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COL 1: 18

The qahal stands in distinction to Israel (not all Israel is Israel). Not all Israel is qahal. Not all Israel is ecclesia.
Not all is Israel is Israel, true, yet is all the church the church?
(another difference between Israel and the Church).
 
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Not all is Israel is Israel, true, yet is all the church the church?
Christ spoke of the Kingdom, in which there are both wheat and tares.

If you understand the church to be the Kingdom presented in the gospels before the atonement, then all the church is not the true church.

If you understand the church to be the body of Christ, as presented in the NT (Eph 5:30-32), then all the church is the true church.

Eph 5:30-32 is the NT definition of the church; i.e., the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union.
 
Messenger has no reference to human or angel. There have been human and angel messengers.
In post #35 you said, "Angel simply means messenger.", now you say, "Messenger has no reference to human or angel." Waa?
 
Are you saying you believe the church is future from like, our present day?

Can you be more clear what you are trying to say?
I would say, the church has many similarities to Israel, but it's not synonymous with Israel.
One of those differences is in Matthew 16 where Jesus says, "I will build my church", which is future tense, not "I have been building my church.", as many of the Reformed believe.
 
Eph 5:30-32 is the NT definition of the church; i.e., the bride and body of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union.
New Testament definition? Isn't that implying an OT definition as well?
 
Not all is Israel is Israel, true, yet is all the church the church?
(another difference between Israel and the Church).
Yes, all the church is the church----invisible. No, not all persons attending a Christian church are the church. Only the believers are a part of the church. So all the called out ones are Christ's church.
 
Not all is Israel is Israel, true, yet is all the church the church?
Yes, all of the Church is the Church*.

First and foremost, in scripture the word "church" or "ecclesia" is always a reference to people. It is never a reference to a building, never a reference to a religious or political institution. Those are not inherently misuses of the word, but they are extra-biblical uses. When scripture uses the word "church" it always means the saints, those who are the temple of God, the body of Christ. This is evidenced in places like Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. Paul opens his letter stating the letter is addressed to the church at Corinth, and then he proceeds to elaborate on their identity, such as,

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours........

So, the "church," the "ecclesia," is synonymous with the saints, those sanctified by Jesus, those who call upon Lord Jesus. There may be a lot of people sitting next to you or I in the pew on Sunday, but they have not all been sanctified and they do not all call upon Jesus as Lord (and Savior). They are in a church building, but they are not the Church*. Or, as 1 Corinthians 3:16 elaborates, they may be in a church building, but they are not the temple of God. The ecclesia are always the naos Theous.

To put it in Old Testament vernacular would be to say the qahal, the assembly of God, is the Israel that is Israel. It is those who live by faith in the Christological covenant promises of God that are the Israel that is Israel, the assembly of God's people. This is kinda important because the first time the word "Church" or "ecclesia" is used in the New Testament it occurs before Calvary or Pentecost! It happens in Matthew and Matthew was probably written first in Aramaic and the translated into Greek (some say that was an effort to reconcile it with Mark's gospel). Whether correct or not, Jesus did not preach/teach in Greek. He was a Jew and most likely spoke in Hebrew and Aramaic. He, therefore, didn't use the word "ecclesia." He used the word "qahal," but to his original audience that would have been understood as an equivalent to ecclesia in Greek because that was already established when the Jews translated their scriptures into the common language of Greek.

Matthew 16:17-20
And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ.

This passage has been the source of much debate but much of that much debate can be discarded when it is understood Jesus was saying, he would build his assembly, those he called out, upon Peter and his statement. Jesus was not going to build the qahal/ecclesia on Peter's denial, Peter's hypocrisy, Peter's flightiness, etc. It would be stupid to think such a thing. It's just as foolish to separate the man from what he stated in that moment.

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

This clarifies the matter somewhat because Jesus was not teaching his disciples to take other disciples to the Sanhedrin (or the Sadducees, Pharisees, or other Jewish leaders). Such an interpretation would be wholly incompatible with what ensues the rest of that day and the next because all of those guys were actively plotting to resist Jesus and by the end of the day kill him! Jesus was NOT saying, "Take your brother to my murderers." He was saying, "Take him to those my Father has called out," those indwelt with the Holy Spirit by which any matter can be adjudicated justly." That teaching is so laden with prophetic promise Jesus' original audience would have dumbstruck. They'd have instantly thought of piles of Tanakh references, such as the first "song" of Isaiah in Isaiah 42.

Isaiah 42:1-4
Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry out or raise his voice, nor make his voice heard in the street. A bruised reed he will not break and a dimly burning wick he will not extinguish; he will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed until he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands will wait expectantly for his law....

I've cut that short for the sake of space, but the point is those in assembly hearing that on the day of Jesus' entrance into Jerusalem would have understood Jesus was talking about a justice brought about by God's suffering servant. Not all assembled that day were part of the assembly. This is made clear as Matthew recounts what happened after Jesus cleaned out the temple and returned the next day to find it re-infested with death and desolation. Two days later Jesus would be dead by the hands of the Jewish leaders conspiring with Roman occupiers. They were not the Israel that is Israel, nor are they the qahal or the ecclesia.


