Covenant of Works

[Josheb]

You misunderstand me because you don't know what I know. I am not jealous. I am not part of the Constantinian church that has moved away from its Hebrew roots and nullified the things of God regarding salvation and other particulars revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures from Matthew to Revelation.

Condescension

 

[Arial]

I am not part of the Constantinian church that has moved away from its Hebrew roots and nullified the things of God regarding salvation and other particulars revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures from Matthew to Revelation.

The Constantinian church was the Catholic church. Christianity has its roots in Christ. It does not nullify anything of God regarding salvation. "Other particulars" is way to open ended and subjective to even respond to. None of the scriptures are Hebrew scriptures. They were written by men, some of whom carried dna from non Hebrews, not to mention that everyone is a descendant of Adam and Eve who were not Hebrew.

Hebrew was first mentioned in Gen 14:13. Hebrew means descendant of Eber. Eber was the son of Seth. The line of Seth is the Seed bearing line of Messiah. These are the same people that became known as Israelites through Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, and fathered the 12 tribes. Though the meaning of "Israel" is speculated, it likely means He Retains God and to clarify that through elaboration, He has become a receptacle in which God Can be Received and retained.

In your rants against Christianity and your exaltation of ethnic/geographic Israel you miss entirely all spiritual aspects of what God is doing. And I do not mean spiritualizing of the Bible, but the things that are but cannot be seen. Just like those unbelieving Jews in the NT. They are not Hebrew scriptures, they are about the progression of the coming of the Redeemer, in the Hebrews as the Seed bearer---and the Seed bearer being only one man in one tribe, in one family in each and every generation.

Such as the false theology that Gentiles by becoming born-again are now in the Hebrew Covenants. They are not.
The false theology that Gentiles have replaced Israel in the economy of God's salvation.

Straw man. Christianity does not teach that we are in the Mosaic covenant of Law, which I can only assume is the one you mean. All believers of all nations are in that portion of the Abrahamic covenant that pertains to all nations being blessed through Abraham's Seed. Who is Jesus. You are still stuck back there in the land which of course the book of Hebrews tells us is not the true rest. Neither does Christianity teach that the Gentiles have replaced Israel in salvation in God's economy. It teaches that all believers of all nations are of Abraham in the covenant of redemption through faith in Christ. Just as Paul himself teaches us. You are still crying with the Pharisees, "May it never be!"

 

[ReverendRV]

I find no covenant of works in Scripture.
There is the Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New Covenants mentioned in Scripture (and a couple of other personal covenants among God's people) but no covenant of works. That is a Constantinian Gentile church fabrication.

The Covenant of Works is a Term of Covenant Theology; not a Verbatim Verse of Scripture...

 

[Arial]

The arrogant declarations that Israel is no longer God's Chosen people, and that distinction now falls of Gentiles. Another lie.
The fact that Gentiles have stolen Israel's covenants, prophecies, and promises as well as their inheritance with God and made them their own. Another lie.

More straw men.

Christianity does not teach that Israel is no longer God's chosen people. The were chosen as a nation for God to be their God in a covenant way, as opposed to not having a covenant relationship in the same way with any other nations, and for a specific purpose. It was primarily about possessing the land and having God as their protector until the time when Christ would come. Christianity teaches that there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile in the new covenant. Both are saved in the same way. In Christ through faith. Israel came to stand for God's covenant people. In the New Covenant, which made that one obsolete as it wasn't needed anymore (take it up with God, it is what His word says) God has people from all nations and all walks of life. In a covenant relationship. It is the fulfillment of that other part the covenant God made with Abraham, that you so insistently ignore----faith counted as righteousness.

The Gentiles stole nothing. Nor does Christianity make any claims to any promises or prophecies or covenants that were specifically in reference to geographic Israel. They lay claims to how God treats His covenant people. They do not say they own the covenants or prophecies or promises. And news flash, Israel did not own any of those things either. The covenants, prophecies, and promises are owned by God and God alone.

The fact that Gentiles have historically separated themselves from a salvation founded upon Israel and have created their own religion and they don't even know it because of the false beliefs of all the above contributing to that lying conclusion that Gentiles are the be all and a bag of chips in things having to do with salvation.

Another straw man. Non Jewish Christians no exactly where their salvation comes from. It comes from God through Jesus Christ. It never was founded on Israel. The Mosaic covenant was not founded on Israel. No covenant of God was ever founded on Israel or any other nation or people. It was founded upon God Himself, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. By Him and for Him. You would be hard pressed to find any non-Jewish Christian who believes as you say. They know of Israel, the Law, the Prophets, the "writings." They know Jesus was a Jew born in Israel and born under the Law. They deny none of it. The twisting and contortions are in your mind, not ours.

I am not jealous. I am disgusted. And I know judgment is coming upon the Gentile church and there's nothing to stop it.

Clarify Gentile church, since there is no such things in actuality. But as to judgement coming you too will face it. Take sober consideration of 1 Cor 3.


10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled[b] master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

There has indeed been much building upon the foundation with wood, hay, and straw. But those who are truly in Christ through faith there is now no condemnation. It is building on another foundation and calling it Jesus Christ that brings judgment that leads to wrath and condemnation.

