Christ, the true Israel. A problem for dispensationalists.

[Carbon]

When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. Hosea 11:1.

Matthew tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus as a baby, was brought to Egypt for a time by his parents to protect him. Matthew 2.

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:13-18

What's interesting to note is Matthew centuries later took this passage (didn't spiritualize it) from Hosea, which referred to Isreal and tells us it was fulfilled in Christ.

Some call this belief spiritualizing a passage (replacement theology.) But hearing it from Matthew?

And according to the Apostles who wrote of these things wrote Jesus was the true Israel of God.

 

[Carbon]

Since the Apostles taught that Jesus was the true Israel of God, and the fulfillment of the OT prophecies, what remains of the dispensationalist's case that these prophecies are yet to be fulfilled in a future 1000-year Millennium? I'd say they are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and therefore vanish.

 

[Deleted member 6]

 

[civic]

When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. Hosea 11:1.

Matthew tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus as a baby, was brought to Egypt for a time by his parents to protect him. Matthew 2.

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:13-18

What's interesting to note is Matthew centuries later took this passage (didn't spiritualize it) from Hosea, which referred to Isreal and tells us it was fulfilled in Christ.

Some call this belief spiritualizing a passage (replacement theology.) But hearing it from Matthew?

And according to the Apostles who wrote of these things wrote Jesus was the true Israel of God.

Can you quote the Apostles referring to Jesus as the true Israel. Thanks

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. Hosea 11:1.

Matthew tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus as a baby, was brought to Egypt for a time by his parents to protect him. Matthew 2.

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:13-18

What's interesting to note is Matthew centuries later took this passage (didn't spiritualize it) from Hosea, which referred to Isreal and tells us it was fulfilled in Christ.

Some call this belief spiritualizing a passage (replacement theology.) But hearing it from Matthew?

And according to the Apostles who wrote of these things wrote Jesus was the true Israel of God.

Sez you.

 

[Carbon]

Sez you.

Nope. Go back to the post and re-read. I'm just agreeing with the scriptures.

 

[Carbon]

Can you quote the Apostles referring to Jesus as the true Israel. Thanks

There is so much there that is obvious. Do you deny it? You can if you want to, many do.

 

[EarlyActs]

When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son. Hosea 11:1.

Matthew tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus as a baby, was brought to Egypt for a time by his parents to protect him. Matthew 2.

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him.” 14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:13-18

What's interesting to note is Matthew centuries later took this passage (didn't spiritualize it) from Hosea, which referred to Isreal and tells us it was fulfilled in Christ.

Some call this belief spiritualizing a passage (replacement theology.) But hearing it from Matthew?

And according to the Apostles who wrote of these things wrote Jesus was the true Israel of God.

There is a completely different replacement problem mentioned twice in the NT. So it is quite a paradox that D'ism tries to assume the upper ground in this.

 

[Carbon]

Can you quote the Apostles referring to Jesus as the true Israel. Thanks

Do you realize as a dipsy you have to ignore so much explicit teachings?

Do you realize this?

 

[EarlyActs]

Can you quote the Apostles referring to Jesus as the true Israel. Thanks

It is not a matter of finding an isolated sound byte. There is chapter after chapter about the problem of the remnant vs the whole or race-nation. The olive tree analogy itself should suffice: it is not the race-nation, it is those who believe. The significance of that is that this definition (those who believe) in Romans spans back to ch 4, and ch 9 and forward to ch 15. In ch 9 especially, those who believe are identified as "us" and are who the prophets spoke of, in 4 quotes.

Absorbing whole chapters, or at least paragraphs, here is very important.

An ex. from Gal 6 might help. There is the single line 'peace be upon the Israel of God' where there is neither circumcision nor un-, but faith working through love. Well, if you know anything about Galatians you know that this is quite a stance apart from the race-nation as the Judaizers (Paul's opponents) would be.

Then there are the declarations like Eph 2-3 where very technical terms are used to say that the things promised to Israel belong to those who have faith, Jew or Greek. It is astonishing how poorly these are read by D'ists: most D'ists think that 3:5-6 is 'case closed' that no one knew the church was coming and that it is an 'interruption' of the 'main plan' of God. In fact, just the opposite is true.

 

[Carbon]

Ill wait .

Keep in mind d'ism claims there are 2 plans of salvation. One for the church and one for the Jews. So, many of these prophesies must be fulfilled by physical Israel, not spiritual Israel. Which is still future.

 

[EarlyActs]

Do you realize as a dipsy you have to ignore so much explicit teachings?

Do you realize this?

After several decades of talks and research, I have to agree. The D'ist case is based on very brittle homework, and in my first years I don't recall any of them mentioning Acts 13, even in the abstract.

 

[EarlyActs]

Ill wait along with you.

Keep in mind d'ism claims there are 2 plans of salvation. One for the church and one for the Jews. So, many of these prophesies must be fulfilled by physical Israel, not spiritual Israel. Which is still future.

Yes, the 2 peoples/programs doctrine is 'sine qua non' (the one essential) according to Ryrie. In his own way, he is right: if you are going to go D'ist, you absolutely must fracture the Bible in to 2P2P. But that is the point: it fractures the Bible to do so. One pastor I heard said Peter was actually a bit confused when he quoted Joel 2. Another, who was excellent on all other things, said of Dan 9:24: that can't be the event of Christ; there is going to be another atonement for Israel's sins later in the mill.

 

[Carbon]

After several decades of talks and research, I have to agree. The D'ist case is based on very brittle homework, and in my first years I don't recall any of them mentioning Acts 13, even in the abstract.

There you go, that's the word I was looking for. "Brittle" it is indeed.

 

[civic]

Do you realize as a dipsy you have to ignore so much explicit teachings?

Do you realize this?

I was just asking for a verse

 

[Carbon]

It's also worth considering what the author of Hebrews clearly teaches what he understood about prophecy. Even though the OT prophets of Jerusalem as an earthly city, the Apostles did not say or teach the prophecies would be fulfilled in a future earthly Jerusalem. The author of Hebrews said these prophecies were already fulfilled in Jesus. This heavenly Jerusalem has already come.

 

[Carbon]

I was just asking for a verse

Yes, I know, but...Nothing is ever interpreted with a verse. It's passages and context.

 

[Carbon]

I was just asking for a verse

This stuff is also problematic for Post-mills as well. So, don't feel along brother.

 

[civic]

Yes, I know, but...Nothing is ever interpreted with a verse. It's passages and context.

Just one so I can see any one of the 12 apostles call Jesus the new Israel . I thought that was a reasonable question to ask.

 

[Carbon]

Just one so I can see any one of the 12 apostles call Jesus the new Israel . I thought that was a reasonable question to ask.

If you understand how prophecy works you wouldn't ask for one verse.