COL 1: 18

[Eleanor]

It says their own olive tree.. So we are grafted into their own tree?

Yes, the olive tree is the one people of God, both OT and NT (Ro 11:17-23).
They were the only people of God in the OT, the only nation on the olive tree, the beginning of the church (ekklesia, "assembly in the wilderness," Ac 7:38), and whose only destiny now is to be grafted back into that one olive tree IF (not "when) they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

Romans 11:24 ESV
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

"IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief" (Ro 11:23).

 

[EarlyActs]

It says their own olive tree.. So we are grafted into their own tree?

Romans 11:24 ESV
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The important point is that the olive tree is not any one of the race-nations. When he said 'their own,' he did not mean the race-nation; he meant those who believed, but lost their grip. Notice that the tree (the true olive tree) only stands by faith. Did you read the intro of vs 1-4?

It should be easy, by way of background, for the Jewish person to believe, but the obstacles are nearly insurmountable. The veil!

The tricky thing about reading ch 11 is that he has to mention the race-nations out of necessity ("I'm speaking to you gentiles") but there is no race-nation identity to the tree. Likewise, he mentions slave v free, but Christian faith is not confined to one or the other. This prevents revolution, btw, but fosters necessary reform peaceably.

 

[prism]

"IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief" (Ro 11:23).

My point of Romans 11: 24 is that we Gentiles are being granted into their own tree, which runs counter to what I have been arguing. That the church is is separate from Israel. Oh well.

 

[Eleanor]

My point of Romans 11: 24 is that we Gentiles are being granted into their own tree, which runs counter to what I have been arguing. That the church is is separate from Israel. Oh well.

Yes, the one olive tree of God's people consisted only of Israelites until the NT. It was "their own tree," the one tree of God's people, from which unbelieving Israel was cut off, and now to which believing Gentiles are grafted in, and to which Israel will be grafted back IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, which they have for 2,000 years now.

 

[Carbon]

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Looking at Colossians 1:18, I ask, "How could the church exist in the Old Testament when the incarnation and resurrection had not happened yet?"

Think about Christ being the Alpha and the Omega. That should put your thoughts on the right track.

 

[Carbon]

The NT Church began as described in Acts 2:4.

Christ said said that He will build His church (Matthew 16:18).

Just as the OT church started with Adam and Eve. And the Church, both old and new is the body of Christ.

 

[Carbon]

Study the NT.

There is one olive tree, made up of all true believers, both OT and NT, from which unbelieving Israel has been cut off, while only the believing remnant remains, just as also only a believing remnant of Gentiles are included (Ro 11).

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Yes, the one olive tree of God's people consisted only of Israelites until the NT. It was "their own tree," the one tree of God's people, from which unbelieving Israel was cut off, and now to which believing Gentiles are grafted in, and to which Israel will be grafted back IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, which they have for 2,000 years now.

Spiritual Israel. Which is both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Whatever]

Sp my point is that "church" is an assembly of the called out ones---God's people. Whether in the OT or the NT. The NT is a continuation of the OT, not separate from it. It is all the same story. The history of redemption. The NT is what the OT made way for. The new covenant. The coming of the Savior and the one who sheds the blood of the covenant. There was never a time when Messiah did not exist.

Yes, and this is the whole thing dispensationalists miss.

King James
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church ekklesia in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

New King James and other newer translations.
Acts 7:38 "This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness . . . .

So when Jesus said I will build my ekklesia the disciples who probably grew up on the Greek NT understood what He was saying. He did not invent a new word.

 

[Whatever]

Is there two sides to heaven...the old testament saints and the new testament saints?

Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Both OT saints and NT saints are now one body.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Yes, and this is the whole thing dispensationalists miss.

King James
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church ekklesia in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

New King James and other newer translations.
Acts 7:38 "This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness . . . .

So when Jesus said I will build my ekklesia the disciples who probably grew up on the Greek NT understood what He was saying. He did not invent a new word.

Too add a little only. The word ekklesia is Greek for assembly or congregation (often translated "church") or alternatively, is qahal in the Hebrew language.