Are you sure? isn't the false theology of the Constantinian Gentile church believe they are now "spiritual Israel?" So why do you believe Gentiles are "spiritual Israel" instead of natural Israel BECOMING spiritual Israel through the Holy Spirit dwelling within them? Which is it?

What has that to do with your confessing you are not a Jew?

Maybe I'm a Samaritan. Or a Half-Jew. Or 1/24th Jew? Or 1/128th Jew? Maybe I'm a mutt with Hebrew blood in my ancestral history? And if so and God keeps covenant with the Hebrews and I am born again, maybe that's the basis of my new birth? God did scatter the Jewish people at least three times in their history. Maybe every German, Irish, Japanese, Chinese, Indian, Scot, Brit, Italian, Romanian, Mexican, Spanish, etc., who considers themselves Gentile and is born again has Hebrew blood in their family somewhere in their ancestral history but just don't know it? God keeps His promises, and the covenant of salvation IS with the Hebrew people, the seed of Abraham.

Moving the goal post, deflection, irrelevant. Poorly presented and poorly thought out.

No one has considered this question because in their minds they all believe they won't be here because of the false theology of a rapture taking them all away. I find this an incredibly sad commentary on their false expectations of a rapture that will never happen, and when the institution finds there is no rapture what their response will be against Israel. No doubt they will be aligned with the nations God brings against Israel at Armageddon and even see evidence of that betrayal today.

You have got to quit generalizing and categorizing! There are many, many Christians, me among them, who do not believe in the so called pre tribulation rapture, or a seven year tribulation in which all of Rev happens, in shor, do not have a dispensationalist view of eschatology or of the OT (which you do have in your own private religion. Not the rapture evidently but of the OT and a future earthly reign of Israel in Israel. Jews only, while those pesky, dirty Gentiles wait for a thousand years to receive their inheritance. And more "Gentile" Christians believe that than any other eschatological view. So you are in good company there.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Constantinian church was the Catholic church. Christianity has its roots in Christ.

The Constantinian church was not Catholic Church as Catholicism did not exactly come into being until around 599 S.D. with Gregory I. Before that the Constantinian church was on its way to becoming a religion (Catholic) severed from its Hebrew roots. After a millennium, the Reformation was founded upon the shoulders of Martin Luther, who unwittingly (or unwittingly) was used of God to attempt restoration but there was no way he or other Gentiles were going to take the Gentile church back to its Hebrew roots either.
And once the Constantinian or Catholic church remained severed from a salvation of the Jews they remained a religion separated unto themselves and detached from Biblical Christianity. Neither follows Christ for to follow Christ is to do and say what Christ did and said and Christ did not destroy the Law or the religion of the Hebrew people of that Law. So, if the Law is not destroyed, then why the separation from the religion of Christ to become a beast of great unfamiliar porportions?

It does not nullify anything of God regarding salvation. "Other particulars" is way to open ended and subjective to even respond to. None of the scriptures are Hebrew scriptures. They were written by men, some of whom carried dna from non Hebrews, not to mention that everyone is a descendant of Adam and Eve who were not Hebrew.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Saul, Peter, James, John, etc., were all Jewish men who wrote to Jews and Jewish Christians and the subject matter is the New Covenant and what it all meant considering the arrival of both their Messiah and the Holy Spirit of Promise. Peter's sermon in Acts is addressed to the Jews that were attending the Jewish Feast of Harvest in Jerusalem. 3000 Jews were born again, and the Jewish Church of Christ was born. Attendants of this Feast came from all over the Roman Empire and beyond in obedience to God and when they returned to their homes and synagogues they took with them an outline of Peter's sermon, their newfound Messiah, and their Holy Spirit of Promise. I'm sure during their travels back home they shared the good news of Israel's Messiah's arrival (and resurrection and departure) with Jews they met on the roads and various cities on their route. When they arrived home, they shared their experiences with their Jewish brethren, proselytes in attendance in the synagogues and God-Fearers. In time many more Jews were born-again of the Spirit and the Jewish Church of Christ was in full swing. This dissemination of these events taking place among the Jewish people through word-of-mouth (witness) multiplied and still many more Jews were born again with proselytes and God-Fearers thrown in as the beginning of the gospel message going to Gentiles. But overall, since the New Covenant was a possession of the House of Israel salvation went to the House of Israel until the destruction of the Jewish Temple and the Jews began to maintain their newfound faith in God and His Christ centered around their Feasts and other Holy Days. But the destroyed Temple in the plan of God meant the ascendancy of Gentiles being saved in higher numbers and as the good news went west Gentiles with their Gentile worldview could only interpret these things with a Gentile mindset void of any Hebrew input and a new religion was formed, not one which was originally founded on the Jewish Covenants but one formed without it Hebrew roots. This is all recorded history.

Hebrew was first mentioned in Gen 14:13. Hebrew means descendant of Eber. Eber was the son of Seth. The line of Seth is the Seed bearing line of Messiah. These are the same people that became known as Israelites through Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, and fathered the 12 tribes. Though the meaning of "Israel" is speculated, it likely means He Retains God and to clarify that through elaboration, He has become a receptacle in which God Can be Received and retained.

I agree. I prefer "he who struggles/prevails with Jehovah/Yahveh" as the recorded meaning in Scripture when given to Jacob (Israel.)

