to believing. Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus says other Sheep I have, present tense, they shall hear my voice future tense, again they were His Sheep prior to them being evangelized and brought to Repentance and Faith.

All men aren't His Sheep or Jn 10:26 would be a stupid comment

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Reformedguy]

That’s the trouble with protestant proof texting.

Your theology has to line up with it all, not just the bits you like.

1 Timothy 4:10
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2
2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Does not fit with Calvinism does it?
We are catholic because of scripture, not in spite of it.

But then much of TULIP is easily dismissed.
like irresistible grace that can be resisted!

Acts 7:51
51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Grace can be resisted until God decides otherwise.

You call out Protestants for proof texting as you proof text.

 

[Reformedguy]

You’re carrying the metaphor to far. That is not the point of the context. Jesus says “you don’t believe because you are not one of my sheep.” He doesn’t say you can’t believe because you are not one of my sheep! The relationship between belief and being or not being a sheep is correlative not causative.

Belief is the mitigating factor between being or not being a sheep in Jesus’s argument, not election. It is not, in my estimation, a wise choice to assume anything about the text that is not stated in the context. I think that Brightframe has to assume Election as presented by Calvinism, to make his argument. The text itself does not preclude a non-believer (non-sheep) from becoming a believer, and thereby becoming a member of his sheep.



Doug

So was that a yes or a no? Can a sheep become a goat?

Where is it written non sheep become sheep and at what point do they become sheep???

 

[TibiasDad]

So was that a yes or a no? Can a sheep become a goat?

Where is it written non sheep become sheep and at what point do they become sheep???

Do dead become live? Do unrighteous become righteous? Do lost become found? Do the blind become sighted? Do unbelievers become believers?

Again, goats are not mentioned until the point of judgement. All are sheep gone astray. All are lost and Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. Only at judgment are lost sheep declared to be goats. Jesus never calls anyone a goat prior to judgment; Separation is a judgment event when all is said a done!


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Grace can be resisted until God decides otherwise.

You call out Protestants for proof texting as you proof text.

Grace cant be resisted, its more efficasious in its reign than sin and death because its from a far superior source Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Reformedguy]

Do dead become live? Do unrighteous become righteous? Do lost become found? Do the blind become sighted? Do unbelievers become believers?

Again, goats are not mentioned until the point of judgement. All are sheep gone astray. All are lost and Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. Only at judgment are lost sheep declared to be goats. Jesus never calls anyone a goat prior to judgment; Separation is a judgment event when all is said a done!


Doug

Irrelevant to His question.

The Bible does not say all are sheep. Sheep don't become goats at judgement day. Also something scripture does not teach.

 

[TibiasDad]

Irrelevant to His question.

The Bible does not say all are sheep. Sheep don't become goats at judgement day. Also something scripture does not teach.

It is relevant to the question because it demonstrates that our state of being changes, which by inference says that non-believing individuals are sheep gone astray, just like the one from the ninety-nine, and Jesus go to him because he is yet loss, as all of us were at one time.

But we believe and become like the ninety-nine. Believers and unbelievers are separated like, a simile, sheep and goats, because they are different types at the end based on one thing, their belief in Christ.

Isa 53:6 begs to differ with you. All we, like sheep, have gone astray. We are not his sheep because his sheep believe, know his voice as master, and follow him. Unbelieving sheep do not believe him, showing that they do not recognize his voice as authoritative, and thereby do not follow him.

If I were to take your hard literal position, then I must say that a believing sheep never follows the voice of another (Jn 10:5), but that cannot be established as true! For even believers can be led astray, if only for a short while, ask Peter, Barnabas and Thomas.


Doug

 

[Reformedguy]

It is relevant to the question because it demonstrates that our state of being changes, which by inference says that non-believing individuals are sheep gone astray, just like the one from the ninety-nine, and Jesus go to him because he is yet loss, as all of us were at one time.

But we believe and become like the ninety-nine. Believers and unbelievers are separated like, a simile, sheep and goats, because they are different types at the end based on one thing, their belief in Christ.

