Chimney Rock..if the earth is "old" why is it still here?

[Frank Robert]

You're right..the multi-continent...multi-layer sandstone we can actually go out and touch...says there was no flood.

It goes much deeper than touch. The erosion and deposition patterns of the Earth's surface displays a history of weathering, erosion, and deposition that occurs over vast time scales, inconsistent with a sudden, global flood.

Bioturbation also has a loud voice that clearly shows the strata was laid quickly on top of each other.

The primary drivers of Chimney Rock's iconic shape are erosion and weathering, bioturbation may have played a secondary role in influencing the characteristics of its sedimentary layers.

But, believe what you "need" to believe.

You are confusing consciousness of evidence with a personal conviction.

 

[CrowCross]

It goes much deeper than touch. The erosion and deposition patterns of the Earth's surface displays a history of weathering, erosion, and deposition that occurs over vast time scales, inconsistent with a sudden, global flood.

Not quite. Formations such as the Grand Canyon show a rapid gouging of that section of the Grand Staircase rather than being slowly eroded away by an underfoot river.

The primary drivers of Chimney Rock's iconic shape are erosion and weathering, bioturbation may have played a secondary role in influencing the characteristics of its sedimentary layers.

If each clearly demarcated strata as seen in the Grand Canyon for example were a result of the changing biome and fauna over long periods of time being deposited onto the previous layer .... bioturbation would have mixed the contact points between strata and the lines of demarcation would not be present as they are now. The better interpretation is each strata was laid onto of the other in rapid succession due to a flood....which is present in the bible as well as recorded in every people type world wide.

You are confusing consciousness of evidence with a personal conviction.

You're filtering the bible through mans fallible science and coming to the wrong conclusion.

 

[Frank Robert]

Not quite. Formations such as the Grand Canyon show a rapid gouging of that section of the Grand Staircase rather than being slowly eroded away by an underfoot river.

I am not denying the evidence for periods of rapid incision caused by specific events such as the lightening events that I posted previously. Still the mainstream geological consensus is that Chimney Rock reflects slow erosion punctuated by occasional, localized rapid events.

If each clearly demarcated strata as seen in the Grand Canyon for example were a result of the changing biome and fauna over long periods of time being deposited onto the previous layer .... bioturbation would have mixed the contact points between strata and the lines of demarcation would not be present as they are now. The better interpretation is each strata was laid onto of the other in rapid succession due to a flood....which is present in the bible as well as recorded in every people type world wide.

Bioturbation in the Grand Cannon and Chimney Rock would have affected these layers when they were still soft sediments, before they hardened into rock.

You're filtering the bible through mans fallible science and coming to the wrong conclusion.

Catholics along with many other Christians denominations believe that the relation of the Bible to science is complementary, with faith and reason working together to help people understand the truth.

 

[CrowCross]

I am not denying the evidence for periods of rapid incision caused by specific events such as the lightening events that I posted previously. Still the mainstream geological consensus is that Chimney Rock reflects slow erosion punctuated by occasional, localized rapid events.

The consensus I read says it was a product of the world wide flood.

Bioturbation in the Grand Cannon and Chimney Rock would have affected these layers when they were still soft sediments, before they hardened into rock.

Are you saying each strata hardened prior to the next being deposited?

Catholics along with many other Christians denominations believe that the relation of the Bible to science is complementary, with faith and reason working together to help people understand the truth.

Which is why the flood model works so well and eons of time doesn't.

 

[Frank Robert]

The consensus I read says it was a product of the world wide flood.

I agree that the consensus among creationist is a flood who but they fail to provide any geological evidence of a flood.

Are you saying each strata hardened prior to the next being deposited?

No. If you want an answer to what rate strata hardened you will need to ask a geologist.

Which is why the flood model works so well and eons of time doesn't.

The flood model works well in imagination and/or belief.