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Gen. 32:28.

He became the "receptable" of the covenant of his grandfather Abraham.

In your rants against Christianity and your exaltation of ethnic/geographic Israel you miss entirely all spiritual aspects of what God is doing.

First, God does not "rant."
Second, God has "exalted" His Chosen people above all peoples of the earth.
Third, God is very ethnic.
Fourth, God is very ethnic in which through Abraham a Hebrew people was founded and a non-Hebrew people was the residue and NOT in covenant with God. The covenant established a new ethnic people on earth and as a result, by default, an old people remained separated from God, the so-called "daughters of MEN" as opposed to "sons of GOD."
No, my spiritual "sight" is exceptionally good. I see what God wants me to see and know what God wants me to know in accordance with His plan for my life and my call in Him.

And I do not mean spiritualizing of the Bible, but the things that are but cannot be seen. Just like those unbelieving Jews in the NT. They are not Hebrew scriptures, they are about the progression of the coming of the Redeemer, in the Hebrews as the Seed bearer---and the Seed bearer being only one man in one tribe, in one family in each and every generation.

Written by Jewish Christians to and for other Jewish Christians trying to make sense of this New Covenant God made with the House of Israel.

Straw man.

Saul did "strawman" in his letters.

Christianity does not teach that we are in the Mosaic covenant of Law, which I can only assume is the one you mean.

Biblical Christianity which is Jewish Christianity doesn't teach Gentiles are in any of the Hebrew Covenants. But just the same, it will be the Mosaic Law of God by which Gentiles outside the Law will be judged. God doesn't save Gentiles so they can create their own religion separate from its Hebrew roots, but in order to judge the nations and the Gentile Christians that live in those nations God has given them over to a lie and great delusion. But they don't think they're practicing lies or deluded. Typical of blind men leading the blind. And it is men that's doing the leading straight into a judgment-ditch. Maybe a pit. Bottomless? Hmmm....

All believers of all nations are in that portion of the Abrahamic covenant that pertains to all nations being blessed through Abraham's Seed.

Those that were in Abraham's household that were not of his seed (he was childless) were non-Abrahamic and can also be considered "Gentile" (non-Abraham) but still commanded to be circumcised. Proselytes. Strangers. Sojourners. Servants. THESE were the ones that enjoyed the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant not being in the Abrahamic Covenant. This reality remains the model to this day. God made no covenant with Gentiles and yet Gentiles outside covenant will be judged by covenant when the covenant books are opened before the Judgment Throne of God.
But in the Hebrew Scriptures there is no passage in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets of God making covenant with Gentiles and the futile attempts at Gentile Christians of trying to be in covenant without obeying covenant precepts is a failure for if God did want non-Hebrews in Covenant He would have said so when the covenants with the Hebrews was made but He didn't and they are not.

Who is Jesus.

The Christ/Messiah, the Son of the Living God and Israel's Redeemer, King, and Savior.

You are still stuck back there in the land which of course the book of Hebrews tells us is not the true rest.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. Jesus is that rest in the Holy Spirit.

Neither does Christianity teach that the Gentiles have replaced Israel in salvation in God's economy.

Yes. It's called Replacement Theology. Google it.

It teaches that all believers of all nations are of Abraham in the covenant of redemption through faith in Christ.

If it's not Replacement Theology, then it's Inclusion Theology. God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles. NONE. So, why do you and others like you try to include Gentiles into the Hebrew Covenants after the fact and after the Covenants are closed. That's called "adding to the bible" and there a punishment assigned to those that do that.
Show me where in the Hebrew Scriptures where God made covenant with Gentiles (non-Abrahamic, non-seed.)

Just as Paul himself teaches us. You are still crying with the Pharisees, "May it never be!"

That is a rabbinic literary device in their Halakah. Saul does that in his letters. He may begin with the premise ("What shall we say then" Rom. 9:30), and then he answers his own surmising's ("God forbid!" Rom. 11:1, 11), and then hopes to come to the correct conclusion (Rom. 11:30-32), and then when he thinks he's arrived at the correct conclusion he argued within himself he praises God (Rom. 11:33-36.)
I don't think you've correctly understood that Saul maintained his Jewishness and continued to obey the Law.
He was a Hebrew of Hebrews and a Pharisee of Pharisees and was "proud" of his heritage.

 

[Arial]

The Constantinian church was not Catholic Church as Catholicism did not exactly come into being until around 599 S.D. with Gregory I. Before that the Constantinian church was on its way to becoming a religion (Catholic) severed from its Hebrew roots. After a millennium, the Reformation was founded upon the shoulders of Martin Luther, who unwittingly (or unwittingly) was used of God to attempt restoration but there was no way he or other Gentiles were going to take the Gentile church back to its Hebrew roots either.

You have not established that Christianity ever had Hebrew roots. It has roots in the Abrahamic Covenant of faith counted as righteousness that would bless all nations. The very same one that is known as the New Covenant as it follows the fulfillment of the Old covenant with the nation Israel, making that covenant obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13; Matt 5:17, which was said when the Law was still in effect, before He had fulfilled it, went to the cross, died, was resurrected, returned to heaven crowned King and High Priest.) The Protestantism that came from the Reformation never denied the incarnated Christ as being of Israel, or that salvation comes through Israel.

