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Daniel 9

Why did you leave out verse 26?
I dunno. Maybe because I didn't use it to prove my point?

But if there is a reason you would like to go through it, I'm good with that.
 
I dunno. Maybe because I didn't use it to prove my point?

But if there is a reason you would like to go through it, I'm good with that.
I didn't think you would treat a verse in complete isolation, apart from its context. I'm just surprised that you handle the Bible one way with Calvinism, and another with eschatology, and they aren't the same.
 
I didn't think you would treat a verse in complete isolation, apart from its context.
Well thank you. I appreciate that. :)
But like I said,I probably didn't need it to prove my point.

But if there is something you would like to go over, please, go ahead, I'll jump in.
 
Well thank you. I appreciate that. :)
But like I said,I probably didn't need it to prove my point.

But if there is something you would like to go over, please, go ahead, I'll jump in.
I edited in a new comment you probably missed. (I forgot to put it in.) My only issue is what is basically eisegesis that is going on by treating a single verse, of a longer prophecy on its own, completely divorced from its governing context.
 
I edited in a new comment you probably missed. (I forgot to put it in.) My only issue is what is basically eisegesis that is going on by treating a single verse, of a longer prophecy on its own, completely divorced from its governing context.
Okay, which post? Number?
 
Okay, which post? Number?
The OP, #6 and #8. For my belief, I would say that it is the antichrist, and that the abomination of desolation is a dual fulfillment prophecy. Does it matter to me that much? The mark of the beast has had my attention due to a lot of slander going around from people who don't even believe in it.
 
The OP, #6 and #8.
Which are all my posts.
For my belief, I would say that it is the antichrist,
Yes, I imagine you do. Many have been calling Christ the antichrist fo years not knowing it. Just as you are.
and that the abomination of desolation is a dual fulfillment prophecy. Does it matter to me that much?
I dunno? Does it?
The mark of the beast has had my attention due to a lot of slander going around from people who don't even believe in it.
What exactly do you believe it to be?
 
Daniel 9:27
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


Question. Who is the he?
I believe he is the Assyrian whom the Lord will destroy. (Isa. 31: 8) And that person will go against Christ. (Ps. 1 - 3)
 
I believe he is the Assyrian whom the Lord will destroy. (Isa. 31: 8) And that person will go against Christ. (Ps. 1 - 3)
Okay
 
Which are all my posts.
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”"

A. A quick dissection of verse 27. We start with the subject of he. How are we to find out who he is? By using the previous verse, since because he is mentioned here, it means that who that is was defined previously. You say it is the Messiah, I say it is the prince who is to come, whose people destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

B. What did this "he" do? He confirmed a covenant with many for one week. If this is the prince of the previous verse, then this would be like a peace treaty.

C. What happened next? "BUT in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering...". A very straightforward way of saying that this "he" broke the covenant. And the last 3 1/2 years are a living hell, going by what it says above. So, you should now see why I say this is not the Messiah, but the prince who is to come.
Yes, I imagine you do. Many have been calling Christ the antichrist fo years not knowing it. Just as you are.
This would mean something if you weren't allegorizing/spiritualizing the prophecy above. This is why I said I was concerned that you isolated the verse from the context. I say I believe it is the antichrist, however, this could be another case of things happening to Israel in their history, that become future dual fulfillment prophecies. (Like for Jesus. There were quite a few dual fulfillment prophecies in the Old Testament for His first coming.)
I dunno? Does it?
To be honest, it doesn't matter that much to me. The reason is that as things keep going the way they are going, I am seeing pieces falling into place. I don't have the time to go over everything.
What exactly do you believe it to be?
To put it simply, I believe that the mark of the beast is the greatest blasphemy perpetuated upon the Holy Spirit. [The rest is explanation] Here you have the beast, his image (which just happens to be a definition of son...), and his mark. Jesus is the Son of God, and as such, He is the image of the unfathomable God, but, it also means that He is God. Hence John 1:1. I think I wrote this in another thread, but I see AI playing a huge role in all of this, especially since it is supposed to be human like, and it was made by man. Add the huge jump forward they are making in robotics, you can have a robot with an AI brain, which would make it a creation in the image of man. And then you have the mark. Everyone has to take the mark or they are killed. However, those who take the mark are forever damned without hope. Another however, scripture always pairs the taking of the mark with the worship of the beast and his image. So all three, and your ticket is stamped for hell. It does leave the question, what about those who took the mark solely to survive, but hate the beast and his image? John MacArthur would say they could be redeemed, once they hear the gospel from the 144,000. They aren't repenting and being saved from believing in the beast and his image, just for getting the mark because they wanted to survive. (Can't eat, buy, sell, etc. unless one has the mark.) Kind of like a Christian false convert. Get all the blessings by being in the church, without any of the "you have to stop sinning..."

