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Covenant of Works

Does not Paul make that exceedingly clear?

The NT does not present a works righteousness, ever. . .even for the OT (Ro 3:20), for righteousness has always been by faith, never by law-keeping:
Gal 3:10-12 - "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law because 'The righteous will live by faith' (Hab 2:4) , and the law is not of faith, it is of works (i.e.; 'the man who does these things will live by them,' Lev 18:5)"

Note that the reason no one will be justified by the law is not because no one can keep it perfectly, but is because righteousness is not by, and has never been, by law keeping,
And that includes the man Christ's righteousness, he was born with it, just as Adam was. He kept it, Adam lost it.
It is as clear as can be...

I'd recommend he not to argue against the existence of the Covenant of Works; not here anyway. I'd argue FOR something like Premillenial Dispensationalism, instead of against the Covenant of Works...
 
Good question. I am responding to the “Covenant of Works” doctrine. That doctrine is defined by others, and as I have discovered here on this forum, is not monolithic and has a lot of variations.

The 4 conclusions that I stated are summations of my reading and research. They represent how different authors/subject matter experts have defined it and the Biblical basis for the C.O.W., as I understood them. (Represented by me as bullet points.)

I am told that what I have presented is largely a Presbyterian viewpoint. R.C. Sproul, (who was a Presbyterian elder) has been noted by @Josheb as a credible source as well.

At the outset, I stated my 4 conclusions in an effort to insure that my understanding accurately reflects the teachings of the Covenant of Works. It has been said that the Baptists thought Adam could eat from the tree of life immediately (no probation), others agreed with my use of Genesis 2 & 3 to refute probation, and others have suggested their own versions of the C.O.W.

I say this to clarify that I espouse no version of the C.O.W. - by the end, I am pretty sure the foundations of Presbyterian, Baptist and probably most other variations of the C.O.W. will be challenged.

After doing my research, I have come to see that the Bible texts contradict the essential teachings of the C.O.W. In fact, some of the evidence used by Calvin and others to prove the doctrine of the C.O.W. contradicts other widely held Christian doctrines. It is not internally consistent.

If there is a 5th or 6th Conclusion needed, please describe what it is, the essence of the teaching so I can consider it. Until then, my four conclusions represent the key teachings of the C.O.W., as I understand the, to be.
You actually seem to be avoiding the tough questions by using a scapegoat. No disrespect intended. I asked the question what you consider constitutes a covenant of works because you made the unambiguous statement that there was no such thing as a covenant of works. And it seems to me that if a person were going to dispute a covenant of works, they would do so by actually using the covenant of works as given in the confessions, or commentaries on the confessions, instead of what other writers wrote giving their own explanation that begins with a blatant addition to the scriptures.
 
I am good with hearing the different viewpoints. It would help me if they were identified …
Well, you're in the right board for that. The soteriology boards of most forums (along with their Trin boards) tend to be the most vitriolic. I prefer something more along the lines of...

Proverbs 15:1-7
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, But the mouth of fools spouts folly........... A soothing tongue is a tree of life, but perversion in it crushes the spirit. A fool rejects his father's discipline, but he who regards reproof is sensible. Great wealth is in the house of the righteous, but trouble is in the income of the wicked. The lips of the wise spread knowledge, But the hearts of fools are not so.


I haven't finished reading through the thread (commendable that your op fostered so much response in such a short time, btw) but I've noticed everyone seems to have accepted a covenant of works as a given. However, I'm not sure everyone holds the same view of the term, and the exchanges have portions where folks are talking pass each other. It might a little late for this, but it would be good for you to define the term as you mean it to be used so we can all discuss the term as intended in this thread. Either way, I see I am the outlier, so I'll try to post in a manner accepting the premise as a given.
 