And the root of salvation in Christianity is even before Abraham, (first called a Hebrew, from Eber, son of Seth, son of Adam) long before there was a Hebrew or an Israel, in the Garden of Eden. "He will bruise your heel and you (seed of woman) will crush his head." The root of Christianity is the Seed, and the Seed is Christ.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Saul, Peter, James, John, etc., were all Jewish men who wrote to Jews and Jewish Christians and the subject matter is the New Covenant and what it all meant considering the arrival of both their Messiah and the Holy Spirit of Promise.

They were Jews, but they wrote to churches, not Jews. In those churches were both Jewish and Gentile believers, and history verifies that, you have been shown it from history, and the fact that you refuse to accept that shows intentional deception. Which makes everything you say with only your word for it and no actual evidence, unreliable.

The Christ/Messiah, the Son of the Living God and Israel's Redeemer, King, and Savior.

Was there a question mark after my statement? I was not asking who Jesus is. I know who He is. I was saying the Seed of Abraham is Jesus.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrews. Jesus is that rest in the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews may well have been written of a largely Hebrew audience, and it is explaining the purposes and shadowing of the Law and it fulfillment in Christ---and why it was temporary and is no longer in effect. But it is written for everyone.

Yes. It's called Replacement Theology. Google it.

There is such a thing as Replacement Theology, but it is not what Christianity teaches. Make distinctions where there are distinctions. It only still exists in pockets and random individuals.

If it's not Replacement Theology, then it's Inclusion Theology. God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles. NONE. So, why do you and others like you try to include Gentiles into the Hebrew Covenants after the fact and after the Covenants are closed. That's called "adding to the bible" and there a punishment assigned to those that do that

Pay attention to what a covenant is: It is not the means of salvation, it is a relationship. A relationship. A relationship. A relationship. All believers are in a covenant relationship with the Most High God, through faith in Christ and by grace. There is no more covenant relationship with Israel in accordance with Mosaic Covenant LAW. There is no covenant relationship with God for anyone, based on Law. There is a covenant relationship with individuals, not nations or nation, but from all nations and walks of life, with those in Christ through faith. And this is all of God and all of His grace. The way in which God relates to His covenant people, whether as in the old covenant or in the new covenant, remains the same, because God remains the same. He is Father to them. Provider, Protector. Helper. Strength, Peace. Comfort. Teacher.Their Rock and their High Tower. Keeper. In God we trust.

That is a rabbinic literary device in their Halakah. Saul does that in his letters. He may begin with the premise ("What shall we say then" Rom. 9:30), and then he answers his own surmising's ("God forbid!" Rom. 11:1, 11), and then hopes to come to the correct conclusion (Rom. 11:30-32), and then when he thinks he's arrived at the correct conclusion he argued within himself he praises God (Rom. 11:33-36.)
I don't think you've correctly understood that Saul maintained his Jewishness and continued to obey the Law.
He was a Hebrew of Hebrews and a Pharisee of Pharisees and was "proud" of his heritage.

Well, that is one way to slip right past what I said.

 

[Arial]

First, God does not "rant."

Interesting that this is your response when I said "your rant." Hmmmm.

Second, God has "exalted" His Chosen people above all peoples of the earth.

God doesn't exalt people. And He did not choose all Jews unto salvation and He did not choose only Jews.

Third, God is very ethnic.

He is a racist?

Fourth, God is very ethnic in which through Abraham a Hebrew people was founded and a non-Hebrew people was the residue and NOT in covenant with God. The covenant established a new ethnic people on earth and as a result, by default, an old people remained separated from God, the so-called "daughters of MEN" as opposed to "sons of GOD."

That makes not one iota of sense.

No, my spiritual "sight" is exceptionally good. I see what God wants me to see and know what God wants me to know in accordance with His plan for my life and my call in Him.

Did I say anything about your spiritual sight? I said you miss the spiritual aspects of the Law just as the Pharisees did. You cannot see the big picture of the progression of redemption. You are stuck in the shadows and the land. Many a person has claimed just as you do, and from it we have Islam, JW, Mormon, Christian Science, Unitarianism., etc. etc.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Interesting that this is your response when I said "your rant." Hmmmm.

What? You don't believe God has His people speaking for Him?
The Old Testament called these individuals "prophets."
Nothing's changed.

God doesn't exalt people. And He did not choose all Jews unto salvation and He did not choose only Jews.