So, basically, the beast is truly perpetuating himself as a triune god, just not spiritual but physical, and for those who worship the beast and his image, the mark is a seal of ownership, in the same way, that the Holy Spirit seals believers in Christ. You have the beast, who sent forth his "son" (the image of the beast), in the same way, the Father sent forth the Son, and both beast and image perpetuate the mark, in the same way that the Holy Spirit was sent forth by the Father and the Son. That is basically where I am at the moment. To the mark is given the nature of the Holy Spirit, in that it conveys that the one marked belongs to Satan...that is the beast and his image. The other thing is that the Bible says that we will only live on Earth. So either the world ends, economies collapse, the world is destroyed, or we have someone living on Mars in less than 10 years. (I think they were saying in 5 years, but I don't remember.) As it is to be a one-way trip, literally living there. That timeline doesn't seem feasible anymore, but they are pushing pretty hard. These short stints in space are not the same. They now have the technology to halve the amount of time it takes to get to Mars. (Whether or not it will ever reach production is just another question.)

On the worship of the beast and his image, a scholar has said that the definition conveyed in Greek is not some simple yay, I worship the beast. The connotation is that these people would choose to continue worshiping the beast and his image in the lake of fire, that is after death. The complete opposite of what God commands us to do. We are to love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, not the beast and his image. And the connotation is that this truly is WHOLE heart, mind, and strength. To see the glory of God will not phase them.
 
Daniel 9:27
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


Question. Who is the he?


The covenant maker/sacrifice ender is Christ; the one who makes desolate/desolator is ID'd as far back as 8:13, an awful person who attempts to revolt against Rome (the 4th kingdom of Dan 2).

Ironically, the desolator did end the sacrifice practice when Jerusalem ran out of food in the 1st cent. Great Revolt.
 
The covenant maker/sacrifice ender is Christ; the one who makes desolate/desolator is ID'd as far back as 8:13, an awful person who attempts to revolt against Rome (the 4th kingdom of Dan 2).

Ironically, the desolator did end the sacrifice practice when Jerusalem ran out of food in the 1st cent. Great Revolt.
That he is not Christ.

" 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the [x]Messiah will be cut off and have [y]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [z]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [aa]there will be war; desolations are decreed. 27 And he will make a [ab]firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will make sacrifice and grain offering cease; and on the wing of [ac]abominations will come one who [ad]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [ae]makes desolate.”"

And the people of the prince who is to come... And he will make... Who is the he? Using proper grammar, the he points back to the prince whose people destroy Jerusalem. He makes a firm covenant with the many for one week, and then we have the word "but". Why? Daniel is saying that the one who made the covenant will break it. Since when does Jesus break covenants? Also, the sacrifices started and ran again from 132AD-135AD during the Jewish War. So sacrifices did not cease entirely in 70AD. In fact, there were people practicing sacrificing animals up to just a few years ago. The only reason they are not considered actual sacrifices is because the temple is not standing. However, they are ready to begin the sacrificial system again if the temple were rebuilt. Reading newspaper articles about this was a real eye-opener.
 
