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Chiliasm ( Millennialism )

To be honest the Romans, even in Jesus's time, didn't *care* about Israel other than keeping it under a thumb. There was no animosity carried back to the beginning like Ismael. Maybe it's just my culture but the entire "It's just business" thing seems distinctly Roman.
 
Exactly. Do you see this is why the RC'c claim them as theirs? Eventually the Catholic church because a political power.

I've seen them attempt to do so, yes.

If you follow the history of the Christian church you will see the times the Catholic church broke away in numerous areas leading to its demise.

Roman Catholic

All the issues like purgatory, for example, hypostatic union, the pope, they were working through. Just because some agreed with purgatory or accepted a pope does not mean they were not Christian.

Doesn't it though?

What took them out of Christianity is their belief, men are saved by faith + works as far as I know. But their political power caused corruption.

Which is sorta the entire Pope/High Priest/priesthood thing being necessary for salvation. In a sense they attempted to put themselves into the place of Israel.

Hmmm...sounds familiar somehow. /ponder
 
Futurists simply hold that national, ethnic Israel still has a future role in God's story of redemption.

How that has the power to take peoples minds off the present in any substantial way I've no clue. Perhaps by denying other possible "ludicrous" systems like Amil and Postmil?

See how easy that is?
Of course national Israel still has a role to play, as does every other country. I also believe that there will be a massive revival in Israel, once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Futurism claims that the anti-Christ is some unknown figure in the future (although some say that he's alive now), rather than the office of "Pope" (and the latter Roman Caesars, before the office of "Pope" came to be). This has serious practical effects in people's lives.
 
Ok...stop there. List out all the promises God has made to Israel. Don't extend those promises to the church. I know it's hard but resist the temptation. You can extend the stuff that actually applies later but it doesn't, for one, include the land promises.

On second thought don't. Neither of us needs a fight.
I've no intention of getting into a fight.

The promises to Israel, were for the believers in Israel, although the unbelievers amongst them benefited from living with them. God's covenants are not with unbelievers.

Specific promises about land (mainly land in Canaan) were for national Israel (especially the believers). There's no issue with that.
 
So do I...except in the case of Rome. Italy doesn't fall within the range of the ancient enemies of Israel. So pinning Anti-Christ ( capital ) and false prophet on them seems a little...biased. Don't get me wrong...I'm not a fan of the RCC. At all. But Bible first.
Bible first - yes, definitely. Check the NC usage of God's temple. In the New Covenant, we (Jewish and Gentile believers) are the temple of God. The anti-Christ sits in the temple of God (i.e. the professing church), proclaiming that he is God. There is really only one candidate...
 
Of course national Israel still has a role to play, as does every other country. I also believe that there will be a massive revival in Israel, once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Futurism claims that the anti-Christ is some unknown figure in the future (although some say that he's alive now), rather than the office of "Pope" (and the latter Roman Caesars, before the office of "Pope" came to be). This has serious practical effects in people's lives.

I don't see it. I'd say claiming to know who the actual Anti-Christ is right now vs in the future is far more damaging if it damages anything at all. Keeping alert seems to be the best outlook. At best I see the "Pope" being the false prophet.

 
Bible first - yes, definitely. Check the NC usage of God's temple. In the New Covenant, we (Jewish and Gentile believers) are the temple of God. The anti-Christ sits in the temple of God (i.e. the professing church), proclaiming that he is God. There is really only one candidate...

It's an interesting interpretation. But I don't consider the RCC as part of the professing church. Any more than I include the Morman "church" or the JWs.
 
It's an interesting interpretation. But I don't consider the RCC as part of the professing church. Any more than I include the Morman "church" or the JWs.
The main difference between the RC organisation and the Mormons or JWs, is that the RCs believe in the Trinity and the deity of Christ. I know that they are very wrong on many other points, but at least they have that right.

Most RCs would call themselves Christians (and I'm sure that some are: ones who don't believe all the RC dogma and trust in Christ alone for salvation).
 
I don't see it. I'd say claiming to know who the actual Anti-Christ is right now vs in the future is far more damaging if it damages anything at all. Keeping alert seems to be the best outlook. At best I see the "Pope" being the false prophet.

Well, keeping alert is always good.

The Reformers (almost all of them) were certain who the anti-Christ is (the office of "Pope"), based on biblical prophecy.

I'd recommend "Romanism and the Reformation from the Standpoint of Prophecy", by H. Grattan Guinness, if you haven't read it already.
 
Well, keeping alert is always good.

The Reformers (almost all of them) were certain who the anti-Christ is (the office of "Pope"), based on biblical prophecy.

I'd recommend "Romanism and the Reformation from the Standpoint of Prophecy", by H. Grattan Guinness, if you haven't read it already.
I'm familiar with the Reformed position on the Pope and remain suspicious of ulterior motives. Not that I need any for the RCC...but I see nothing biblical ( prophecy or otherwise ) in dragging the Pope into the equation except for possibly the false prophet.
 
The main difference between the RC organisation and the Mormons or JWs, is that the RCs believe in the Trinity and the deity of Christ. I know that they are very wrong on many other points, but at least they have that right.

Most RCs would call themselves Christians (and I'm sure that some are: ones who don't believe all the RC dogma and trust in Christ alone for salvation).

