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Can We Determine the Age of the Universe and Earth Biblically?

Are you ever going to show me the verses that say the earth had other people on it besides Adam and Eve????????????

Honestly, settle down.

I am not the only one who notices you ignoring my refutation of your claim about Genesis 2:5. The silence is deafening.

Also, allow me to reproduce here my response to you elsewhere:

Question: Does the Bible say there were other people on Earth?

Answer: No.

Question: Does the Bible say that Adam and Eve were the only people on Earth?

Answer: No.​
 
Honestly, settle down.

I am not the only one who notices you ignoring my refutation of your claim about Genesis 2:5. The silence is deafening.

Also, allow me to reproduce here my response to you elsewhere:
Question: Does the Bible say there were other people on Earth?​
Answer: No.​
Question: Does the Bible say that Adam and Eve were the only people on Earth?​
Answer: No.​
Question: Does the bible say the moon isn't made of cheese?

Answer. No.
 
Question: Does the bible say the moon isn't made of cheese?

Answer. No.

See the language notes in #155. The Hebrew expression is 'to swarm in swarms.' I don't think that could refer to two people having 1-2 children each year. There were others. Genesis has a redemptive narrative to communicate and can't stop to answer everything.
 
Question: Does the bible say the moon isn't made of cheese?

Answer. No.
You know, if the Bible had a passage that (poetically) said that the Moon is made of cheese, I'm sure many would take it literally, and decide that any evidence that the Moon isn't made of cheese has to be a hoax.

Fallible humans can be mistaken about what we see in nature. The evidence might not be what we think it is. But similarly, fallible humans can be mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. We see conflicting interpretations of many passages in the Bible, and those conflicting interpretations can't all be right. Interpretations of scripture and observations of nature should ultimately not conflict. One or both should be adjusted until the conflict is resolved. We can see through observations of the Moon and the study of Moon rocks that the Moon isn't made of cheese, so if the Bible poetically described the Moon as being made of cheese, we could assume that it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

There are people who believe that the Moon generates its own light, due to scripture. We can check that. No, the Moon reflects the Sun's light. It doesn't generate its own light. Now, our observations could be in error, but considering the overwhelming evidence, it's much easier to conclude that the interpretation of the scripture is flawed.

Evidence suggests that humans were around much longer than 6,000 years. But many would say that can't be, because their interpretation of scripture limits that age of the Earth to about 6,000 years. If the Bible doesn't say that humans couldn't have existed before Adam and Eve, perhaps the interpretation could be adjusted to allow for early humans. Scriptural interpretations shouldn't be used to define reality. What we see in the universe at large needs to be reconciled with what we read.
 
You know, if the Bible had a passage that (poetically) said that the Moon is made of cheese, I'm sure many would take it literally, and decide that any evidence that the Moon isn't made of cheese has to be a hoax.

Fallible humans can be mistaken about what we see in nature. The evidence might not be what we think it is. But similarly, fallible humans can be mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. We see conflicting interpretations of many passages in the Bible, and those conflicting interpretations can't all be right. Interpretations of scripture and observations of nature should ultimately not conflict. One or both should be adjusted until the conflict is resolved. We can see through observations of the Moon and the study of Moon rocks that the Moon isn't made of cheese, so if the Bible poetically described the Moon as being made of cheese, we could assume that it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

There are people who believe that the Moon generates its own light, due to scripture. We can check that. No, the Moon reflects the Sun's light. It doesn't generate its own light. Now, our observations could be in error, but considering the overwhelming evidence, it's much easier to conclude that the interpretation of the scripture is flawed.

Evidence suggests that humans were around much longer than 6,000 years. But many would say that can't be, because their interpretation of scripture limits that age of the Earth to about 6,000 years. If the Bible doesn't say that humans couldn't have existed before Adam and Eve, perhaps the interpretation could be adjusted to allow for early humans. Scriptural interpretations shouldn't be used to define reality. What we see in the universe at large needs to be reconciled with what we read.

There are several indicators of recentness of humans, maybe as far back as 10-15K. But it is a very different world. If your evidence does not include things like giantism, longevity, extraordinary skills, genetic engineering, then I'm not sure of its value.

Velikovsky also suggest the earth has been slowed, meaning, that in comparison with our years now, many 'years' took place in one. The slowing happened in a collision. The evidence of the collision is throughout our system.
 
You know, if the Bible had a passage that (poetically) said that the Moon is made of cheese, I'm sure many would take it literally, and decide that any evidence that the Moon isn't made of cheese has to be a hoax.

