Christ, the true Israel. A problem for dispensationalists.

[Carbon]

We wouldn't want that to happen.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I thought it was because I was a lovable guy.

You are complicated.

I, for example, am a jerk and lovable. Can't see why you can't be the same. So cheers, brother.

 

[Carbon]

The apostles taught Jesus was the true servant, the true son, and the true Israel of God.
Isaiah also spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of god. Through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed. So, Jesus is also the true seed of Abraham.

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” Gal 3.
Abraham believed the same gospel Paul preached, And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29.

From the beginning the true children of Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile will be heirs of God's promise. If they are Christ's who is the true seed of Abraham.


8 But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
10 fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Isaiah 41.

 

[Carbon]

The apostles taught Jesus was the true servant, the true son, and the true Israel of God.
Isaiah also spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of god. Through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed. So, Jesus is also the true seed of Abraham.

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” Gal 3.
Abraham believed the same gospel Paul preached, And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29.

From the beginning the true children of Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile will be heirs of God's promise. If they are Christ's who is the true seed of Abraham.


8 But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
10 fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Isaiah 41.

Now I am aware that D'ism has an answer for this. I was a Dispensationalist so I am well aware. However, there are many who are dipsy's who do not know D'ism that well. But I am waiting to have "a friendly debate" on this if someone does.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

See my status, Carbon. And good luck.

 

[civic]

The apostles taught Jesus was the true servant, the true son, and the true Israel of God.
Isaiah also spoke of Israel and the descendants of Abraham as the people of god. Through the seed of Abraham that the nations of the earth would be blessed. So, Jesus is also the true seed of Abraham.

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” Gal 3.
Abraham believed the same gospel Paul preached, And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:29.

From the beginning the true children of Abraham, whether Jew or Gentile will be heirs of God's promise. If they are Christ's who is the true seed of Abraham.


8 But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
9 you whom I took from the ends of the earth,
and called from its farthest corners,
saying to you, “You are my servant,
I have chosen you and not cast you off”;
10 fear not, for I am with you;
be not dismayed, for I am your God;
I will strengthen you, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Isaiah 41.

What I see happening here is you are adding the word " true " to the following when I do not see the word " true " in the above.

true servant
true son
true Israel of God

now we have gone from me asking you where He is called : the " true" Israel of God to now in addition to the above where is He called the "true son" and the "true servant"

I would like the scriptures for all 3 now, thanks.

Without scriptures for them how can we have a discussion ?

 

[Carbon]

See my status, Carbon. And good luck.

Your status?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Your status?

Yes. And this is your site.

 

[Carbon]

What I see happening here is you are adding the word " true " to the following when I do not see the word " true " in the above.

true servant
true son
true Israel of God

now we have gone from me asking you where He is called : the " true" Israel of God to now in addition to the above where is He called the "true son" and the "true servant"

I would like the scriptures for all 3 now, thanks.

Without scriptures for them how can we have a discussion ?

It's in the apostle's teachings. Follow along. It is nothing you must believe, I am not trying to convince you, it's a free country. If you do not see what I am saying in the scripture I presented or will present, there are a few conclusions. 1) I am wrong.
2) You don't understand 3) You are in denial. 4) I don't understand

But please understand brother. I do not feel the need to break every word and sentence down and explain it. It's obvious we are both from different eschatological beliefs and that's fine. It's obvious we will not agree on everything.

 

[Carbon]

Yes. And this is your site.

You lost me bro. I honestly don't know what you're talking about. But, for some reason, I think I should?

 

[civic]

It's in the apostle's teachings. Follow along. It is nothing you must believe, I am not trying to convince you, it's a free country. If you do not see what I am saying in the scripture I presented or will present, there are a few conclusions. 1) I am wrong.
2) You don't understand 3) You are in denial. 4) I don't understand

But please understand brother. I do not feel the need to break every word and sentence down and explain it. It's obvious we are both from different eschatological beliefs and that's fine. It's obvious we will not agree on everything.

I'm not pushing any eschatology right now that is irrelevant at this point. All I'm asking for are the sciptures that Call Him the TRUE- son, servant and Israel of God.