I'm aware of what the RCC says and also what they actually teach. The two don't really join. In my eyes the RCC are just as polytheistic as the Mormons. The RCC has power to save. The believer has power to save. God is in there...somewhere. But they are synergistic which places man on equal footing with God.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian. Some of them might even be right...whether RCC or Protestant. But you cannot become a Christian based on what the RCC teaches.
 
I'm familiar with the Reformed position on the Pope and remain suspicious of ulterior motives. Not that I need any for the RCC...but I see nothing biblical ( prophecy or otherwise ) in dragging the Pope into the equation except for possibly the false prophet.
2 Thess. 2:3,4 (WPNT)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you by any means; because that day cannot come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of ruin,
4 who opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called a god or an object of worship, to the point of taking his seat as God in God’s sanctuary, proclaiming himself to be God.

The "Popes" claim that submission to them is necessary for salvation and that they can overrule what the Bible says, thus placing themselves above God and setting themselves against him.

They place themselves above kings and rulers of the Earth, who must bow down and kiss their ring in obeisance.

They have also changed times and seasons, as the Bible warns about.

RCism claims to be The Church and the "Pope" sits on a throne, as the head of it, making supposedly infallible pronouncements, thus taking the place of Christ.

One of the "Pope's" titles is "Vicar of Christ", which means "Instead of Christ" (i.e. antichrist).

They, as head of RCism, persecute, and proclaim as heretics, genuine Christians, having tortured and murdered millions, over many centuries (drunk with the blood of the saints).

The RC rulers are clothed in purple and scarlet.

They depict the RC organisation as a woman holding out a cup (a symbol of the Whore of Babylon).

The "Pope" is covered in pagan symbolism (e.g. fish-god Dagon mitre, the crooked crucifix (a satanic symbol) and many others).

The "Pope" has the title of "Pontifex Maximus" - a pagan title of Babylonian priests (meaning "Greatest Bridge-builder", in a religious sense - more blasphemy), passed on to the latter Roman Caesars (as god-men), then to the "Pope", as the continuation of Babylonian false religion.

The "Pope" is called "Holy Father" (a title belonging only to God the Father) - he truly has names of blasphemy.

The great confessions of faith: The Westminster Confession (created by Anglicans, but also adhered to by Presbyterians); and The 1689 Baptist Confession proclaim that the "Pope" is the anti-Christ.

There is much more evidence, but this should suffice to show that, if the office of "Pope" is not the anti-Christ, then he has the great misfortune of being so incredibly like him that it is impossible to tell the difference.
 
2 Thess. 2:3,4 (WPNT)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you by any means; because that day cannot come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of sin is revealed, the son of ruin,
4 who opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called a god or an object of worship, to the point of taking his seat as God in God’s sanctuary, proclaiming himself to be God.

You realize, of course, that for this to happen the Temple will need to be rebuilt ( by the Jews or the Pope? ) and, for some incredible reason, the "Pope" will need to enthrone himself as God in the Sanctuary over the dead bodies of the Jews...and likely the Muslims.

Just seems to be a touch out of character for the Pope.
 
You realize, of course, that for this to happen the Temple will need to be rebuilt ( by the Jews or the Pope? ) and, for some incredible reason, the "Pope" will need to enthrone himself as God in the Sanctuary over the dead bodies of the Jews...and likely the Muslims.

Just seems to be a touch out of character for the Pope.
Here's the New Covenant temple...

1 Cor. 3:16,17 (MKJV)
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

1 Cor. 6:19
(KJV) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Cor. 6:16 (MKJV) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

The body of Christ is the New Covenant temple/sanctuary. The "Pope" has already declared himself Lord over the body of Christ (a long, long time ago).
 
Here's the New Covenant temple...

1 Cor. 3:16,17 (MKJV)
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God shall destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

1 Cor. 6:19
(KJV) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Cor. 6:16 (MKJV) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

The body of Christ is the New Covenant temple/sanctuary. The "Pope" has already declared himself Lord over the body of Christ (a long, long time ago).

And it's for stuff like this I don't subscribe too Covenantalism. Let's just erase God's people and God's city. Let's just ignore all the history, promises, emphasis, and prophecy concerning it. Nope. Can't do it. Seems a little dangerous to me considering a literal reading works just as well if not better.

Now I do agree with the Scripture in that we, the church, are the body of Christ. And a temple to the Holy Spirit. But I'm not going to take the incredible leap that somehow the Pope is going to defile a spiritual Temple guarded by the Spirit of God.

Not to mention removing Israel and the actual temple is such an RCC thing to do.
 
And it's for stuff like this I don't subscribe too Covenantalism. Let's just erase God's people and God's city. Let's just ignore all the history, promises, emphasis, and prophecy concerning it. Nope. Can't do it. Seems a little dangerous to me considering a literal reading works just as well if not better.

Now I do agree with the Scripture in that we, the church, are the body of Christ. And a temple to the Holy Spirit. But I'm not going to take the incredible leap that somehow the Pope is going to defile a spiritual Temple guarded by the Spirit of God.

Not to mention removing Israel and the actual temple is such an RCC thing to do.
The stone temple was removed in 70 A.D.. The only temple left for God's people is the spiritual temple of our bodies.

The great apostasy happened some time in the first four centuries A.D., after which the Man of Sin was revealed, following the fall of the Roman Empire (he had been restrained by the existence of the Roman Empire - the ECFs testify that the restrainer was the Roman Empire).
 
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