CrazyCalvinistUncle
Senior
A gentle message too ReverendRV and my beloved Amil folks.
Be good.
Be good.
Thanks for participating brother. I don't see why I should write to him about it; I'll write it here...I'd love to hear of you writing him and what his response is, Rev.
And, God not being finished with Israel is consistent with Amil and Postmil positions, just not in the same way.Thanks for participating brother. I don't see why I should write to him about it; I'll write it here...
Jim presented the last few chapters of Revelation as one consistent event, that shouldn't have Versification. Let's use an arbitrary number; perhaps all of this could happen in a day. But the Passage included Satan being bound for a thousand years; in the one Account. Therefore, I don't think this can be said to be a consistent, unbroken Narrative...
Versification can be said to be Relative, I agree with that. If someone changed the Chapter and Verses, perhaps they can start a Chapter when Satan is Bound, and end this chapter when Satan is released. This too, would be Relative Versification; but it would seem clear that it is a Thousand Year long Chapter...
Since it's clear that it took a Thousand Years to pass in just the space of a few Verses, I don't think we should read the Passage Jim read; as an event taking place as if there are no proper breaks in it: without Gaps in it...
But like I said, I am looking for Positive reasons to believe an Eschatology, no matter which Eschatology it is. Your point that God is not done with Israel, is a great point for Premillenial Dispensational Eschatology. Jim's point that a Chapter break shouldn't be where it is, is just a point; not a great point. Since more, smaller Chapter breaks could exist, that's not a good reason to want to rid the Bible of a Chapter break. I'm not saying that's what Jim wants to do, to help Jim make his Case; but that's what Jim wants to do...
Would you like to go to my Thread here, and offer Positive Reasons Amillenialism teaches God is not through with Israel? That's kind of what I'm looking for; and what I need...And, God not being finished with Israel is consistent with Amil and Postmil positions, just not in the same way.
What was Jim's entire point about reading through Rev 19-21ish, Rev? It's to establish a timeline and prove that the chronology was not shifted or changed. Chapter 20 comes after chapter 19.Thanks for participating brother. I don't see why I should write to him about it; I'll write it here...
Jim presented the last few chapters of Revelation as one consistent event, that shouldn't have Versification. Let's use an arbitrary number; perhaps all of this could happen in a day. But the Passage included Satan being bound for a thousand years; in the one Account. Therefore, I don't think this can be said to be a consistent, unbroken Narrative...
Versification can be said to be Relative, I agree with that. If someone changed the Chapter and Verses, perhaps they can start a Chapter when Satan is Bound, and end this chapter when Satan is released. This too, would be Relative Versification; but it would seem clear that it is a Thousand Year long Chapter...
Since it's clear that it took a Thousand Years to pass in just the space of a few Verses, I don't think we should read the Passage Jim read; as an event taking place as if there are no proper breaks in it: without Gaps in it...
But like I said, I am looking for Positive reasons to believe an Eschatology, no matter which Eschatology it is. Your point that God is not done with Israel, is a great point for Premillenial Dispensational Eschatology. Jim's point that a Chapter break shouldn't be where it is, is just a point; not a great point. Since more, smaller Chapter breaks could exist, that's not a good reason to want to rid the Bible of a Chapter break. I'm not saying that's what Jim wants to do, to help Jim make his Case; but that's what Jim wants to do...
Horsefeathers. The moment you substitute the church for Israel this is a moot point. God either keeps all of his promises to the people He makes the promises too or none of us have any hope.And, God not being finished with Israel is consistent with Amil and Postmil positions, just not in the same way.
Thanks for participating brother. I don't see why I should write to him about it; I'll write it here...
I'm talking to you Brother, you're not deadOf course you do. You just don't want too. It's much easier to deal with old dead folks that don't talk back.
I don't disagree with Jim and his premise. You do...so the issue lies there. The way to iron out that issue is to have an honest discussion with the author.I'm talking to you Brother, you're not dead
By the way, thanks for coming back...I don't disagree with Jim and his premise. You do...so the issue lies there. The way to iron out that issue is to have an honest discussion with the author.
Not sure if I am "back". Just have points that come to mind that you and others offered in good faith. In reviewing my "notes" there is stuff I can contribute and *not* argue about.By the way, thanks for coming back...
You'll be glad to know that there are horses with feathered feet!Horsefeathers. The moment you substitute the church for Israel this is a moot point. God either keeps all of his promises to the people He makes the promises too or none of us have any hope.
Which immediately causes two major problems...First that the "church" as "Spiritual Israel" ( no such critter in Scripture ) is under a curse for the sake of...itself ( Romans 11 )? Second that it completely erases physical ethnic Israel and the promises that God has made specifically to them. So that particular horse won't run for me.You'll be glad to know that there are horses with feathered feet!
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Salvation has always been to those believe in the Messiah. When Gentiles believe, they are added to spiritual Israel, which is the root.
Salvation is of the Jews, as Jesus said, and that has not changed; however, the wall of partition has been broken down, so that saved Jews and Gentiles are now all part of the one body. At the moment, that body is mainly comprised of ex-Gentiles (there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the New Covenant); but, when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, the fulness of the Jews will also come in and so all Israel will be saved (all elect Jews and all elect Gentiles).
Now, physical Israel has returned, as we all know; but, salvation is only found in spiritual Israel, which is, at the moment, a small remnant of "Messianic Jews" and a lot of Gentiles.
They are not all Israel who are of Israel.Which immediately causes two major problems...First that the "church" as "Spiritual Israel" ( no such critter in Scripture ) is under a curse for the sake of...itself ( Romans 11 )? Second that it completely erases physical ethnic Israel and the promises that God has made specifically to them. So that particular horse won't run for me.
They are not all Israel who are of Israel.
Rom. 9:6 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
I have read much on eschatological systems. I was pre-mil years ago, but from study I am Amil. I believe both systems are Christian systems. When I do have the time I will read what you presented here. I kinda have to be in the mood to read on these things, I literally burnt myself out for a while on the subject from a long study. I found when studying into these things with scripture it's like never ending almost. It's pretty in-depth. And when all is said and done, it's not a salvational issue. This is probably why many reformers and theologians like Spurgeon or Calvin, I don't think they taught much about these things. Though I could be wrong.Carbon and Rev...see? See?! Every single time.
Page 57 and onward. Or start at the beginning, David.
I feel you, David. No rush. For the most part the reformers were concerned with Soteriology and Ecclesiology ( from what I understand ). Eschatology not so much. There are, again from what I remember reading, great swaths of stuff that were by necessity imported whole cloth from the RCC. By necessity I mean "running for their lives half the time".I have read much on eschatological systems. I was pre-mil years ago, but from study I am Amil. I believe both systems are Christian systems. When I do have the time I will read what you presented here. I kinda have to be in the mood to read on these things, I literally burnt myself out for a while on the subject from a long study. I found when studying into these things with scripture it's like never ending almost. It's pretty in-depth. And when all is said and done, it's not a salvational issue. This is probably why many reformers and theologians like Spurgeon or Calvin, I don't think they taught much about these things. Though I could be wrong.