You actually seem to be avoiding the tough questions by using a scapegoat. No disrespect intended. I asked the question what you consider constitutes a covenant of works because you made the unambiguous statement that there was no such thing as a covenant of works. And it seems to me that if a person were going to dispute a covenant of works, they would do so by actually using the covenant of works as given in the confessions, or commentaries on the confessions, instead of what other writers wrote giving their own explanation that begins with a blatant addition to the scriptures.
Having been on Fotums for years, I notice obfuscation quickly, but I don't think he's the worse I've seen...
 
Well, you're in the right board for that. The soteriology boards of most forums (along with their Trin boards) tend to be the most vitriolic. I prefer something more along the lines of...

Proverbs 15:1-7
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, But the mouth of fools spouts folly........... A soothing tongue is a tree of life, but perversion in it crushes the spirit. A fool rejects his father's discipline, but he who regards reproof is sensible. Great wealth is in the house of the righteous, but trouble is in the income of the wicked. The lips of the wise spread knowledge, But the hearts of fools are not so.


I haven't finished reading through the thread (commendable that your op fostered so much response in such a short time, btw) but I've noticed everyone seems to have accepted a covenant of works as a given. However, I'm not sure everyone holds the same view of the term, and the exchanges have portions where folks are talking pass each other. It might a little late for this, but it would be good for you to define the term as you mean it to be used so we can all discuss the term as intended in this thread. Either way, I see I am the outlier, so I'll try to post in a manner accepting the premise as a given.
Early on he's given a framework of four Conclusions, outlining the Covenant of Works; which I think deserves an A instead of an A+. Others of us may have graded them lower...
 
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At the risk of going of on a tangent, what is a strict determinist, as you mean it here? I believe absolutely everything after God is determined by God. But I don't mean that implies robothood, nor negates the operation of the will of the morally responsible individual creature. Do you mean by "strict determinist", the hyper-calvinist who claims humans have no choice?
It is tangential but still a worthy inquiry because of the diversity within monergism. A "strict" determinist, or a "meticulous" determinist believes every minute detail of creation is pre-determined and everything was, is, and will be only as has all already been decided. Every thought you and I have, every word spoken, every choice made, and every action taken have all already been decided and determined by someone else (God) and we cannot and will not do anything other than what has been determined. It's an extreme view within monergism, or Calvinism. Compatibilism would be an alternative view within monergism/Calvinism, for example. A. W. Pink's "Sovereignty of God" would be an example of a point of view at the full-determinism end of the spectrum. Calvin, strictly speaking (no pun intended ;)) world fall some place on that side of the spectrum without the extremism because while he acknowledge a certain liberty (I prefer "liberty" over "free") of the will inherent in everyone but that liberty compromised to the point of enslavement by sin. A person thinks, wills, and acts according to their "nature," and among the sinful that nature is sinful - so much so that the will is unable to come to God for salvation from the condition in its own faculties (total depravity). A less deterministic form of compatibilism, for example, would hold that every choice any human makes, though existing as a product of his experience and the circumstances of life, is freely made but will nonetheless, somehow, conspire to have happen exactly what God has decided will happen. Divine will and human will (even in the sinless state) are compatible. I, personally, am going to be alongside Calvin. I believe there are conditions (plural) like God, sin, and temporal circumstances that are both despotically binding and deterministic, but I side with Calvin on the real volitional agency of humanity enslaved to either sin or righteousness.

The same kind of "spectrum" exists one the synergist side of soteriology, too. Radical volitionalism, like Pelagianism holds that humanity is sufficiently autonomous and powerful even in the sinful state that we can do anything when sufficient knowledge and opportunity exist and even that is largely within one's ability to effect change. On the other end of the spectrum we have Arminius, an adherent of total depravity. In between there exists the Provisionist (closer to Pelagius) and the Wesleyan (closer to Arminius).

Neither view is monolithic; both contain theological diversity. That people use like terms without common, shared, and agreed upon definitions is one of the reasons these discussions so often go nowhere (except, maybe, to rancorland :().
 
