Christ, the true Israel. A problem for dispensationalists.

[civic]

Strawman.

Is there any conclusion other than Jesus was a true son, true servant and true Israel?

Scripture doesn't state Jesus had a nose, but it does state he breathed on the apostles.
What do you conclude from that regarding a nose?

show me the verses calling Jesus the

" true Israel of God. "

if you can't its your strawman, not mine. Its your argument from silence, not mine. So don't project your lack of ability to support it with Scripture onto me.

If its not in Scripture I'm not buying what you are selling.

 

[Eleanor]

I'm a dispensationalist but I have bigger fish to fry like those who want to debate the big stuff like the Trinity , Deity of Christ, the Resurrection, the essentials, not the small stuff

I don't sweat the small stuff like eschatology.

Dispensationalism turns out not to be "small stuff," for it diminishes the doctrine of Christ and his bride, the church, God's one and only plan for all time and eternity, in some quarters relegating them to a "parenthesis" in history.
Nothing could be farther from the mind of God!

And the church is suffering because of its contra-NT ecclesiology and Christology.

 

[civic]

Dispensationalism turns out not to be "small stuff," for it diminishes the doctrine of Christ and his bride, the church, God's one and only plan for all time and eternity, in some quarters relegating them to a "parenthesis" in history.
Nothing could be farther from the mind of God!

And the church is suffering because of its contra-NT ecclesiology and Christology.

Yes amillinnialism is small stuff with spiritualizing the literal word of God. Dispensation it’s exalting Christ, the church and Israel . Gods word is literal when it comes to the promises to the nation of Israel. Nothing could be further from the mind of God than to take away His promises to Israel. Paul agrees with me in Romans 11. God loves both Israel/ the Jews and the church. 2 different plans, 2 different timelines, 2 different promises to 2 different groups 2 different peoples and 2 different covenants

 

[Eleanor]

The problem is not the prophecy it’s the spiritualizing of the fulfillments that were literal . Many are still future and scripture never stated they were fulfilled like with the 70ad false interpretations. Revelation was written after 70ad. They must even change the date of its writing to make their eschatology fit. There are so many errors within the amil system . It’s why I am so reject Covenant theology for the spiritualizing of similar texts concerning Israel. I Believe exactly like MacArthur that way. I use to debate it up through around 2015 on the old carm forums. :

It seems the apostles, our authority for Christian doctrine, are not in agreement with you regarding "spiritualizing" texts, as in:

1) Ro 9:24-26, 1 Pe 2:10 - where both Paul and Peter state that Israel is not the people of God (Hos 1:9), and that the promise to make them his people again (Hos 2:23) is fulfilled in the Gentiles. Paul and Peter are "spiritualizing" the OT text of Hos 2:23.

2) Heb 8:6-13, 10:15-18 - where Paul says the promise to Israel of a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is fulfilled in the Gentile church, which is the true Israel.

3) Heb 11:10, 13, 16 - where Paul says the everlasting possession promised to Abraham (Ge 17:8), was not earthly land, but a heavenly city (11:13) of eternal land/life (Jn 11:24-25). Paul is "spiritualizing" the OT texts of Jer 31:31-34 and Ge 17:8.

4) Ac 15:13-18 - where James says the promise (Am 9:11-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles. James is "spiritualizing" the OT text Am 9:11-12.

5) 1 Co 10:1-4 - where Paul says that Israel was baptized in the cloud, the manna was spiritual food, the water from the rock was spiritual drink, and the rock itself was Christ. Paul is "spiritualizing" the OT texts of Ex 14:22, 16:4, 17:6.

6) Dt 10:16, 30:6, Jer 4:4, 9:25-26, Ro 2:26-29 - where God says the circumcision of Ge 17:10-14 must be spiritual circumcision, and Paul says that only those who are spiritually circumcised (faith in Jesus Christ through the new birth of the Holy Spirit) are true Jews, that the rest of the Jews were not really Jews in the eyes of God. So God himself and Paul often "spiritualize" the text of Ge 17:10-14.

7) Heb 3:7-4:11 - where Paul says going into Canaan was only a partial and temporary entering into God's rest (Dt 12:10, 25:19), so that there remains a "spiritual" entering into God's (salvation) rest through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Paul is "spiritualizing" the OT texts of Dt 12:10, 25:19, Nu 14:30, Ps 95:7-11.

8) Gal 3:16 - where Paul "spiritualizes" the physical seed of Abraham as spiritual seed of the church.

9) Gal 4:26-27 - where Paul "spiritualizes" the text of Isa 54:1 regarding Sarah (the "mother" of Israel) as fulfilled in the NT church (Gal 4:26-27).

10) And then there is the "allegorizing" of the
Passover Festival (Ex 12:12-20) in 1 Co 5:7-8,
birth of Abraham's sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Ge 16:3-4, 21:1-3) in Gal 4:21-23,
substitute ram (Ge 22:13) as the resurrection of Isaac (Heb 11:19).