God has no covenant with Gentiles. He is saving Gentiles without a covenant. In other words, Gentiles don't have anything coming from God. It is purely by His grace that Gentiles are saved.
Israel on the other hand does have covenant with God. They can claim certain expectations from God in these covenants, such as land, protection, education, redemption, salvation, and marital bliss with God.
Israel is the Church of God.
Israel is betrothed to God.
At the Marriage Supper Israel is there through covenant. Gentiles are there by invitation (Matt. 22.)
Do you know that the Times of the Gentiles will end with the destruction of the Gentile nations? Last I checked millions of Gentile Christians live in these Gentile nations slated for destruction by God.
Do you also know that Zechariah prophesied God will bring ALL Gentile nations against Israel and this included Gentile Christians against Israel.
There is no rapture. Gentile Christians will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble with Israel and their judgments will be for different purposes and each will suffer for distinct reasons.
Do you know that when God does come there will be astronomic changes occurring in the sky? The sun will not give her light and be black, the moon ditto. The heavens will shake as will the earth at the coming of the LORD.
Did you know that when one-half of Israel remains the LORD will come and engage Gentiles directly in battle and in the end, He will sit on David's throne with Israel finally occupying their Promised Land? When this happens God will cleanse the land of Israel from all Gentile presence and they will dwell outside the Promised Land of Israel? Do you know that when Satan is loosed from prison, he will go to these Gentile lands occupied by Gentile Christians to deceive them and as they are described as Gog and Magog this people will come upon the breadth of Israel but fire from heaven consumes them all and who's left?
Israel of twelve tribes.
Does this sound familiar?
I consider myself Gentile and I see what the Scripture says, and I just might be living outside of Israel and be part of the destruction against Gentiles, or, I just might have Hebrew blood in my ancestral family line and through covenant live among my people in the Promised Land and witness God's destruction of Gentiles in the future. God scattered His people in a major way at least three times so the Hebrew DNA is everywhere, and just as half-Jew, half-Gentile Samaritans are still part of the Hebrew Covenants they are the "other flock" Jesus said He was going to bring with Him and be One Shepherd to this people regardless of what prejudices Jews may have against them. Just as Christ spoke in the gospels towards the ten tribes of the northern kingdom and two tribes of the southern kingdom He will speak to the DNA mixture of His people, Jew and Samaritan, and join them together? It's quite possible that those who THINK they are Gentile and are born-again cannot dismiss the possibility that they just might have Hebrew DNA in them and as per covenant save them to the uttermost and bring us into our own land? If you are born-again, it just might be that you and I have Hebrew DNA in our veins and you and I are not really Gentile at all even though we live as Gentile in ignorance and in Gentile lands? I may not know my DNA tribe may be, but I certainly know what my spiritual tribe is. Do you know yours?

He is a racist?

From Adam to Abraham the people of earth were known as Adamites. On one side of this people are a people who "call upon the LORD" (in some relationship with God) also called the "sons of God" and Eber's father "crossed over" the Jordan to separate themselves from a people that would end up following the first Antichrist named Nimrod, a people also called the "daughters of men" and that all the earth knew were Adamites until the calling of Abraham. Before Abraham this people cannot be called "human race" or "Gentile" because Gentiles were not established until a set-apart man and a people from his loins would be an ethnic choice of God and one only He can make in judgment and righteousness, a people called Hebrew. Through Abraham the Hebrew people were established as an ethnic people and besides covenant the thing that separated Hebrews from Gentiles was circumcision? One might think we are descendants of Adam but in reality, we are descendants of Noah and his sons. It was Noah who found grace in the eyes of God and no one else. Not his sons, not his wife. And from Noah even though united the people were divided, this son of Noah named Shem separated for God and to God, on the other the followers of Nimrod, a mighty hunter. And what did he hunt? Adamites. It was through Abraham that the Hebrew officially became a race or people, and by default those not in covenant nor circumcised God called Gentile. With the advent of Moses and after their deliverance from Egyptian bondage these ethnic Hebrews amounted to about 4 million people in the desert at the time of the I'm not God's counsellor. I can't say, "What are you doing?" Tabernacle and with the giving of God's Law to the children of Israel, they became an ethnic nation of Hebrews. Balaam stood on the mountaintop and looked down into the Jordan valley and he saw wall-to-wall Jews/Hebrews down below he even commented on it in Numbers? Your Gentile mindset needs to be liberated from Gentile heresy of reaching unreasonable conclusions about the Hebrew people and their way of life before their God from the Hebrew Scriptures, a mindset that can only see the Hebrew Scriptures as they say, "from the outside looking in" but not as a Hebrew/Jew would. You might be "white" or more specifically, German, or Irish or Mexican. If so, can you truly relate what it's like to be a black man, to appreciate what It's like as a black man to live as a black man? You can't do it. Could you survive in one of their ghettos if you were a white man? Or Mexican? Not possible. So, what makes you think that as a Gentile you can fully appreciate what it's like to be Hebrew/Jewish, and then try to understand their Hebrew Scriptures from a Hebrew/Jewish perspective? It can't be done. The closest a Gentile can get to appreciate what it's like Hebrew/Jewish would be a circumcised Gentile and these are called "proselyte." If I am not Hebrew through DNA I certainly am proselyte.

That makes not one iota of sense.

It does to me.

Did I say anything about your spiritual sight? I said you miss the spiritual aspects of the Law just as the Pharisees did. You cannot see the big picture of the progression of redemption. You are stuck in the shadows and the land. Many a person has claimed just as you do, and from it we have Islam, JW, Mormon, Christian Science, Unitarianism., etc. etc.

I am neither of those, and by mentioning "spiritual" aspects one would have to have spiritual sight to see those aspects. I don't know about "other people." I am what I am and what I am is a Biblical Christian.
Proselyte.

 

[Arial]

What? You don't believe God has His people speaking for Him?
The Old Testament called these individuals "prophets."
Nothing's changed.