I don't think that is asking to much for you to show me the scriptures for your belief on this topic. You brought it up not me so all I was doing is asking for biblical proof.

And imho there is nothing wrong with me asking you to provide the scriptures. If this was reversed I would provide the scriptures if you were asking me to give them. just sayin.

 

[Carbon]

I'm not pushing any eschatology right now that is irrelevant at this point. All I'm asking for are the sciptures that Call Him the TRUE- son, servant and Israel of God.

I don't think that is asking to much for you to show me the scriptures for your belief on this topic. You brought it up not me so all I was doing is asking for biblical proof.

No, your right., There is nothing wrong with you asking.

But I believe if you follow along you will see the obvious. That's usually the best way to get a point across.

Again there are some things we will not agree on. In this case, even the styles we have. And that is okay too.

And imho there is nothing wrong with me asking you to provide the scriptures. If this was reversed I would provide the scriptures if you were asking me to give them. just sayin.

Follow along.

 

[Carbon]

true servant
true son
true Israel of God

And I do understand that all these would have to be false in order for dispensationalism to survive.


It's the result one gets when poking a lion with a stick.

So, I take no offence brother.

I just desire to discuss these things in a friendly way.

 

[civic]

And I do understand that all these would have to be false in order for dispensationalism to survive.

But at this point I'm not interested in either one of our views on eschatology. I'm only interested in the scriptures that say He is the true son,servant and Israel of God is all.

 

[Carbon]

I have to run out for a bit. In the meantime, I will leave dispensationalists with this.

How is the prophecy supposed to be interpreted?


It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and it shall be lifted up above the hills;
and peoples shall flow to it,
2 and many nations shall come, and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,[a]
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
and shall decide disputes for strong nations far away;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war anymore;
4 but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree,
and no one shall make them afraid,
for the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken.
5 For all the peoples walk
each in the name of its god,
but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God
forever and ever. Micah 4.

 

[Carbon]

What I see happening here is you are adding the word " true " to the following when I do not see the word " true " in the above.

true servant
true son
true Israel of God

now we have gone from me asking you where He is called : the " true" Israel of God to now in addition to the above where is He called the "true son" and the "true servant"

I would like the scriptures for all 3 now, thanks.

Without scriptures for them how can we have a discussion ?

When the word true is used, its saying that what was previous was just a type and shadow.

 

[civic]

When the word true is used, its saying that what was previous was just a type and shadow.

I know the meaning of true I didn’t see any verses saying Jesus is the true son, servant or Israel of God.

 

[Carbon]

I know also that many scriptures must be interpreted a certain way or D'ism comes crashing down. It's also very obvious Daniel 9:24-27 has to be interpreted correctly for a dispy, especially the "he" in verse 27, which must not be Jesus, but the antichrist.

The biggest issue Dipsys have is interpreting the NT by the OT in Daniel. Instead of the other way around, ie, interpreting the OT by the NT which is the correct way. And by doing this it prevents them from seeing the passage for what it really teaches. Which is a truly great messianic prophesy which was fulfilled by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Instead of anyone getting upset over this, please, consider it.

 

[Carbon]

Another issue dipsey's have is they understand Daniel 9:24 as referring only to national Israel.
Dan 9:24, “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

But consider this a messianic prophecy. Let's look at it in that sense.

Christ's active obedience can be seen here in reference to his threefold offices, prophet, priest, and king.

to bring in everlasting righteousness, which Christ did through his perfect obedience as the final priest. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
Consider, to seal both vision and prophecy, which he did in his prophetic office. Deut 18:15-16 & Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. Acts 3:22. Peter declares Jesus to be the greater prophet.
And finally, and to anoint a most holy place. This is probably referring to the anointing of the Messiah.
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; Isaiah 61:1.

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3.

The failure of D'ism to see this leads to much error regarding the future.

By the erroneous interpretation of D'ism as to Vs:24 referring to national Israel, not Jesus causes them to stumble badly in their interpretation of vs:27.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

You lost me bro. I honestly don't know what you're talking about. But, for some reason, I think I should?

https://christcentered.community.forum/members/crazycalvinistuncle.22/

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