Isa 53:6 begs to differ with you. All we, like sheep, have gone astray. We are not his sheep because his sheep believe, know his voice as master, and follow him. Unbelieving sheep do not believe him, showing that they do not recognize his voice as authoritative, and thereby do not follow him.

If I were to take your hard literal position, then I must say that a believing sheep never follows the voice of another (Jn 10:5), but that cannot be established as true! For even believers can be led astray, if only for a short while, ask Peter, Barnabas and Thomas.


Doug

Who is the "we" in Isa. 53:6??

If they are led astray Christ will leave the 99 and retrieve them. Ring a bell?

 

[TibiasDad]

Who is the "we" in Isa. 53:6??

If they are led astray Christ will leave the 99 and retrieve them. Ring a bell?

All mankind! Every Israelite in the original context, and by extension all who might read this! There is no one person who doesn’t fit this description of having gone astray like sheep. It is a statement true of all mankind!


Doug

 

[Reformedguy]

All mankind! Every Israelite in the original context, and by extension all who might read this! There is no one person who doesn’t fit this description of having gone astray like sheep. It is a statement true of all mankind!


Doug

I disagree. Isaiah is not referring to every last person who ever lived. He is writing to Israel, God's covenant people not to the Egyptians or the Assyrians.

 

[TibiasDad]

I disagree. Isaiah is not referring to every last person who ever lived. He is writing to Israel, God's covenant people not to the Egyptians or the Assyrians.

Is there any Egyptian or Assyrian that has not gone astray like a sheep? He is writing to all Israel, including those who are not Israel, and now, by extension all mankind. All we have gone astray, or as Paul said it, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, and “There are none righteous, no not one!”

I think you are reading into this what you want, because the natural reading is all inclusive, and since you cannot demonstrate that there is one to whom “like sheep have gone astray” doesn’t apply, my interpretation is at least consistent with what is written and cannot be falsified.

Doug

 

[Reformedguy]

Is there any Egyptian or Assyrian that has not gone astray like a sheep? He is writing to all Israel, including those who are not Israel, and now, by extension all mankind. All we have gone astray, or as Paul said it, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, and “There are none righteous, no not one!”

I think you are reading into this what you want, because the natural reading is all inclusive, and since you cannot demonstrate that there is one to whom “like sheep have gone astray” doesn’t apply, my interpretation is at least consistent with what is written and cannot be falsified.

Doug

How can you go astray if you were not a sheep in the first place?

When exactly do these sheep become goats? Where does scripture specify or do you just read to much into it?

 

[TibiasDad]

How can you go astray if you were not a sheep in the first place?

When exactly do these sheep become goats? Where does scripture specify or do you just read to much into it?

I’m worried about your BP, RG! That pretzel your twisting has got to be cutting off circulation somewhere!

Now say it with me… “All have sinned and fall short… none are righteous, no not one…All we, like sheep, have gone astray.”

Can you name one descendant of Adam that has not sinned and fallen short; that is righteous; that has not gone astray?


Doug

 

[David1701]

At that is a circular argument. Those who haven’t believed are not yet and cannot be sheep.

...

1) What is the difference between a lost sheep and a goat?

2) Jesus said that he would lay down his life for the sheep. According to your view, this would mean that Jesus laid down his life for those who were already believers...

You need to change your view to agree with the Bible.

 

[TibiasDad]

1) What is the difference between a lost sheep and a goat?

A lost sheep may yet be found, a goat is a lost sheep who is eternally judged to be beyond hope of being found, of one entering eternity without believing.

2) Jesus said that he would lay down his life for the sheep. According to your view, this would mean that Jesus laid down his life for those who were already believers...

Those who are believers, are such because Jesus laid down his life for them. Their sin needed atoning too, did it not?

You need to change your view to agree with the Bible.

May your shutter never stick; may your focus never wane; may you aperture be shallow so that only Christ be in focus and all else blurred into meaninglessness.


Doug