I guess if one wants to call themselves a Prophet of the Most High God, they would have to believe that nothing has changed. But it is a very dangerous thing to be a false prophet, and a false prophet is known when he makes statements, attributing them to God and as being His mouth piece, that are not true. Which applies to 99% of what you say below. and every bit of it distorts the Bible message of salvation and covenant.

I believe you sincerely believe that everything you write is God speaking through you. But it is not. Much is in direct contradiction to the clear text of the Bible, some of it is just misguided interpretations of scripture, especially prophecy. Some of it is nothing but imagination, some is a downright abomination to Christ, but all of it is leaning on your own understanding.

I could go through line by line and show each and every statement that follows this one quote, with scriptures, properly exegeted and expounded on using the whole counsel of God, and show the proof of what I have just said. But it would be exhaustive and exhausting, and an utter waste of my time to offer it to you. Locked minds cannot be penetrated. So I am leaving the discussion.

 

[Arial]

I don't call myself a "prophet." God did and He does. And to be completely honest with you I was a Jonah. I didn't want to do what God commanded me and took a vacation, but not by boat (I can't swim), but by bus. And a plane. And a train. Believe me, you wouldn't want my calling. No one would. Saul and I have the same calling with variation. But that's my business and I'll leave it at that.

Wow! I think they have treatments for that condition.

I have my Baruch

I did have a Baruch, That was his name. Baruch Avigdor (Avi) for short. A Rottweiler, son of Israel v Tanker and Sarah of Canaan. There was a Masha, Davida, and an Isaac, and now a Boaz (Dutch Shepherd) Now imply again I hate Israel and the Jews. That I am stealing from them, and taking what you say isn't mine. A covenant relationship with God through faith in Jesus. A covenant is a relationship. I don't know what you think a covenant is, but you show a complete lack of understanding of covenant. Or of God who makes them, and makes them with whomever He pleases. Prophet my foot. And enough with the . As though no one has suffered and been persecuted as you have.

Our trust in God comes from the covenant relationship. If Gentiles have no covenant with God, they are blowing in the wind. The OT scriptures mean nothing to us, and the promises of never being forsaken, provided for etc. that we see particularly in the Psalms that are comfort and strength have no application to us---so how are we to place our trust in Him. But from your perspective, you have nothing to base trust on either.

 

[Josheb]

I don't call myself a "prophet." God did and He does.

???

God calls you a prophet?

 

[Josheb]

I don't call myself a "prophet." God did and He does. And to be completely honest with you I was a Jonah. I didn't want to do what God commanded me and took a vacation, but not by boat (I can't swim), but by bus. And a plane. And a train. Believe me, you wouldn't want my calling. No one would. Saul and I have the same calling with variation. But that's my business and I'll leave it at that.

Nothing has changed. True, Biblical Christianity is Hebrew-originated and is defined by these words: Completed Judaism................

Using the premise just asserted..... I think you're still stuck in the belly of a great fish.

When you come into the forum do you think of yourself as speaking on behalf of God? Do you expect us to consider you speaking prophetically on behalf of God?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wow! I think they have treatments for that condition.

I did have a Baruch, That was his name. Baruch Avigdor (Avi) for short. A Rottweiler, son of Israel v Tanker and Sarah of Canaan. There was a Masha, Davida, and an Isaac, and now a Boaz (Dutch Shepherd) Now imply again I hate Israel and the Jews. That I am stealing from them, and taking what you say isn't mine. A covenant relationship with God through faith in Jesus. A covenant is a relationship. I don't know what you think a covenant is, but you show a complete lack of understanding of covenant. Or of God who makes them, and makes them with whomever He pleases. Prophet my foot. And enough with the . As though no one has suffered and been persecuted as you have.

Our trust in God comes from the covenant relationship. If Gentiles have no covenant with God, they are blowing in the wind. The OT scriptures mean nothing to us, and the promises of never being forsaken, provided for etc. that we see particularly in the Psalms that are comfort and strength have no application to us---so how are we to place our trust in Him. But from your perspective, you have nothing to base trust on either.

Yes, that's correct, God made no covenant with Gentiles and they are blowing in the wind and should be grateful God chose to visit with Gentile and save some.
You see, you are assuming the Hebrew Covenants include Gentiles and they don't.
Abrahamic Covenant is with Abraham and his seed. Gentiles do not come from his seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is with the children of Israel in the desert.
The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

None of these covenants include Gentiles.

The Hebrew Scriptures - including the Psalms - were written by Hebrews TO and FOR the Hebrew peoples 'consumption.' They were used to worship and praise the God of Israel.
And as you are a Reformer you should know we don't and can't place our trust in "Him." We are in bondage to sin as Martin Luther said. And thank God for that because we in our sinful, unatoned state do not have faith or trust towards God. We are DEAD in trespasses and sin, separated from the commonwealth of Israel.
As a Reformer you should know we are not saved by our faith but by the Perfect Faith of the Son of God. It was His Faith God the Father honored and through which anyone in the book of life is saved.

We don't choose Him, He chooses us, and I for one and grateful and thankful because no one seeks God, everyone loves darkness and hates the light (Christ), neither come to the light in order to be saved.
Predestination. Election. Calling. These are all doctrines of the Reformed denomination. You don't believe these things no more? You believe the D.A.I.S.Y of the Remonstrants?

