Definite Atonement

[brightfame52]

@TibiasDad

You are not my sheep does not mean you cannot be my sheep! I

Yes it does.

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad



Yes it does.

Only if you’re in a circular argument.

At other points in the gospels and Acts, we read of many of the priests believing; is it possible that some of those priests were there that day?

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Only if you’re in a circular argument.

At other points in the gospels and Acts, we read of many of the priests believing; is it possible that some of those priests were there that day?

Doug

I dont care what kinda argument you call it, you in error, grave error, one is either born into this world a Sheep or a Goat, Wheat or Tare, Elect or Non Elect, a Vessel of Mercy or a Vessel of wrath.

 

[TibiasDad]

I dont care what kinda argument you call it, you in error, grave error, one is either born into this world a Sheep or a Goat, Wheat or Tare, Elect or Non Elect, a Vessel of Mercy or a Vessel of wrath.

One’s exit from this world is as either

a Sheep or a Goat, Wheat or Tare, Elect or Non Elect, a Vessel of Mercy or a Vessel of wrath.

But not their entrance. All are lost, and Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. All are lost, so all are capable of being saved. Jesus even says he had longed to gather us in as a hen does her chicks, but “you were not willing” to be gathered!

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

One’s exit from this world is as either

But not their entrance. All are lost, and Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. All are lost, so all are capable of being saved. Jesus even says he had longed to gather us in as a hen does her chicks, but “you were not willing” to be gathered!

Doug

Nothing changed friend.

 

[TibiasDad]

Nothing changed friend.

???

 

[brightfame52]

???

Post 23, read it, it stands

 

[TibiasDad]

Post 23, read it, it stands

As I said, then; a circular argument! Or an eisegetical argument, which is the same thing.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

As I said, then; a circular argument! Or an eisegetical argument, which is the same thing.

Doug

Dont matter what you said, nothing changes, you were and are in error for that statement.

 

[ReverendRV]

You are not my sheep does not mean you cannot be my sheep! It is an indicative statement about a present reality. It does not say anything about potentials or final circumstances!


Doug

Can a Sheep become a Goat?

 

[TibiasDad]

Can a Sheep become a Goat?

You’re carrying the metaphor to far. That is not the point of the context. Jesus says “you don’t believe because you are not one of my sheep.” He doesn’t say you can’t believe because you are not one of my sheep! The relationship between belief and being or not being a sheep is correlative not causative.

Belief is the mitigating factor between being or not being a sheep in Jesus’s argument, not election. It is not, in my estimation, a wise choice to assume anything about the text that is not stated in the context. I think that Brightframe has to assume Election as presented by Calvinism, to make his argument. The text itself does not preclude a non-believer (non-sheep) from becoming a believer, and thereby becoming a member of his sheep.



Doug

 

[ReverendRV]

You’re carrying the metaphor to far. That is not the point of the context. Jesus says “you don’t believe because you are not one of my sheep.” He doesn’t say you can’t believe because you are not one of my sheep! The relationship between belief and being or not being a sheep is correlative not causative.

Belief is the mitigating factor between being or not being a sheep in Jesus’s argument, not election. It is not, in my estimation, a wise choice to assume anything about the text that is not stated in the context. I think that Brightframe has to assume Election as presented by Calvinism, to make his argument. The text itself does not preclude a non-believer (non-sheep) from becoming a believer, and thereby becoming a member of his sheep.



Doug

It's not wise to assume anything about the Text...

But Systematic Theology doesn't do that; it compiles the truth of every Text. Jesus separates the Sheep from the Goats at the end, and the Tares are separated from the Wheat at the end too. Systematic Theology rightly states that Sheep have always been Sheep; as Wheat has always been Wheat. Figs have NEVER come from Thorns...

Shouldn't you adjust your POV, instead of holding to our changing from Goats to Sheep?

 

[David1701]

You are not my sheep does not mean you cannot be my sheep! It is an indicative statement about a present reality. It does not say anything about potentials or final circumstances!


Doug

Please demonstrate where the Bible says that you can become a sheep, without eisegesis, thanks.

 

[TibiasDad]

Please demonstrate where the Bible says that you can become a sheep, without eisegesis, thanks.

Whoever believes will be saved, (John 3:16) and they will be given the right to become children of God. (John 1:12-13) They become something they were not; they become family, they become sheep. They were enemies, now they are friends; they were once outcasts but are now beloved.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Whoever believes will be saved, (John 3:16) and they will be given the right to become children of God. (John 1:12-13) They become something they were not; they become family, they become sheep. They were enemies, now they are friends; they were once outcasts but are now beloved.


Doug

That doesnt help you, people believe in Christ because they are already Sheep.

 

[Arial]

Whoever believes will be saved, (John 3:16) and they will be given the right to become children of God. (John 1:12-13) They become something they were not; they become family, they become sheep. They were enemies, now they are friends; they were once outcasts but are now beloved.


Doug

The sheep were always the sheep. Prior to conversion they simply had not yet heard the voice of Shepherd or gathered from the wilderness and brought into the fold. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known by them." "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." "But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep as I said unto you." "My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my hand."

Jesus never calls them goats that He turns into sheep. He always calls them sheep.

 

[David1701]

Whoever believes will be saved, (John 3:16) and they will be given the right to become children of God. (John 1:12-13) They become something they were not; they become family, they become sheep. They were enemies, now they are friends; they were once outcasts but are now beloved.


Doug

This is utter drivel! The sheep are already sheep, before they're saved.

Your view would have Jesus laying down his life for those who are already saved!

John 10:11 (MKJV) I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

 

[brightfame52]

The sheep were always the sheep. Prior to conversion they simply had not yet heard the voice of Shepherd or been gathered from the wilderness and brought into the fold. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known by them." "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." "But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep as I said unto you." "My Father, who gave them to me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my hand."

Jesus never calls them goats that He turns into sheep. He always calls them sheep.

Yes and the parable of the lost sheep illustrated that Lk 15

 

[TibiasDad]

That doesnt help you, people believe in Christ because they are already Sheep.

At that is a circular argument. Those who haven’t believed are not yet and cannot be sheep.

In the Bible, believing is the separation point between believers; not believing means you are already condemned (because you haven’t believed, not because you are not elected to believe), and believing means you’re no longer condemned (like you once were—note the change from one state/being to another), you are now included.

Nothing in these passages suggests we are sheep before we believe.

Jn 1:12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Jn 3:16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Eph 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Eph 4:17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

At that is a circular argument. Those who haven’t believed are not yet and cannot be sheep.

In the Bible, believing is the separation point between believers; not believing means you are already condemned (because you haven’t believed, not because you are not elected to believe), and believing means you’re no longer condemned (like you once were—note the change from one state/being to another), you are now included.

Nothing in these passages suggests we are sheep before we believe.

Jn 1:12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Jn 3:16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Eph 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Eph 4:17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.


Doug

Its the truth, people believe in Jesus because they were Sheep. For you not to see that tells me a lot.