Work to gain salvation.
From what did Adam need salvation prior to Genesis 3:6?
Corrupted dying mankind. Not before but as result of breaking what Doug calls the probationary period. It is in need of defining. Some add to the probationary period The same one that had ended in death. The letter of the law performed its work of killing. And the temporal flesh and blood returns to the dust and the temporal spirit given un the letter of the law (death) returns to the parole officer God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

No probationary period for those born again they serve to the Newness of eternal life.In a hope of shedding these bodies of sin

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

Many dismiss the instrument of death as having no probational value.
None of which applies prior to Genesis 3:6. All those comments and every single verse quoted are post-disobedient conditions. The op is framed in what existed BEFORE Adam disobeyed God and was discharged from Eden, not after.
 
Completely incorrect.
Nope. . .a covenant is a contract.
No terms = no contract/covenant.

There was neither law (Ro 5:12-14) nor covenant between Adam and Moses.
If a person disobeys God (the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil) then they die. If a person partakes from the flesh of Jesus (the tree of life) then they inherit eternal life.
Nope. . .not between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:14) when there was nothing to disobey (Ro 4:15, 5:12-14).
Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Nope. . . context, context, context. . .irrelevant, not about covenant of works, but about flesh vs. spirit in the life of the believer.
Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bondservants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
The terms do still exist.
Revelation 22:14-19
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life.......... if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
I do not take my doctrine from figurative prophecy, subject to more than one interpretation.
I take my doctrine only from NT didactics, with which all prophecy will be in agreement.
That is correct. One must live, be crucified with Christ, die physically, and be resurrected in his name in order to have eternal life. All men have been appointed to die once and then face judgment (Heb. 9:27). Enoch and Elijah are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule.
All half-truths.
Abundant life is about quality of life and abundant life is not synonymous with or identical to eternal life. When Jesus promises abundant life it can be had here on earth just as much as it will be had on the other side of resurrection.
Eternal life is very much about duration since it ensues only after being raised immortal (1 Cor. 15:53-54).
Straw man. . .
Romans 2:6-7
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...
Denying salvation by faith alone? (Eph 2:8-9)
True faith is faithful. But the faithfulness/works do not save, only their faith does.
Maybe
Denying the persistence of the covenant of God
Straw man. . .
is dangerous and evidence of lack.
Agreed. . .dangerous to your theology, and evidence of your lack of context and my lack of belief in it.

Just sayin'.
 
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Good question. I am responding to the “Covenant of Works” doctrine. That doctrine is defined by others, and as I have discovered here on this forum, is not monolithic and has a lot of variations.

The 4 conclusions that I stated are summations of my reading and research. They represent how different authors/subject matter experts have defined it and the Biblical basis for the C.O.W., as I understood them. (Represented by me as bullet points.)

I am told that what I have presented is largely a Presbyterian viewpoint. R.C. Sproul, (who was a Presbyterian elder) has been noted by @Josheb as a credible source as well.

At the outset, I stated my 4 conclusions in an effort to insure that my understanding accurately reflects the teachings of the Covenant of Works. It has been said that the Baptists thought Adam could eat from the tree of life immediately (no probation), others agreed with my use of Genesis 2 & 3 to refute probation, and others have suggested their own versions of the C.O.W.

I say this to clarify that I espouse no version of the C.O.W. - by the end, I am pretty sure the foundations of Presbyterian, Baptist and probably most other variations of the C.O.W. will be challenged.

After doing my research, I have come to see that the Bible texts contradict the essential teachings of the C.O.W. In fact, some of the evidence used by Calvin and others to prove the doctrine of the C.O.W. contradicts other widely held Christian doctrines. It is not internally consistent.

If there is a 5th or 6th Conclusion needed, please describe what it is, the essence of the teaching so I can consider it. Until then, my four conclusions represent the key teachings of the C.O.W., as I understand the, to be.
I think some clarification is order because I, for one, may not be clear concerning the givens of the opening post.