 

[Ghada]

Conclusion #1: Preconditions and Probation

“Adam had to, over a probationary period of time,

I don't read anything about 'probationary'.

perform “works” of righteousness by meeting the conditions of personal, perfect and perpetual obedience before God would allow Adam to eat from the tree of life.”

True. It's the same today and called a whole pure heart toward God and keeping His commandments blameless.

Sub Points:

1. Adam was given an undisclosed period of time (called “probation”)

If not written, then this is just an assumption.

2. Only after the successful demonstration of these works of “personal, perfect, and perpetual obedience” during the time of his “probation,” would Adam have proven his perfect righteousness, earned eternal life, and be allowed to eat to the tree of life and thereby live forever.

Adam proves his righteousness with the Lord from the day he began obeying the Lord and kept the garden, without eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Adam was free to eat of every tree of the garden from the beginning, which included the tree of life in the midst of the garden.

By disobedience, he was driven from the garden, and stopped from eating of the tree of life.

 

[Ghada]

Using the premise just asserted..... I think you're still stuck in the belly of a great fish.

That would be defaming Jonas.

When you come into the forum do you think of yourself as speaking on behalf of God? Do you expect us to consider you speaking prophetically on behalf of God?

Just a note. I have found that people with cultish manners about themselves and others like them, normally intrude their special cult doctrine into every kind of Bible topic at hand.

This is such a case with the prophet of a Jews-only covenant.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[Josheb]

That would be defaming Jonas.

That's funny, but be nice .

Just a note. I have found that people with cultish manners about themselves and others like them, normally intrude their special cult doctrine into every kind of Bible topic at hand.

This is such a case with the prophet of a Jews-only covenant.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Be careful because, given some of the things I've read from you I'm inclined to read that as self-referential .

Now.....


Back to our regularly schedule thread .

 

[Arial]

God made no covenant with Gentiles and they are blowing in the wind and should be grateful God chose to visit with Gentile and save some.

5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,


“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessd did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,


“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
(Romans 9)

You are stumbling over the same stumbling stone when it comes to covenant. "My people" indicates a personal relationship to God, and a personal relationship with God is a covenant. It contains obligations and promises, and in the case of the New Covenant, all the obligations and promises are the responsibility of God with none placed on the people as is the case in the Old Covenant with Israel. The first bilateral. The second unilateral. That is why we have a Bible that contains two covenants in its very distinctions between two covenants. No one was saved unto eternal life in the Old. Only those who had faith yet still sometimes sinned. That remains the same, but faith post incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, of Christ (true Israel because He is faithful Israel)is through faith in His person and work and does give eternal life. The new covenant is established by God, just as the old was. But in the new God makes promises just as He did in the old. Those promises can be found in the epistles so I will not reiterate them all. But they are what give us hope that is certain in all that He promises. Included in that, because He is God and does not change, are the ways in which He treats and relates to His covenant people, which we see in the things that David in particular speaks to Him and about Him. He treats His adopted children (and even the Hebrews in Rom 9 were referred to as adopted) both Jew and Gentile like what they are. His little children and He is their Father. Covenant security and safety and trust. For God always keeps His promises.

 

[Arial]

You see, you are assuming the Hebrew Covenants include Gentiles and they don't.

No I am not. There is a rule that posters are not to misrepresent what another poster says. The Old Covenant was with the Hebrews. The New Covenant is with people of all nations and all walks of life.

Abrahamic Covenant is with Abraham and his seed. Gentiles do not come from his seed.

Technically they do for we all come from Adam. That aside, you completely ignore the covenant of redemption which began its progression towards Christ, and now continues towards its fullness, with Adam and Eve. The same one that was also made with Abraham and His Seed, rather than seed. One is land (seed) the other is eternal life through faith (Seed). (Romans 9:7-9) Gal 3:15-18 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as many, but as one, "And to your Seed." And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
26. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus, And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Mosaic Covenant is with the children of Israel in the desert.
The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.

See above.

The Hebrew Scriptures - including the Psalms - were written by Hebrews TO and FOR the Hebrew peoples 'consumption.' They were used to worship and praise the God of Israel.

Yes, they were. But I am able to make the distinction in them as to the application in their time and circumstance, and the eternal aspects of God relating to His covenant people. It is what we see David, for example, asking God for, rejoicing over answered prayer---the very way in which He is relating to God and knows God and trusts God---in everything and for everything. David knew God. And in his writing we are given an extensive and glorious revelation of who God is. If that means nothing to you, if it does not increase your knowledge of God and your trust in Him, then you have jumped the rails. If you say that has nothing to do with Gentiles, that the God of the Psalms in not the God of the Gentiles, and that they have no security in it, no comfort, no joy, by way of a covenant relationship with God, (which is the only way any Israelite had any comfort or trust from it) then you need to adjust your focus. Did you ever notice how in some of the Psalms. "Your mercy indures forever." or "Your love endures forever." will sing praises of His mercy and love for all the things He has done for Israel. Then in a few more verses say things like "You destroy kings," or "drown them in the waters." concerning Israel's enemies, and follow it with the same line---"Your love endures forever."? How can that be called mercy or love? It is coming from a covenant relationship pov. All the Psalms are.