The objection to "spiritualizing" or allegorizing the text does not have its basis in the Bible, for the NT writers often "spiritualize" or allegorize the OT texts. In fact, to the NT writers, a correct understanding of the OT often required "spiritualizing" the text.
Are we more wise than the NT writers that we should forbid the OT to be interpreted spiritually?
It is that refusal which is the source of so much contra-NT teaching in dispensationalism, which, by the way, is new to the church in the last 200 years.
The popularity of dispenstionalism has done much damage to the Christology and eccelesiology of the bride of the Lamb, the NT church, God's whole purpose in creation.

 

[Carbon]

Dispensationalism turns out not to be "small stuff," for it diminishes the doctrine of Christ and his bride, the church,

Indeed.

God's one and only plan for all time and eternity, in some quarters relegating them to a "parenthesis" in history.
Nothing could be farther from the mind of God!

Right. God has one plan of salvation.

And the church is suffering because of its contra-NT ecclesiology and Christology.

 

[Carbon]

It seems the apostles, our authority for Christian doctrine, are not in agreement with you regarding "spiritualizing" texts, as in:

1) Ro 9:24-26, 1 Pe 2:10 - where both Paul and Peter state that Israel is not the people of God (Hos 1:9), and that the promise to make them his people again (Hos 2:23) is fulfilled in the Gentiles. Paul and Peter are "spiritualizing" the OT text of Hos 2:23.

2) Heb 8:6-13, 10:15-18 - where Paul says the promise to Israel of a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is fulfilled in the Gentile church, which is the true Israel.

3) Heb 11:10, 13, 16 - where Paul says the everlasting possession promised to Abraham (Ge 17:8), was not earthly land, but a heavenly city (11:13) of eternal land/life (Jn 11:24-25). Paul is "spiritualizing" the OT texts of Jer 31:31-34 and Ge 17:8.

4) Ac 15:13-18 - where James says the promise (Am 9:11-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles. James is "spiritualizing" the OT text Am 9:11-12.

5) 1 Co 10:1-4 - where Paul says that Israel was baptized in the cloud, the manna was spiritual food, the water from the rock was spiritual drink, and the rock itself was Christ. Paul is "spiritualizing" the OT texts of Ex 14:22, 16:4, 17:6.

6) Dt 10:16, 30:6, Jer 4:4, 9:25-26, Ro 2:26-29 - where God says the circumcision of Ge 17:10-14 must be spiritual circumcision, and Paul says that only those who are spiritually circumcised (faith in Jesus Christ through the new birth of the Holy Spirit) are true Jews, that the rest of the Jews were not really Jews in the eyes of God. So God himself and Paul often "spiritualize" the text of Ge 17:10-14.

7) Heb 3:7-4:11 - where Paul says going into Canaan was only a partial and temporary entering into God's rest (Dt 12:10, 25:19), so that there remains a "spiritual" entering into God's (salvation) rest through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Paul is "spiritualizing" the OT texts of Dt 12:10, 25:19, Nu 14:30, Ps 95:7-11.

8) Gal 3:16 - where Paul "spiritualizes" the physical seed of Abraham as spiritual seed of the church.

9) Gal 4:26-27 - where Paul "spiritualizes" the text of Isa 54:1 regarding Sarah (the "mother" of Israel) as fulfilled in the NT church (Gal 4:26-27).

10) And then there is the "allegorizing" of the
Passover Festival (Ex 12:12-20) in 1 Co 5:7-8,
birth of Abraham's sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Ge 16:3-4, 21:1-3) in Gal 4:21-23,
substitute ram (Ge 22:13) as the resurrection of Isaac (Heb 11:19).

The objection to "spiritualizing" or allegorizing the text does not have its basis in the Bible, for the NT writers often "spiritualize" or allegorize the OT texts. In fact, to the NT writers, a correct understanding of the OT often required "spiritualizing" the text.
Are we more wise than the NT writers that we should forbid the OT to be interpreted spiritually?
It is that refusal which is the source of so much contra-NT teaching in dispensationalism, which, by the way, is new to the church in the last 200 years.
The popularity of dispenstionalism has done much damage to the Christology and eccelesiology of the bride of the Lamb, the NT church, God's whole purpose in creation.

It's something how some even go against the apostles, as if they knew better. But then hide behind a wall.

 

[Carbon]

Can you quote the Apostles referring to Jesus as the true Israel. Thanks

The Apostle Paul, along with the other New Testament authors, in no uncertain terms explained that Jesus fulfilled each and every single shadowy and typical aspect of the old covenant ceremonial law 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Col 2:16-17.
just as He came to fulfill all of the Old Testament promises and prophecies For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. 2 Cor 1:20. While Christians profess that Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the preparatory and anticipatory aspects of the Old Testament, many lack the overarching framework by which the individual parts find their place in the grand narrative of God’s plan of redemption. In short, Jesus fulfills every preparatory and anticipatory aspect of the history of redemption in the Old Testament in general—and in the history of Israel in particular—because He is the true Israel of God. He recapitulates—summarizes and repeats—Israel’s history in His own experience and work in order to secure for His people the blessings promised to Abraham.