The op appears to frame its "covenant of works" and/or its "probationary period to that period of time BEFORE Adam disobeyed God and was discharged from Eden. Otherwise, what then is the temporary time period (the "probationary period") during which Adam was to "perform “works” of righteousness by meeting the conditions of personal, perfect and perpetual obedience before God would allow Adam to eat from the tree of life"? That probationary period could not have been after Genesis 3 because Adam was forced to leave Eden and prohibited from ever eating from the tree of life. If the probationary period was between verses Genesis 3:6 (when he disobeyed God and sin entered the world) and Genesis 3:24 when he was driven out of the garden, then that probationary period necessarily exists with a sinful man living in a sinful world unable to obtain righteousness of his own on his own. Only between Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:6 do we have a period of time when Adam was good and sinless living in a good and sinless world.

I might be wrong, but I don't think there is a monergist/Calvinist anywhere in Christian history who will dispute that categorization.

Define the COW and when the probationary period was thought to apply because most talk of the COW has to do with works of the Law (not law) and the notion people can earn their way after sin.
 
Early on he's given a framework of four Conclusions, outlining the Covenant of Works; which I think deserves an A instead of an A+. Others of us may have graded them lower...
Yep. I've been gone a couple of days and busy on the days I've visited the thread so haven't been able to attend as I'd like because it's a very worthy topic. I see a lot has been added but I also believe some further clarification is in order (although I may still be missing some info because I haven't finished reading through all 19 pages (why do we do this? :unsure:).
 
After doing my research, I have come to see that the Bible texts contradict the essential teachings of the C.O.W. In fact, some of the evidence used by Calvin and others to prove the doctrine of the C.O.W. contradicts other widely held Christian doctrines. It is not internally consistent.
This is not the first time you have made reference to Calvin and the covenant of works in this manner. I admittedly may have missed any quotes given from Calvin, and if you have them I would appreciate seeing them. I did a search this morning and among other things, none of which Calvin actually deals in detail with the Adamic covenant, the following is what I found. Calvin deals with the unity of the covenant, one covenant, the covenant of eternal life in Christ through faith, made in the Godhead before creation, and having many parts, or sub covenants as I understand it, as redemption flowed forward to its culmination in Christ. Progressive revelation. And all Calvins statements on the covenants flow from theology---God and who He is.

Calvin scholars have found only one passage in which the Reformer speaks explicitly of God’s covenant with pre-fall Adam. In the Institutes, he writes of the “covenants” (plural) with Adam and with Noah and their respective sacraments or signs:

One is when [God] gave Adam and Eve the tree of life as a guarantee of immortality, that they might assure themselves of it as long as they should eat of its fruit [Gen. 2:9; 3:22]. Another, when he set the rainbow for Noah and his descendants, as a token that he would not destroy the earth with a flood [Gen. 9:13-16]. These, Adam and Noah regarded as sacraments. Not that the tree provided them with an immortality which it could not give to itself; nor that the rainbow (which is but a reflection of the sun’s rays opposite) could be effective in holding back the waters; but because they had a mark engraved upon them by God’s Word, so that they were proofs and seals of his covenants (4.14.18, p. 1294).8
Thus Calvin refers once to a pre-fall covenant with Adam, whereas he develops “the covenant of his mercy” (2.10.20, p. 446), manifested progressively in the covenants with post-fall Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and David, and “ratified,” “confirmed” and “proved” in Christ (Comm. on Isa. 55:4).9
https://cprc.co.uk › articles › calvinscovenanttheology1
 
You actually seem to be avoiding the tough questions by using a scapegoat. No disrespect intended. I asked the question what you consider constitutes a covenant of works because you made the unambiguous statement that there was no such thing as a covenant of works. And it seems to me that if a person were going to dispute a covenant of works, they would do so by actually using the covenant of works as given in the confessions, or commentaries on the confessions, instead of what other writers wrote giving their own explanation that begins with a blatant addition to the scriptures.
OK, let’s see. I quoted the Westminster Larger Confession, Question 20 verbatim (I did exclude the scriptures cited.) I posted four conclusions of the C.O.W. teachings, in summary form. They distill the common teachings of the C.O.W. from numerous sources.

