Can We Determine the Age of the Universe and Earth Biblically?

[CrowCross]

I'm saying the narrative does not show how the others were in place but says they were. The narrative could have focused on one porpoise, too, and what its first day was like, but instead mentioned all creatures were 'swarming with swarms.' The narrative is about mankind and how he would be redeemed. When the narrative transitions from the world focus of 1-11 to Israel in ch 12, the term 'seed' connects the two sections as the focus.

The question typically comes down to....where did Cain get his wife. The "Genesis didn't happen sect" likes to say God used evolutionism as a means of creating a population....some say in parallel to the creation of Adam and Eve or Adam and Eve were selected from the population.

The true biblical answer is Adam and Eve had children.......and those children had children who also had children...and so on.
From these other children Cain chose a wife.

 

[EarlyActs]

The question typically comes down to....where did Cain get his wife. The "Genesis didn't happen sect" likes to say God used evolutionism as a means of creating a population....some say in parallel to the creation of Adam and Eve or Adam and Eve were selected from the population.

The true biblical answer is Adam and Eve had children.......and those children had children who also had children...and so on.
From these other children Cain chose a wife.

I don't know how you can swarm without others being created at the same time; that's God speaking all of it into existence (is anyone reminded of the feeding of the 5K or one of the fishing miracles?). But of course, I don't want to preclude suspension of natural process either: there could have been miracles in the creation week that brought it to full operating capacity immediately. Which it was. The earth was teeming immediately.

The miracles of Jesus have this beautiful limitedness to them, in which he does something exactly like an OT account, but on a small, observable, 'safe' scale!

 

[CrowCross]

I don't know how you can swarm without others being created at the same time; that's God speaking all of it into existence (is anyone reminded of the feeding of the 5K or one of the fishing miracles?). But of course, I don't want to preclude suspension of natural process either: there could have been miracles in the creation week that brought it to full operating capacity immediately. Which it was. The earth was teeming immediately.

The miracles of Jesus have this beautiful limitedness to them, in which he does something exactly like an OT account, but on a small, observable, 'safe' scale!

The bible doesn't teach the earth was teeming with people when Adam and Eve were created.

If so, please present the verse.

 

[Sereni-tea]

The question typically comes down to....where did Cain get his wife. The "Genesis didn't happen sect" likes to say God used evolutionism as a means of creating a population....some say in parallel to the creation of Adam and Eve or Adam and Eve were selected from the population.

The true biblical answer is Adam and Eve had children.......and those children had children who also had children...and so on.
From these other children Cain chose a wife.

When interpreting the Bible we need to be consistent.

You have asked:

Why is it no one has presented a verse that claims there was a population around when Adam was created????

You are right in that there are no verses that explicitly state that there were other people contemporary with Adam and Eve. By your logic therefore that means there were no other humans apart from Adam and Eve. However, if we apply your logic consistently to Genesis, then we run into problems very quickly.

For example in Genesis 4:14, after being cursed by God, Cain says: I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. Who are these other people? So far, only Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel (who is not dead) have been mentioned. The only people left are his parents. It is hard to justify that they are the ones he is referring to given the language used. Then in verse 17 we have Cain taking a wife. But still there is no mention of other people. Yet you claim the wife is his sister. Where is a verse that shows Adam and Eve had a daughter at that point? They are not mentioned until the next chapter.

I am not saying this to try to be smart, or offensive or anything like that. I am trying to show you that your interpretation of these early chapters of Genesis is inconsistent. I want to help you see that when reading Scripture we need to be very careful about bringing our own modern-day assumptions into this ancient text. We must read the text for what it is saying, in its original context and not put limitations on the text where there is none. The text does not explicitly mention other people with Adam and Eve, but you can't rule it out based on that alone. In the same way, the text doesn't mention that Adam and Eve had a daughter at that point for Cain to marry, but you can't rule it out either.

When I was challenged about this some years ago, I didn't realise how many assumptions I was actually making. And learning to put them aside and read the text for what it is was really hard. But when I did, I found the text actually showed such deep theology that it was breath-taking.

 

[EarlyActs]

The bible doesn't teach the earth was teeming with people when Adam and Eve were created.

If so, please present the verse.

How do you fill the earth like the animals were also commanded, 1-2 kids per year. When Gen 1 speaks to male and female, are there only Adam and Eve to talk to? Compare again to the animals. Certainly it must be a plurality, and the detailed story of Adam and Eve is later.

To be technical, it wouldn't be teeming immediately (length of pregnancy) and it would not have been just Adam and Eve spoken to about filling the earth. I think we can dismiss the idea that they were the only ones there ever.

 

[CrowCross]

For example in Genesis 4:14, after being cursed by God, Cain says: I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me. Who are these other people? So far, only Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel (who is not dead) have been mentioned.