 

[Arial]

And as you are a Reformer you should know we don't and can't place our trust in "Him." We are in bondage to sin as Martin Luther said. And thank God for that because we in our sinful, unatoned state do not have faith or trust towards God. We are DEAD in trespasses and sin, separated from the commonwealth of Israel.

As a Reformer, as you put it, I know that we are commanded to put our trust in Him, and were with the very act of being created by Him, from Adam and Eve on. The fact that we fell, and fell into bondage to sin, does not change that. When you figure out what the commonwealth of Israel is----and the Bible is quite clear on that should one pursue knowledge of the things of God from the source, who is God of course, you will be able to understand what is meant by that statement in Eph. When you understand the purpose and position of Israel in redemption, then you can clear your head of the cobwebs. Not stumble on the stumbling stone as the Jews did.

Within the context of Eph 2 leading up to that statement and immediately following, it tells you quite plainly so that you should see the purpose and position of Israel in redemption. It is one story J, with many parts. And look at that sentence you refer to and what follows it and that you treat in all you say as though it was not there.




11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,d but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God bye the Spirit.

As a Reformer you should know we are not saved by our faith but by the Perfect Faith of the Son of God. It was His Faith God the Father honored and through which anyone in the book of life is saved.

As a Reformer I know that we are saved by grace through faith and that is not of ourselves but is a gift of God. Yes, Jesus had perfect faith. Perfect obedience is the natural product of perfect faith. So it is a part of His righteousness that is counted as ours. We are saved by Christ and through faith His work is applied to us. You evidently understand as little of Reformation theology as you do of covenants.

We don't choose Him, He chooses us, and I for one and grateful and thankful because no one seeks God, everyone loves darkness and hates the light (Christ), neither come to the light in order to be saved.
Predestination. Election. Calling. These are all doctrines of the Reformed denomination. You don't believe these things no more?

I believe all those things. What makes you think I don't? Are you losing track of the conversation? I don't see where you are making that connection. There is rule against misrepresenting a person for the sake of argument.

 

[jeremiah1five]

5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,


“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessd did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,


“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
(Romans 9)

You are stumbling over the same stumbling stone when it comes to covenant. "My people" indicates a personal relationship to God, and a personal relationship with God is a covenant.

The Old Testament passages you provided is a Jewish prophet sent by God to Covenant Israel. It doesn't apply to Gentiles, which is what you want it to say but it doesn't say. God made no covenant with Gentiles. None. The personal relation is covenant based between Abraham, his seed and the God of Abraham.

It contains obligations and promises, and in the case of the New Covenant, all the obligations and promises are the responsibility of God with none placed on the people as is the case in the Old Covenant with Israel. The first bilateral. The second unilateral. That is why we have a Bible that contains two covenants in its very distinctions between two covenants.

The Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenant are between God and the Hebrew people. These are the three covenants God has with the Hebrew people who are also His Church and His Bride.

No one was saved unto eternal life in the Old. Only those who had faith yet still sometimes sinned. That remains the same, but faith post incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, of Christ (true Israel because He is faithful Israel)is through faith in His person and work and does give eternal life.

In the process of time God laid out three saving Covenants that build upon each other. The Abrahamic Covenant was to divide Hebrew from non-Hebrew (Gentile.)
The Mosaic Covenant is with the children of Israel and the Law being type and shadow of the Holy Spirit, the same Law/Holy Spirit He promised in the New Covenant to put in THEIR inward parts and included in that covenant. The Law of Moses to a non-spiritual people (Israel) is everything Israel was to obey when the New Covenant is initiated before the return of Christ and the Law by which Israel will live by after their Redeemer-King-Messiah sits on His throne after the nations (Gentiles) are destroyed. Who ever is left of this epic last battle will occupy the land surrounding the Jews in their Promised Land as God will cleanse all Gentiles from the Land God Promised to His people the Jews.
The New Covenant speaks of the Holy Spirit - the Law - that God will put in their inward parts to obey for the kingdom of Christ and God is within "you", and no longer on stone to obey failing from without.

The new covenant is established by God, just as the old was. But in the new God makes promises just as He did in the old. Those promises can be found in the epistles so I will not reiterate them all.

No, those specific promises are only referred to in the New Covenant writings, but they are found in the Old Testament. Peter, James, John, Saul had to search the Hebrew writings in order to make sense and understand the New Covenant era that began with the Advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise on the day of the Hebrew Feast of Harvest (Pentecost.)

But they are what give us hope that is certain in all that He promises.

They are there to give God's covenant people Israel hope. God made no covenant with Gentiles and is not obligated to do anything of value for Gentiles.

Included in that, because He is God and does not change, are the ways in which He treats and relates to His covenant people, which we see in the things that David in particular speaks to Him and about Him. He treats His adopted children (and even the Hebrews in Rom 9 were referred to as adopted) both Jew and Gentile like what they are. His little children and He is their Father. Covenant security and safety and trust. For God always keeps His promises.

There are no Gentiles in any of the Hebrew Covenants.
The Abrahamic Covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed and Gentiles do not come from Abraham's seed.
The Mosaic Covenant with the seed of Abraham, or the children of Jacob/Israel. There are no Gentiles in this covenant as the children of Jacob, twelve sons and their offspring, make up Abraham's seed. This is one reason why God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There are no Gentiles in any of the Hebrew Covenants.