Daniel 9:27
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


Question. Who is the he?
Jesus in His great discourse tells us its NOT HIM ! He is warning us numerous times below beware of false messiahs.

Matthew 24
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.


9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.


26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
 
Jesus in His great discourse tells us its NOT HIM ! He is warning us numerous times below beware of false messiahs.

Matthew 24
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.


9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.


26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Also note how it says "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never be equaled again." Is there anything in history that equals or goes beyond what happened in 70AD. Short answer... yes.
 
Also note how it says "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never be equaled again." Is there anything in history that equals or goes beyond what happened in 70AD. Short answer... yes.
ditto we haven't seen nothing yet.
 
ditto we haven't seen nothing yet.

The expression actually means simply that it would be so much worse than what happened in 586 BC.

We must keep in mind that all the apostles thought the end of the world would take place 'right after' the destruction of Israel. The amount of material that indicates this is almost innumerable. The fact that the world did not end is because of grace, and is the subject of 2 Pet 3, which says that.
 
That he is not Christ.

" 26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the [x]Messiah will be cut off and have [y]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [z]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [aa]there will be war; desolations are decreed. 27 And he will make a [ab]firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will make sacrifice and grain offering cease; and on the wing of [ac]abominations will come one who [ad]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [ae]makes desolate.”"

And the people of the prince who is to come... And he will make... Who is the he? Using proper grammar, the he points back to the prince whose people destroy Jerusalem. He makes a firm covenant with the many for one week, and then we have the word "but". Why? Daniel is saying that the one who made the covenant will break it. Since when does Jesus break covenants? Also, the sacrifices started and ran again from 132AD-135AD during the Jewish War. So sacrifices did not cease entirely in 70AD. In fact, there were people practicing sacrificing animals up to just a few years ago. The only reason they are not considered actual sacrifices is because the temple is not standing. However, they are ready to begin the sacrificial system again if the temple were rebuilt. Reading newspaper articles about this was a real eye-opener.

Rome made no covenant. The grammatical difficulty of the passage is that the antecedent that switches at v27b to the evil figure of 8:13+. I have spent about 40 years looking into things here. Here is a well-navigated translation that keeps Messiah, Rome and the evil person distinct as intended:

v24 In 490 years from the return, Messiah will make atonement and bring in righteousness, the righteousness of God, Romans 1:16, 3:21.

v25 The rebuilt temple will include a plaza and will be a defensive structure (it was both).

v26 After 483 years, Messiah will be cut off, but that will not be for himself. Rome (the last of the 4 powers of Dan 2) will come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. The destruction will be like a quick flood. There will be a decreed war until the end.

v27 Messiah will confirm the covenant of Israel--show that what he just accomplished was promised to Abraham from the beginning. This was done through his teaching on both sides of his death (40 days of intense instruction after his death & Res before Pentecost).

V27b Meanwhile the evil person of 8:13 will come doing a new kind of abomination ('on the wings'), but the decree against him will hold (I Thess 'you know what restrains him' comforted the readers) and will destroy him.

Josephus commented on this in his history of the Jewish War (66-73AD); he was a trained priest and this was the accepted understanding of Dan 9 in yeshiva. So the set of questions that start Mt 24 etc are on this topic: IOW, when does the 'end' of Dan 9 happen?

There is much more in my THE COVENANT REVOLT at Amazon. My master's thesis work was on the relation between Luke-Acts and the revolt. Luke is the last of the parallel gospels and says the most on the topic.

The important overall thrust of Dan 9 is that Israel is ruined, but Messiah's accomplishment stands and is eternal. Not quite the answer Daniel was seeking.
 
Jesus in His great discourse tells us its NOT HIM ! He is warning us numerous times below beware of false messiahs.

Matthew 24
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.


9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.


26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
I see no where Jesus telling us it’s not him. Sorry 😉
 
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