Here's some Old Testament references for the word qahal or church being used for Old Testament Israel:

Deuteronomy 9:10
"And the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God, and on them were all the words that the Lord had spoken with you on the mountain out of the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly (qahal)."

Deuteronomy 18:16
"Just as you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly (qahal), when you said, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire anymore, lest I die.'"

Joshua 8:35
"There was not a word of all that Moses commanded that Joshua did not read before all the assembly (qahal) of Israel, and the women, and the little ones, and the sojourners who lived among them."

1 Chronicles 28:8
"Now therefore in the sight of all Israel, the assembly (qahal) of the Lord, and in the hearing of our God, observe and seek out all the commandments of the Lord your God, that you may possess this good land and leave it for an inheritance to your children after you forever."

Psalm 22:22
"I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation (qahal) I will praise you."

Psalm 107:32
"Let them extol him in the congregation (qahal) of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders."

Isaiah 4:5
"Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies (qahal) a cloud by day and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy."

 

[prism]

Yes, and this is the whole thing dispensationalists miss.

King James
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church ekklesia in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Right there, highlighted in red, we see a difference between the 'church' in the Old Testament and the church in the New Testament. Since when do we have angels as mediators?
Also, why did the history of the church stop in and around Acts 28 while it continues through pretty much the Old Testament? (Did the New Testament church end at Acts 28)?
And why is faith mentioned only two times in the Old Testament, whereas it comes up 245 times in the New Testament?

 

[Carbon]

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Looking at Colossians 1:18, I ask, "How could the church exist in the Old Testament when the incarnation and resurrection had not happened yet?"

What is the church?

 

[Eleanor]

What is the church?

The one olive tree of God's people, composed of both OT and NT saints,
unbelieving Israel having been cut off and believing Gentiles grafted in (Ro 11:16-23).

 

[Whatever]

Right there, highlighted in red, we see a difference between the 'church' in the Old Testament and the church in the New Testament. Since when do we have angels as mediators?

The "Angel" Stephen was speaking was the Lord Himself.

NKJ
Exodus 3:2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Angel simply means messenger.

And why is faith mentioned only two times in the Old Testament, whereas it comes up 245 times in the New Testament?

Probably to counter the false Jewish idea that keeping the law was the way to God. They spent a lot of time in the NT arguing over this.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Looking at Colossians 1:18, I ask, "How could the church exist in the Old Testament when the incarnation and resurrection had not happened yet?"

The church basically comes from a greek word ekklesia, meaning a gathering or an assembly

In the OT the assembly was represented by Israel with the priesthood.

After christ. This change to a new assembly. As Jesus said, this new message would start in jerusalem. Spread to the whole earth.

 

[Whatever]

The church basically comes from a greek word ekklesia, meaning a gathering or an assembly

I read several articles on this, and they think it was a mistake to translate ekklesia as Church. It should have been brought over like the word "baptism" was. It would have probably eliminated the idea of Dispensatinalism, that Israel and the Church are separate and have different destinies.

 

[Dave]

The way I see it is that the Church is a spiritual Body. Jesus is the Head of that Spiritual Body. Jesus is, for all intents and purposes, the Spiritual Body, called the Church (Eph 1:22-23). Nobody could be placed into Him until Pentecost. So while the Church, that being Jesus, existed in the OT, the birth of the Church, as we call it, is the first believers being placed into that Body, our Ark (1 Peter 3:18-21), Jesus.

Dave

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I read several articles on this, and they think it was a mistake to translate ekklesia as Church. It should have been brought over like the word "baptism" was. It would have probably eliminated the idea of Dispensatinalism, that Israel and the Church are separate and have different destinies.

As a dispensationalist I can say with certainty it would not have affected it

Israel and the church are one entity as far as eternity goes. It always has been

 

[Dave]

There is one olive tree, made up of all true believers, both OT and NT, from which unbelieving Israel has been cut off, while only the believing remnant remains, just as also only a believing remnant of Gentiles are included (Ro 11).

I believe that the Gentiles were grafted into the promises made to Israel, but those promises did not begin to be realized until Pentecost.