COL 1: 18

[prism]

Faith is a better word

That brings up the fact that faith is mentioned only two times in OT.

 

[Arial]

That's why all Israel is not Israel.

All Israel is not Israel is a direct reference to true Israel (spiritual Israel) all being the people of God in true and faithful Israel---Christ Jesus. Only those of faith in Israel belonged to spiritual Israel, and spiritual Israel is the whole point. National Israel is just where the Seed was. It was in Seth, in Noah---jump ahead---in Abraham, in Isaac, in Jacob---jump ahead---in David.

 

[prism]

All Israel is not Israel is a direct reference to true Israel (spiritual Israel) all being the people of God in true and faithful Israel---Christ Jesus. Only those of faith in Israel belonged to spiritual Israel, and spiritual Israel is the whole point. National Israel is just where the Seed was. It was in Seth, in Noah---jump ahead---in Abraham, in Isaac, in Jacob---jump ahead---in David.

OK, I would define Israel a bit different.
It would be the believing line of Abraham-->Isaac--> Jacob, which you would call the church. I'd rather use the biblical definition.

 

[Josheb]

John 17:3 ESV
And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Do you think that occurs apart from also being (salvifically) known by God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That brings up the fact that faith is mentioned only two times in OT.

Abraham believed God

We can say abraham did more than just believe, He trusted or had faith.

Heb has a long list of great mean and women who had faith in the OT

OK, I would define Israel a bit different.
It would be the believing line of Abraham-->Isaac--> Jacob, which you would call the church. I'd rather use the biblical definition.

Israel also called jacob in the OT referred to the living sons of Jacob and their offspring

 

[Josheb]

Yet @Josheb said in #67 'it is not enough to believe'.

That is NOT what Post 67 states (see rule 2.2).

What Post 67 states is,

It's not enough to claim to "know" God or Jesus.

It's not enough to claim to "know" God or Jesus. A person must know and be known by God.

And the reason that is important is because that answers the question asked in this op. Those knowing God and known salvifically by Him is how the Church can exist, how Colossians 1:18 can be true prior to Calvary. Satan knows God. God knows Satan, too. God does not know Satan salvifically. Satan is not a member of the Church.

 

[Arial]

OK, I would define Israel a bit different.
It would be the believing line of Abraham-->Isaac--> Jacob, which you would call the church. I'd rather use the biblical definition.

That is not how I define the church. I was defining what all of Israel were not all Israel means. And I never defined the church as the believing line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I said that is where the Seed was. The Seed is Christ as Paul tells us, and those in Christ are the church. The nation Israel and the natural descendants were not the called out ones in the same sense as the church in Christ is. They were called out of the other nations, to alone be the people of God at that time. Those who kept the law through faith were and are a part of the church. But Christ's church is not called out of all nations, rather it is in all nations, and are called out of Adam and into Christ as God's children. Christ's church has nothing to do with ethnic lineage. or a plot of land.

 

[prism]

Do you think that occurs apart from also being (salvifically) known by God?

Acts 13:48 ESV
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[prism]

Abraham believed God

We can say abraham did more than just believe, He trusted or had faith.

Heb has a long list of great mean and women who had faith in the OT

True: So you stated 'Abraham believed God' which is found in the NT, e.g. Rom 4, not the OT.

Israel also called jacob in the OT referred to the living sons of Jacob and their offspring

But not all the offspring believed.

 

[prism]

Satan knows God. God knows Satan, too. God does not know Satan salvifically. Satan is not a member of the Church.

There are several senses of know (see below) in Greek. The reason satan could not 'know' Jesus in an intimate sense is because Jesus did not die for the angelic world, He died for fallen mankind.

Here are two examples...

• Ginōskō (γινώσκω):
  This word signifies a deeper, more intimate knowledge, often involving experience or a personal relationship. It's used to describe the knowledge of God, as well as the knowledge of people and things through experience.
  
  
• Oida (οἶδα):
  This word suggests a more factual or intuitive kind of knowledge, often based on observation or revelation. It can describe knowing something because you've seen it or because God has revealed it to you.

 

[prism]

That is not how I define the church.

I did use the word 'different', no?

I was defining what all of Israel were not all Israel means. And I never defined the church as the believing line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I know that. Did I say you did?

They were called out of the other nations, to alone be the people of God at that time. Those who kept the law through faith were and are a part of the church.

yes, a type of the elect.

But Christ's church is not called out of all nations, rather it is in all nations, and are called out of Adam and into Christ as God's children. Christ's church has nothing to do with ethnic lineage. or a plot of land.

Which shows a difference between the OT/NT and by extension, the Church in the OT and NT

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

True: So you stated 'Abraham believed God' which is found in the NT, e.g. Rom 4, not the OT.

In romans 4 Paul quoted Moses.

Gen 15: 6 And he (abraham) believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

But not all the offspring believed.

Correct. But faith is still all over the OT

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I did use the word 'different', no?

I know that. Did I say you did?

yes, a type of the elect.

Which shows a difference between the OT/NT and by extension, the Church in the OT and NT

actually no

Salvation has been the same since Adam. Grace through faith'

It Shows God called a nation out. and had (has) a purpose for that nation.

The church, however was still all believers of all nations.. (saved Nineveh would have been part of the church and will be with us in heaven

 

[Whatever]

I would define the Church as all those who are and will be saved in the end.
They speak of the Triumphant Church - all those with the Lord now and at the end.
And the Militant Church - all Christians here in this life now still fighting sin.

 

[Arial]

Yet @Josheb said in #67 'it is not enough to believe'.

Mod Hat: This is a misrepresentation of what Josheb said. What he said is this:

It's not enough to claim to "know" God or Jesus. A person must know and be known by God to be a member of the Church, the ecclesia, or as Paul put it in the letter to the Church in Galatia, those whom Jesus rescued from that present age according to the will of his Father, those who by the grace of God were called to the gospel of Christ.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I would define the Church as all those who are and will be saved in the end.
They speak of the Triumphant Church - all those with the Lord now and at the end.
And the Militant Church - all Christians here in this life now still fighting sin.

so they are not part of the church because they are fighting sin?

 

[Josheb]

Acts 13:48 ESV
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Ezra 6:6
"Now therefore, Tattenai, governor of the province beyond the River, Shethar-bozenai and your colleagues, the officials of the provinces beyond the River, keep away from there.

I can quote scripture, too. Unblessedly, those two quotes you've posted do not answer the question asked. Would you please answer the question asked?

Do you think John 17:3 and Acts 13:48 occur apart from also being (salvifically) known by God?


.

 

[Josheb]

There are several senses of know (see below) in Greek. The reason satan could not 'know' Jesus in an intimate sense is because Jesus did not die for the angelic world, He died for fallen mankind.

Here are two examples...

• Ginōskō (γινώσκω):
  This word signifies a deeper, more intimate knowledge, often involving experience or a personal relationship. It's used to describe the knowledge of God, as well as the knowledge of people and things through experience.
  
  
• Oida (οἶδα):
  This word suggests a more factual or intuitive kind of knowledge, often based on observation or revelation. It can describe knowing something because you've seen it or because God has revealed it to you.

That's nice. It is not, however, an answer to the question asked.


Do you think John 17:3 and Acts 13:48 occur apart from also being (salvifically) known by God?



.

 

[prism]

Salvation has been the same since Adam. Grace through faith'

Obviously... and so?

 

[prism]

(saved Nineveh would have been part of the church and will be with us in heaven

Why weren't they part of the Church back then, when they repented and believed Jonah's warning?