There simply isn't enough water on Earth to cover the entire planet, including mountains, and the geological record does not support such a catastrophic event, showing evidence of diverse ecosystems and gradual deposition of sedimentary rocks over long periods, not a single massive flood even

Twenty-one Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened

 

[CrowCross]

I agree that the consensus among creationist is a flood who but they fail to provide any geological evidence of a flood.

LOL...surely you jest???? How was dinosaur monument in Utah formed?

Sheeze, even your guys show a flood buried the animals....from WIKI....
The dinosaurs and other ancient animals were carried by the river system which eventually entombed their remains in Utah.

The pile of sediments were later buried and lithified into solid rock.

So Frank, please choose better words. For this you get a score of -1

No. If you want an answer to what rate strata hardened you will need to ask a geologist.

Have you ever seen a recumbent fold? Here's some images.
MULTIPLE strata bent. Obviously the layers of strata were still plastic. The rocks didn't snap, crackle and pop...they bent.
The folds speak LOUDLY of a rapid movement and compression of recently deposited flood sediment.

The flood model works well in imagination and/or belief.

There simply isn't enough water on Earth to cover the entire planet, including mountains, and the geological record does not support such a catastrophic event, showing evidence of diverse ecosystems and gradual deposition of sedimentary rocks over long periods, not a single massive flood even

Did you know if you could smooth out the earth to be like a cue ball...push all the land into the sea...even the mountains..the water would stand about 2 miles above the surface?

How were mountains formed....keep in mind you not being a bible believer might not accept this:

Psalms 104: 8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.

I spoke partially on this event when presenting the recumbent folds above.

Twenty-one Reasons Noah’s Worldwide Flood Never Happened

Lets look at number 1...

I can't cut and paste it so you'll have to go there and read the nonsense.

Why would the rock strata in the Grand canyon slump? Do you think the strata being eroded was hard like set concrete or liquid like recently poured concrete.....Your number 1 seems to leave out the semi-hard stage of the strata. Rather they claimed there was no time for the rock to harden. For this you get another score of -1.

Should I read the rest of the "reasons"...considering the ignorance of the first one?

 

[Frank Robert]

LOL...surely you jest???? How was dinosaur monument in Utah formed?

Sheeze, even your guys show a flood buried the animals....from WIKI....
The dinosaurs and other ancient animals were carried by the river system which eventually entombed their remains in Utah.

The pile of sediments were later buried and lithified into solid rock.

So Frank, please choose better words. For this you get a score of -1

Please reference the geological studies that provide the evidence for a world wide flood.

Have you ever seen a recumbent fold? Here's some images.
MULTIPLE strata bent. Obviously the layers of strata were still plastic. The rocks didn't snap, crackle and pop...they bent.
The folds speak LOUDLY of a rapid movement and compression of recently deposited flood sediment.

Thanks for the images. Creationists misinterpret and ignore the vast geological timescales and complex tectonic forces that actually created these formations

Did you know if you could smooth out the earth to be like a cue ball...push all the land into the sea...even the mountains..the water would stand about 2 miles above the surface?

How were mountains formed....keep in mind you not being a bible believer might not accept this:

Psalms 104: 8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.

In a previous post I pointed out that Catholics (which I am) and many other Christian denominations believe some parts of the Bible are symbolic, accordingly, Psalm 104 is a poetic summary of God's creation of the world, as described in the first chapter of Genesis. The psalm encourages people to appreciate the beauty of creation and to live in harmony with it.

I spoke partially on this event when presenting the recumbent folds above.

Lets look at number 1...

I can't cut and paste it so you'll have to go there and read the nonsense.

The folding of the sedimentary rock layers in the Grand Canyon is an example of tectonics, which are large-scale processes that determine the structure of the Earth's crust and mantle.
Source...

Why would the rock strata in the Grand canyon slump? Do you think the strata being eroded was hard like set concrete or liquid like recently poured concrete.....Your number 1 seems to leave out the semi-hard stage of the strata. Rather they claimed there was no time for the rock to harden. For this you get another score of -1.