Fallible humans can be mistaken about what we see in nature. The evidence might not be what we think it is. But similarly, fallible humans can be mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. We see conflicting interpretations of many passages in the Bible, and those conflicting interpretations can't all be right. Interpretations of scripture and observations of nature should ultimately not conflict. One or both should be adjusted until the conflict is resolved. We can see through observations of the Moon and the study of Moon rocks that the Moon isn't made of cheese, so if the Bible poetically described the Moon as being made of cheese, we could assume that it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

There are people who believe that the Moon generates its own light, due to scripture. We can check that. No, the Moon reflects the Sun's light. It doesn't generate its own light. Now, our observations could be in error, but considering the overwhelming evidence, it's much easier to conclude that the interpretation of the scripture is flawed.

Evidence suggests that humans were around much longer than 6,000 years. But many would say that can't be, because their interpretation of scripture limits that age of the Earth to about 6,000 years. If the Bible doesn't say that humans couldn't have existed before Adam and Eve, perhaps the interpretation could be adjusted to allow for early humans. Scriptural interpretations shouldn't be used to define reality. What we see in the universe at large needs to be reconciled with what we read.
LOL....and the bible doesn't say the moon is made of cheese.

The bible doesn't say Adam and Eve evolved from lesser primates....it provides a different means for humans.
 
LOL....and the bible doesn't say the moon is made of cheese.

The bible doesn't say Adam and Eve evolved from lesser primates....it provides a different means for humans.
We should focus on what the Bible actually says, taking into account its literary, cultural and theological context. We should be careful not to limit its teaching by putting restrictions on the text that are not actually there. If the Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve were the only humans on the planet, then we can't assume that they were. This doesn't necessarily mean there were other people, but you can't rule it out either.
 
We should focus on what the Bible actually says, taking into account its literary, cultural and theological context. We should be careful not to limit its teaching by putting restrictions on the text that are not actually there. If the Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve were the only humans on the planet, then we can't assume that they were. This doesn't necessarily mean there were other people, but you can't rule it out either.
With all due respect...you're wrong.

4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORDbGod made them.

5Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.6But springsc welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being
 
Placing one couple who can have 1-2 kids every year is not exactly swarming and filling like God envisioned for the various realms (sky, land, water). So we must think that others were created, and I would say, even had their own dilemmas with evil.

Just for funsies...

Firstly why do you assume gestation the same for Eve as women today?
Secondly apparently twins were common among the Hebrews. Possibly more. Pharoah and his helpers were a little flummoxed over this.
Thirdly there was no prohibition against incest until much later. Apparently Adam was a very popular guy for a long time until enough sons were about.

Now you might say "Ewww" but that is the situation that God set up according to what we *know* from Scripture.

Carry on.
 
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

....The first man.

Will you now argue that after Adam was created.....a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc man was made and populated the earth somewhere else?
If that be the case then how could Eve be the mother of all?
 
With all due respect...you're wrong.

4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORDbGod made them.

5Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground.6But springsc welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

7Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being
Genesis 2 is not talking about the material (biological) origins of Adam or anyone else. It is talking about the role and function, or lack thereof, in the sacred space of the Garden in Eden.
 
LOL....and the bible doesn't say the moon is made of cheese.

The bible doesn't say Adam and Eve evolved from lesser primates....it provides a different means for humans.
Well, that doesn't really address what I was talking about. But that's okay, I just wanted to make the point. People can take it or leave it.
 
Genesis 2 is not talking about the material (biological) origins of Adam or anyone else. It is talking about the role and function, or lack thereof, in the sacred space of the Garden in Eden.

Yes and is another POV from ch 1. It doesn't have the same intention. But then it does come back to the material, see the next.

I have found this to be interesting though: that God speaks things into existence, but then later we find him shaping them. Even 2 Peter 3 says the earth was formed through water and by water, so God's verbal command made things happen even when materials were already there. Gen 2 has man formed from the ground, but in a moment, it seems.
 
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

....The first man.

Will you now argue that after Adam was created.....a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc man was made and populated the earth somewhere else?
If that be the case then how could Eve be the mother of all?

We need to remember that the creation week already includes events that suspend or supercede the natural ongoing process.
 
Genesis 2 is not talking about the material (biological) origins of Adam or anyone else. It is talking about the role and function, or lack thereof, in the sacred space of the Garden in Eden.
Biblical reference please...or retract.
 
We need to remember that the creation week already includes events that suspend or supercede the natural ongoing process.
Well, the creation act was a supernatural event. I don't disagree there.
 