 

[Carbon]

Something you all may enjoy. ....wel..... .....maybe not all.

Who Is the True Israel of God?​

Who Is the True Israel of God? | Tabletalk

When we read of God’s promises of restoration that He gave Israel through the Old Testament prophets, we must do so through the lens of the person and work of Christ.

tabletalkmagazine.com

 

[Carbon]

Another problem for dispensationalists is the thousand years in Revelation 20. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

When Jesus rose from the dead it was the first concrete sign that the new creation had begun. Christ's resurrection is central to it. Consider the key millennial passage, Revelation 20:6, Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Here is what John says, Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24.

Now, according to Jesus' own words, the first resurrection occurs in the midst of this present age. And this is not a reference to the bodily resurrection which marks the end of the age.

If Christian believers have already been raised from death to life by virtue of the new birth, then in Revelation 20, John was not speaking of a future millennium but the present age. This is a serious problem for d'ism and pre-mils who argue that the first resurrection is the bodily resurrection associated with Christ's return.

 

[Carbon]

Yes amillinnialism is small stuff with spiritualizing the literal word of God. Dispensation it’s exalting Christ, the church and Israel . Gods word is literal when it comes to the promises to the nation of Israel. Nothing could be further from the mind of God than to take away His promises to Israel. Paul agrees with me in Romans 11. God loves both Israel/ the Jews and the church. 2 different plans, 2 different timelines, 2 different promises to 2 different groups 2 different peoples and 2 different covenants

7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Romans 9.

I'll go with the bible.

 

[Carbon]

I'm a dispensationalist but I have bigger fish to fry like those who want to debate the big stuff like the Trinity , Deity of Christ, the Resurrection, the essentials, not the small stuff

I don't sweat the small stuff like eschatology.

Your theology is based on D'ism, so of course it's important to you. You're just in denial.

 

[Marilyn C]

When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. Hosea 11:1.

Matthew tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus as a baby, was brought to Egypt for a time by his parents to protect him. Matthew 2.

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:13-18

What's interesting to note is Matthew centuries later took this passage (didn't spiritualize it) from Hosea, which referred to Isreal and tells us it was fulfilled in Christ.

Some call this belief spiritualizing a passage (replacement theology.) But hearing it from Matthew?

And according to the Apostles who wrote of these things wrote Jesus was the true Israel of God.

So God made a mistake by creating a new nation, then working with them for centuries only to discard them?

 

[Carbon]

So God made a mistake by creating a new nation, then working with them for centuries only to discard them?

God does not make mistakes.

God always had one plan, it’s how we understand or assume it should be is where the mistakes are.

 

[Marilyn C]

God does not make mistakes.

God always had one plan, it’s how we understand or assume it should be is where the mistakes are.

Matt. 2: 15 is the fulfillment of Hosea as you said -

`When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night and departed for Egypt, and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called my son.` (Matt. 2: 14 & 15.

`When Israel was a child I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. As they called them, so they went from them. They sacrificed to the Baals, and burned incense to carved images.` (Hosea 11: 1 & 2)

However, we do NOT read of God the Father ever calling His Son Israel! What happened to Israel, (going to Egypt and then coming out) is a fortelling of what happened to the Lord when young. There is NO reference to God`s Son being called Israel, but rather was named of the Father, Jesus. This naming reveals the purpose of the sent Son -

`And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call His name, Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.` (Matt. 1: 21)

 

[Eleanor]

Matt. 2: 15 is the fulfillment of Hosea as you said -

`When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night and departed for Egypt, and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called my son.` (Matt. 2: 14 & 15.
`When Israel was a child I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. As they called them, so they went from them. They sacrificed to the Baals, and burned incense to carved images.` (Hosea 11: 1 & 2)

However, we do NOT read of God the Father ever calling His Son Israel!

He does in Hos 11:1-2.

What happened to Israel, (going to Egypt and then coming out) is a fortelling of what happened to the Lord when young. There is NO reference to God`s Son being called Israel, but rather was named of the Father, Jesus. This naming reveals the purpose of the sent Son -

`And she will bring forth a son, and you shall call His name, Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.` (Matt. 1: 21)

 

[Marilyn C]

He does in Hos 11:1-2.

I don`t see the full scripture in Matthew but just the relevant part and NOT including `Israel.`

 

[Eleanor]

I don`t see the full scripture in Matthew but just the relevant part and NOT including `Israel.`

Good point.

 

[EarlyActs]

Compare the remnant theme in Rom 11. It appears to prove to Paul that God is working with Israel as much as others, and as much as expected. Compare the 144K in the Rev. If it is only that much, and the remnant shows God at work sufficiently, I dont' know why people need to find a 'total' Israel period.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ex.4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Isa49:
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.

jn6
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;
but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Heb8
8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

[EarlyActs]

Ex.4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
Isa49:
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.

jn6
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven;
but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Heb8
8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Can you make that speak to a previous post? What problem are you answering or speaking to?