Why would the rock strata in the Grand canyon slump? Geologists argue that creationists misinterpret the presence of recumbent folds in rock strata as evidence for a global flood by ignoring the vast geological timescales and complex tectonic forces that actually created these formations, often pointing to the fact that these folds are localized and show evidence of gradual deformation over long periods, not a sudden catastrophic event like a flood.
Source...

Should I read the rest of the "reasons"...considering the ignorance of the first one?

I would like to see the rest of your "reasons" along with your sources.

 

[CrowCross]

Please reference the geological studies that provide the evidence for a world wide flood.

There are many. The Genesis Flood by Henry Morris.

Studies in flood Geology by John Woodmorappe.

...I could present all kinds of Flood Studies. You act as if there are none.

Thanks for the images. Creationists misinterpret and ignore the vast geological timescales and complex tectonic forces that actually created these formations

With all due respect..your ignorance is prophetic.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant (you) of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

In a previous post I pointed out that Catholics (which I am) and many other Christian denominations believe some parts of the Bible are symbolic, accordingly, Psalm 104 is a poetic summary of God's creation of the world, as described in the first chapter of Genesis. The psalm encourages people to appreciate the beauty of creation and to live in harmony with it.

Rolls eyes...OK. What-ever.

The folding of the sedimentary rock layers in the Grand Canyon is an example of tectonics, which are large-scale processes that determine the structure of the Earth's crust and mantle.
Source...

What part of that link are you going to use for your argument?

Why would the rock strata in the Grand canyon slump? Geologists argue that creationists misinterpret the presence of recumbent folds in rock strata as evidence for a global flood by ignoring the vast geological timescales and complex tectonic forces that actually created these formations, often pointing to the fact that these folds are localized and show evidence of gradual deformation over long periods, not a sudden catastrophic event like a flood.
Source...

Here is a "map" of the area surrounding what would become the Grand Canyon. It is the water from the lakes presented that formed the canyon..NOT, and I repeat...NOT...the underfit Colorado river.

I would like to see the rest of your "reasons" along with your sources.

When you actually counter my reasons....we'll continue.

 

[Frank Robert]

There are many. The Genesis Flood by Henry Morris.

Studies in flood Geology by John Woodmorappe.

...I could present all kinds of Flood Studies. You act as if there are none.

I agree that there are many writings about the Flood, most if not all, by creationists.

With all due respect..your ignorance is prophetic.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant (you) of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Rolls eyes...OK. What-ever.

I appreciate the Bible as a divine book, as it has God for its author, it is a human book, in so far as it is written by men for men.

When you actually counter my reasons....we'll continue.

Your reasons are based on your creationist's beliefs. I can respect your beliefs without agreeing with them

 

[Frank Robert]

Here is a "map" of the area surrounding what would become the Grand Canyon. It is the water from the lakes presented that formed the canyon..NOT, and I repeat...NOT...the underfit Colorado river.

As usual you are 100% wrong. It appears that you are relying on creationist claims. You can easily use the internet for reliable resources.

The Colorado River is primarily responsible for carving the Grand Canyon by gradually eroding through layers of rock over millions of years, resulting in the deep gorge we see today. 1

The Colorado River's strong current, laden with sediment and debris, essentially acted like sandpaper, gradually eroding the rock layers in its path, leading to the deepening of the Grand Canyon over millions of years through a process called erosion; this continuous wearing away of the rock by the river's powerful flow is what carved the canyon's distinctive shape and depth.

Time scale: This process of erosion took millions of years, with the most significant carving happening within the last 5-6 million years

Canyon - National Geographic Education​

 

[CrowCross]

As usual you are 100% wrong. It appears that you are relying on creationist claims. You can easily use the internet for reliable resources.

The Colorado River is primarily responsible for carving the Grand Canyon by gradually eroding through layers of rock over millions of years, resulting in the deep gorge we see today. 1

The Colorado River's strong current, laden with sediment and debris, essentially acted like sandpaper, gradually eroding the rock layers in its path, leading to the deepening of the Grand Canyon over millions of years through a process called erosion; this continuous wearing away of the rock by the river's powerful flow is what carved the canyon's distinctive shape and depth.