The church has always been the church. There are no fakes in Christ's actual body.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.'"

Lots of poseurs.

Galatians 4:6-9
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

It's not enough to claim to "know" God or Jesus. A person must know and be known by God to be a member of the Church, the ecclesia, or as Paul put it in the letter to the Church in Galatia, those whom Jesus rescued from that present age according to the will of his Father, those who by the grace of God were called to the gospel of Christ.














* I capitalize Church because of the ambiguity inherent in the word so as to distinguish the body of Christ (the Church) from the local congregations (the churches). A variety of monikers have been assigned the word "church" over the millennia, such as the "invisible" versus "visible" church, or the fact the word "church can mean a building, not people. Scripture never uses that word in any of those ways.
.
 
New Testament definition? Isn't that implying an OT definition as well?
I dunno'. . .is it?

It would be all those who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16); i.e., the one olive tree (Ro 11:16-23) of all God's people.
 
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Pentecost was a special filling of the Holy Spirit, whom we see given in Jn 20:22-23.

The Holy Spirit comes with rebirth (Jn 3:3-5).

They were born again before Pentecost.


Hi @Eleanor

The Promise of the Father wasn't given until after Jesus ascended (see my quote below). The Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism that makes us born again. Until that baptism was available, it was impossible to be born again. That's the baptism that places us into Christ, making us one with Him. The Promise of the Father is the NT indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What happened in John 20:22-23, just after the resurrection, but still before the ascension (John 20:17), couldn't be the receiving of the NT indwelling.

If you're interested, here's a link that gives one plausible explanation of why that one passage seems to be at odds with multitudes of other scripture. Start with "The action". It's not long.


From my thread "What Happened In Acts?" All of these prophesied the giving of the Promise of the Father after Jesus' ascension and would be false if they received the NT indwelling at John 20:22-23, and not Acts chapter two.

"After Jesus' death and resurrection, 'the' Holy Spirit--'the' Promise of the Father--'the' agent of baptism, could then only be given after these happened first as prophesied.
...........1) Christ must go away, depart, physically seen no more. John 16:7, John 16:10.

...........2) He must be glorified. John 7:39.

...........3) To "send" the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, John 15:26, Acts 1:4-5) He must first go away.

...........4) He must go to the Father. John 16:7-10.

That's my quick answer. Hope it doesn't derail the thread. This topic get lengthy.

Dave
 
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Hi @Eleanor

The Promise of the Father wasn't given until after Jesus ascended (see my quote below). The Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism. Until that baptism was available, it's impossible to be born again. That's the baptism that places us into Christ, making us one with Him. The Promise of the Father is the NT indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What happened in in John 20:22-23, just after the resurrection, but still before the ascension (John 20:17), couldn't be the receiving of the NT indwelling.
The disciples needed God's help to carry out the commission they had just been given.

"He breathed on them," giving them new life as he breathed life into man at creation.
If you're interested, here's a link that gives one plausible explanation of why that one passage seems to be at odds with multitudes of other scripture. Start with "The action". It's not long.

 
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I would say, the church has many similarities to Israel, but it's not synonymous with Israel.
One of those differences is in Matthew 16 where Jesus says, "I will build my church", which is future tense, not "I have been building my church.", as many of the Reformed believe.
When did he start building his church? What is the foundation
 
Yes, all the church is the church----invisible. No, not all persons attending a Christian church are the church. Only the believers are a part of the church. So all the called out ones are Christ's church.
That's why all Israel is not Israel.
 
In post #35 you said, "Angel simply means messenger.", now you say, "Messenger has no reference to human or angel." Waa?
Yes, a messenger has to be some intelligent being that can talk. It refers to men sometimes and angels other times.
The point is that the being gives a message.

Haggai 1:13 Then Haggai, the LORD's messenger, spoke the LORD's message to the people, saying, "I am with you, says the LORD."

Messenger = mal'ak - Derived from the root verb לָאַךְ (la'akh), meaning "to send."
Usage: The Hebrew word "malak" primarily refers to a messenger or envoy, often used to describe both human and divine messengers. In the context of divine messengers, "malak" is commonly translated as "angel" in English Bibles. These beings are depicted as servants of God, carrying out His will and delivering His messages to humans. The term can also refer to human messengers, such as those sent by a king or leader.
Translated in the New American Standard as ambassadors (2), angel (101), angels (9), envoys (1), messenger (24), messengers (76).

Angel in the New Testament
Transliteration: aggelos
Pronunciation: ANG-gel-os (Los Angeles - The city of angels)
Word Origin: Derived from the root ἀγγέλλω (aggellō), meaning "to announce" or "to bring tidings."
Usage: In the New Testament, "aggelos" primarily refers to a supernatural being sent by God to deliver messages, execute His will, or provide guidance and protection to humans. It can also refer to human messengers in certain contexts. The term emphasizes the role of the messenger rather than the nature of the being.
 
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