Biblical reference please...or retract.
The biblical reference is Genesis 2 - that is after all what we are talking about - but I refer to the original context of the passage, not through the lens of modern day.
If you are asking me to support for my understanding of Genesis 2, this isn't something that can be answered quickly and I am short on time today. But rest assured that I will certainly respond.
 
With all due respect...you're wrong.

[Quoting Genesis 2:4-7]

(4) This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them. (5) Now no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, nor had any plant of the field sprouted; for the LORD God had not yet sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. (6) But springs welled up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. (7) Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.​

In his zeal when defending his view, @CrowCross fails to take into consideration that there was an entire planet beyond the ground to which Genesis 2:5 refers. I think we can all agree that the Bible clearly says there was nobody in Eden at the time.
 
Fallible humans can be mistaken about what we see in nature; the evidence might not be what we think it is. But, similarly, fallible humans can be mistaken in their interpretations of scripture. We see conflicting interpretations of many passages in the Bible, and those conflicting interpretations can't all be right. Interpretations of scripture and observations of nature should ultimately not conflict. One or both should be adjusted until the conflict is resolved. ... Scriptural interpretations shouldn't be used to define reality. What we see in the universe at large needs to be reconciled with what we read.

I have made a couple of observations about young-earth creationists during conversations and debates with them. First, they are renowned for emphasizing a plain and straight-forward reading of scriptures and criticizing the contortions that old-earth interpretations can put biblical data through. However, they seem oblivious to the fact that they are guilty of exactly the same thing, only in reverse. They never equally emphasize a plain and straight-forward reading of nature and are unconcerned about the contortions that young-earth interpretations can put empirical data through.

Be it resolved among Christians: God is the one and same author of both scripture and nature—a theological fact that young-earth creationists seem happy to admit but quick to forget. It is even stated explicitly in the confessional standards of the Reformed faith, commonly a bastion of young-earth creationism: Article 2 of the Belgic Confession of Faith says, in part, that one of the means by which we know God is "by the creation, preservation, and government of the universe, since that universe is before our eyes like a beautiful book in which all creatures, great and small, are as letters to make us ponder the invisible things of God." As Cornelius Van Til said (1946 [PDF]), so eloquently and astutely, "God's revelation in nature, together with God's revelation in Scripture, form God's one grand scheme of covenant revelation of himself to man. The two forms of revelation must therefore be seen as presupposing and supplementing one another."

Second, they claim that to deny young-earth creationism is to deny scripture, or they accuse old-earth creationists of denying or contradicting scripture, statements which expose a degree of hubris that is difficult to believe—for it shows they have conflated a human interpretation (young-earth creationism) with divine revelation (scripture). In reality, what old-earth creationists are denying or contradicting is a fallible human interpretation that they're convinced is wrong, and by denying young-earth creationism one has not denied scripture.


There are people who believe that the moon generates its own light, due to scripture. We can check that. No, the moon reflects the sun's light. It doesn't generate its own light. Now, our observations could be in error, but considering the overwhelming evidence, it's much easier to conclude that the interpretation of the scripture is flawed.

I really appreciate something John Frame wrote in The Doctrine of God (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 2002), p. 303: "We should not assume at the outset that the scientists are wrong; it is also possible that our interpretation of scripture is wrong—though it is not possible for scripture itself to be wrong."
 
Biblical reference please...or retract.
When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist[ was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground— then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. Genesis 2:5-7

Genesis is an ancient document and needs to be read as such. We must remember it was written in Hebrew and not English and therefore we need to try to understand what the Hebrew text is saying. Now I am not a Hebrew scholar, so I rely on my understanding from scholars who are trained in this ancient language. Others may disagree with my understanding of the Hebrew that I present here, and that is fine. I am here to learn and am happy to be corrected.

I claimed that Genesis 2 is not talking about material (biological) origins. Let’s look at Genesis 2:7. In English it seems obvious to see it as talking about the material origins of Adam. But what does the Hebrew actually say?

Let’s start with the word ‘formed’. In Hebrew, the word used is ‘ysr’. This word is used 42 times in the Old Testament and it is often used in a nonmaterial way:
  • Events being formed (sometimes translated as planned) – e.g. 2 Kings 19:25
  • God forms the heart (not the physical heart, but referring to thoughts and inclinations) – e.g. Ps 33:15
  • God formed the summer and winter – e.g. Ps 74:17
  • God forms the human spirit within a person – e.g. Zechariah 12:1
This Hebrew word has been translated in other places as prepare, ordain or decree. So as you can see it is not necessary to read it as referring to material creation. But the context will help work it out, so let’s keep moving.

(continue in next post ... )
 
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