Time scale: This process of erosion took millions of years, with the most significant carving happening within the last 5-6 million years

Canyon - National Geographic Education​

Your reasons are based on your old earth beliefs. I can respect your beliefs without agreeing with them.

 

[Frank Robert]

Your reasons are based on your old earth beliefs. I can respect your beliefs without agreeing with them.

Thank you, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

YECs are at a disadvantage though as only arguments they use are scientifically-inaccurate claims to try to disprove scientific methods. Even well know AIG fail to provide any proof or evidence of their own to demonstrate the earth is only 6,000 years as they claim.

 

[CrowCross]

Thank you, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

YECs are at a disadvantage though as only arguments they use are scientifically-inaccurate claims to try to disprove scientific methods.

I'll allow you to be wrong.

 

[Frank Robert]

I'll allow you to be wrong.

Yes, I could be wrong so I went to Google Scholar to research what YEC's write about science. Here are the topics I found.

Radiometric Dating is Flawed​

The Earth's Magnetic Field is Decaying​

The Earth’s magnetic field is decaying too rapidly for the planet to be billions of years old.​

Dinosaur Soft Tissue Indicates a Young Earth​

Fossil Layers Were Laid Down During Noah’s Flood​

Genetic Entropy Suggests Life Cannot Be Old​

The accumulation of harmful mutations in DNA would make life unsustainable over millions of years.​

Starlight and the Distant Universe​

If the universe is billions of years old, how can we see starlight from objects billions of light-years away?​

The assertion that young Earth creationists (YECs) often cherry-pick data, misunderstand or misrepresent scientific principles, and prioritize their interpretation of scripture over empirical evidence is a perspective shared by various scientists and scholars. For instance, an article from

The Natural Historian notes that YEC proponents "cherry pick, distort and misrepresent just as much real science as they need to in order to persuade their biblical literalist followers."​

The Natural Historian​

​

Additionally, a study published in Evolution: Education and Outreach analyzed creationist texts and found numerous fallacies, including misrepresentations of scientific data.​

Evolution Outreach​

These sources reflect the view that YEC arguments often selectively use or misinterpret scientific information to align with specific scriptural interpretations.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, I could be wrong so I went to Google Scholar to research what YEC's write about science. Here are the topics I found.

Radiometric Dating is Flawed​

The Earth's Magnetic Field is Decaying​

The Earth’s magnetic field is decaying too rapidly for the planet to be billions of years old.​

Dinosaur Soft Tissue Indicates a Young Earth​

Fossil Layers Were Laid Down During Noah’s Flood​

Genetic Entropy Suggests Life Cannot Be Old​

The accumulation of harmful mutations in DNA would make life unsustainable over millions of years.​

Starlight and the Distant Universe​

If the universe is billions of years old, how can we see starlight from objects billions of light-years away?​

Sounds like your're learning the truth about the creation that Jesus made.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

Chimney Rock likely hasn't always been a chimney. What we see
today is what's left of the original formation.

 

[Frank Robert]

Sounds like your're learning the truth about the creation that Jesus made.

You are presenting an opinion about creation to people who already agree with it. Since childhood, I have believed that God is the origin of the universe and everything within it, including the Earth.

 

[CrowCross]

You are presenting an opinion about creation to people who already agree with it. Since childhood, I have believed that God is the origin of the universe and everything within it, including the Earth.

You do know this same God made Adam from the dust then Eve from his rib.....which isn't anywhere near theo-evo-ism.

 

[CrowCross]

Chimney Rock likely hasn't always been a chimney. What we see
today is what's left of the original formation.

The original formation originally wasn't a formation....The formation appeared after the surrounding strada was removed when the flood waters receeded from the continent.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

The formation appeared after the surrounding strada [strata] was removed when
the flood waters receeded [receded] from the continent.

Anyway; in my opinion, the withdrawal of Noah's flood was too brief to cause
the amount of erosion you're talking about.
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