While it may not be satisfactory to you, the confessions are short. Here it is from the Ligonier website:


  1. The first covenant made with man was a covenant of works, wherein life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience.
I say that this covenant, noted above, never existed. It is contrary to explicit Bible texts. The definition of what constitutes a covenant of works is already done. I understand that you disagree with theologians who have written about the covenant of works, and I get that. But the confessions are included in my summaries. They define what makes a covenant of works. In my summaries you can find each element of the formal confessions is addressed.

i have not published on the forum a rebuttal of each conclusion - yet.

I don’t know how I could be more clear - the C.O.W. is defined by others. I have no obligation to create my own definition - it would, in my opinion, be presumptuous of me to do so. You disagree with those that I used, but wouldn’t you agree that some reformed colleges, universities and theological seminaries might have a different, and valid opinion, of what defines the C.O.W.?

If I use their subject matter experts as sources, it is a commonly used research approach, and not scapegoating. That is my opinion.
 
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This is not the first time you have made reference to Calvin and the covenant of works in this manner. I admittedly may have missed any quotes given from Calvin, and if you have them I would appreciate seeing them
I cite Calvin specifically in the rebuttal to Conclusion #2.
 
I cite Calvin specifically in the rebuttal to Conclusion #2.
Which you haven't presented yet right? If you have could you give the post # rather than us having to wade through pages of what would be very confusing to find and easily missed. If you haven't presented rebuttal to conclusion #2 when do you plan to do so, that we might move forward?
 
From what did Adam need salvation prior to Genesis 3:6?
Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer he needed salvation. He was under the letter of the law death Thou shall not or you will really die and never raise to new life. probation broken off with your head (LOL)

New creatures no probation. .

In the new order . No letter of the law (death) Death will rise up and condemn an entire creation ever again.

The letter of the law existed the letter of the law pronoucehed him guilty. A person could say the angel with flaming swords protected the integrity of the living word having the power of life and death
 
Nope. . .a covenant is a contract.
No terms = no contract/covenant.
Incorrect. A covenant is a kind of contract but it is also something more than a contract. Thinking a covenant is only a contract is mistaken and misguided. I recommend you give consideration to the fact ALL the covenants with God are ALL always monergistically initiated, not negotiated.
There was neither law (Ro 5:12-14) nor covenant between Adam and Moses.
That is incorrect. The Law did not exist, but laws did exist. Adam was commanded not to eat from the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden. That is a law. There were laws pertaining to marriage that existed long prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law (see how many times the phrase "in--law" is used prior to Exodus 20). Centuries prior to giving Moses the Law God told Abraham,

Genesis 26:4-5
"I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."

You're wrong here, Eleanor. What Romans 5 states is that there wasn't a standardized means of accounting for all sins until the Law was provided, not that law did not exist before then. Go back and re-read the whole Romans 5 narrative again with that in mind. Paul explicitly states sin reigned from the time of Adam until Moses. How would he know that if there hadn't been rules stipulating what qualifies as sin?
Nope. . .not between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:14) when there was nothing to disobey (Ro 4:15, 5:12-14).
LOL!!!

Genesis 4:6-7 proves otherwise. Babel, Abraham's treachery with Abimelech, Sodom and Gomorrah and Laban's deceiving Jacob all prove otherwise. The law of sin and death has always existed. If you disobey then you die.

Genesis 6:5-6
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

How could God say such a thing if there were no metrics?
Nope. . .irrelevant, not about covenant of works, but about flesh vs. spirit in the life of the believer.
Incorrect again. The only works a human has apart from Christ and the regenerative and indweeling influence of the Spirit is works of flesh.
I take my doctrine only from NT didactics, with which all prophecy will be in agreement.
Scripture proves otherwise.
Straw man. . .
Scripture proves otherwise.
Denying salvation by faith alone? (Eph 2:8-9)
Nope.
True faith is faithful.
Yep, and nothing I posted should be construed to say otherwise. If what I posted was thought to say otherwise, then you made (another) mistake and should go back and re-read what was posted without the prejudice.
But the faithfulness/works do not save, only their faith does.
Yep. and nothing I posted should be construed to say otherwise. If what I posted was thought to say otherwise, then you made (another) mistake and should go back and re-read what was posted without the prejudice.
Straw man. . .
Scripture proves otherwise.
Agreed. . .dangerous to your theology, and evidence of my lack of belief in it.

Just sayin'.
Ad hominem noted and given the credence it is due.



The fact is the covenants are all God-initiated and monergistically so. God does not ask anyone if they want to participate prior to His choosing them, calling them, and commanding them. It is only after He has done these things that He ever asks any of the participants for any choice on their part. All other contracts are profoundly different in this regard. Furthermore, there is a theme of love and passion within the covenants that does not exist in other contracts (such as business contracts where fiscal profit is the motive). The statement "a covenant is a contract" is woefully inadequate, and thereby incorrect. Furthermore, the conditions of the covenant do persist. The benefits and consequences of the covenant, its blessings and curses, persist and I provided a sampling of scripture from the beginning to the end of scripture to prove that fact. Just as the tree of life existed in the garden, so too does that tree exist in the new city of peace. Just as there are consequence for disobedience that bring death in the garden, so too are there still consequences that bring death for all other forms of disobedience. No straw men at all. Paul called it the law of sin and death.

If you disobey, then you die.

The wages of sin is death and sin reigned from the time of Adam to Moses even when there was no Law by which sin might be made accountably known to the sinner. One Law, lots of laws.
 
Hi Thanks for the reply.

I would offer he needed salvation.
From what?
He was under the letter of the law death Thou shall not or you will really die and never raise to new life.
Which did not apply as long as he did the shall and did not do the shall not. The condition of the conditional "thou shall not" did not yet apply. I applied, it was applicable only after the "shall not" had occurred.
probation broken off with your head (LOL) New creatures no probation. In the new order . No letter of the law (death) Death will rise up and condemn an entire creation ever again.
Not relevant to Adam in the garden.
The letter of the law existed the letter of the law pronounced him guilty. A person could say the angel with flaming swords protected the integrity of the living word having the power of life and death
None of which existed prior to Genesis 3:6.


From what did Adam need salvation prior to Genesis 3:6? The death of the command not to eat from the forbidden kiwi did not exist prior to Genesis 3:6. It applied only after Adam disobeyed God, eating the forbidden kiwi, and that occurred at Genesis 3:6.

From what did Adam need salvation prior to Genesis 3:6?
 
Denying salvation by faith alone? (Eph 2:8-9)
True faith is faithful. But the faithfulness/works do not save, only their faith does.
Denying whose faith as a labor of love? . In the example below. (1) faith coming from faithless men or(2) faith in respect to our unseen Holy Father that works in those yoked with him . Human faith God say we have no faith that could please Him .

Faith of Peter or Christ who rebuked Peter of blasphemy against the son of man Jesus and rebuked Satan . things of men sen or eternal things of God not seen (faith) .He was forgiven again.

Human faith no power to rise from the dead Deuteronomy 32:20

In that way faith is used throughout the bible every time the ord appear it is bolded in red .God is the source of faith as power .He gives us liltle caling usof litle faith . Peter said he must increase as we decrease

Mathew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

By faith yoked with Christ Abraham by heard the voice of God it empowered him to beleive God and finish the work to the glory of his eternal Father
 
Yep. I've been gone a couple of days and busy on the days I've visited the thread so haven't been able to attend as I'd like because it's a very worthy topic. I see a lot has been added but I also believe some further clarification is in order (although I may still be missing some info because I haven't finished reading through all 19 pages (why do we do this? :unsure:).
He has Links to PDFs in here somewhere...
 
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