This argument was put to rest a long, long time ago .....Cains wife would have been one of his cousins somewhere down the family tree.

Keep in mind the bible says Adam had other sons and daughters...who would have had children, who would have had children...and so on.

 

[CrowCross]

How do you fill the earth like the animals were also commanded, 1-2 kids per year. When Gen 1 speaks to male and female, are there only Adam and Eve to talk to? Compare again to the animals. Certainly it must be a plurality, and the detailed story of Adam and Eve is later.

To be technical, it wouldn't be teeming immediately (length of pregnancy) and it would not have been just Adam and Eve spoken to about filling the earth. I think we can dismiss the idea that they were the only ones there ever.

I've been asking for a verse...and so far no one has presented a verse. As I said in a previous verse...NO ONE.
If there were others around when A&E were created then Eve could not have been the mother of all the people. Your theology contradicts scripture.

 

[Sereni-tea]

This argument was put to rest a long, long time ago .....Cains wife would have been one of his cousins somewhere down the family tree.

Keep in mind the bible says Adam had other sons and daughters...who would have had children, who would have had children...and so on.

You either didn't read what I said, or didn't understand it. So I will try again.

You say there was no other people around with Adam and Eve because there is no verse that explicitly indicates their existence. However, applying that same logic to chapter 4 in Genesis, we need to explain who Cain was afraid of and who he married, since at that point in time there was no one else mentioned as existing apart from Adam, Eve Cain and Abel (who is dead). Yes, Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters but only after this passage. If, in your logic, the absence of a verse in the first instance precludes the possibility that there were other people around, then surely the absence of a verse in the second and third instances means the same?

 

[CrowCross]

You either didn't read what I said, or didn't understand it. So I will try again.

You say there was no other people around with Adam and Eve because there is no verse that explicitly indicates their existence. However, applying that same logic to chapter 4 in Genesis, we need to explain who Cain was afraid of and who he married, since at that point in time there was no one else mentioned as existing apart from Adam, Eve Cain and Abel (who is dead). Yes, Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters but only after this passage. If, in your logic, the absence of a verse in the first instance precludes the possibility that there were other people around, then surely the absence of a verse in the second and third instances means the same?

At the time Abel was murdered by Cain...they were full grown. It's a pretty good ...logical...guess Adam and Eve had other children by then. After all the bible...not speculation...tells us A&E had other sons and daughters. As we know Adam was 130 years old when Seth who was born and appointed in the place of Able. Even if Adam and Eve were 100 years old when Abel was killed and waited 30 years to have Seth They could easily have had many children....who would have been old enough to have many children who would have also been old enough to have many children.
To suggest Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters but only after Cain killed Abel doesn't make much sense.

So, once again where is the verse that says there was a separate population on the earth that were not of Adams progeny.

 

[EarlyActs]

This argument was put to rest a long, long time ago .....Cains wife would have been one of his cousins somewhere down the family tree.

Keep in mind the bible says Adam had other sons and daughters...who would have had children, who would have had children...and so on.

Other people could have been created so that the earth would 'swarm with swarms' and be filled.

 

[EarlyActs]

I've been asking for a verse...and so far no one has presented a verse. As I said in a previous verse...NO ONE.
If there were others around when A&E were created then Eve could not have been the mother of all the people. Your theology contradicts scripture.

Compare the same language about the other creatures 'swarming with swarms'. It doesn't have to be in an an exact verse, you know. You are allowed to apply logic.

The others could have been created shortly after. The title might be less formal than you think; it might be a title for each family's matriarch. For some reason, the important thing about the name is actually that it is not a female serpent goddess as the mother of life, say new comments in NET. That could apply to all.

Genesis is not as concerned about exact chronology as it is about the event in a pericope, see 4:25-26. Lots of compression! Notice how there are nations in ch 4 in that those names become country names.

Notice the construction of a city, yet the narrative is just getting to the replacement for Abel...

 

[CrowCross]

Other people could have been created so that the earth would 'swarm with swarms' and be filled.

Well, that was day 5.

20 And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures,
verse 21 goes on to say...."with which the waters swarm,"

Perhaps there was a swarm of mermaids.

 

[CrowCross]

Compare the same language about the other creatures 'swarming with swarms'. It doesn't have to be in an an exact verse, you know. You are allowed to apply logic.

Would this be your population of mermaids? Swarming in the water?

The others could have been created shortly after. The title might be less formal than you think; it might be a title for each family's matriarch. For some reason, the important thing about the name is actually that it is not a female serpent goddess as the mother of life, say new comments in NET. That could apply to all.

"Could have been" Your belief is based upon a "could have been"...not the bible.

Genesis is not as concerned about exact chronology as it is about the event in a pericope, see 4:25-26. Lots of compression! Notice how there are nations in ch 4 in that those names become country names.

Notice the construction of a city, yet the narrative is just getting to the replacement for Abel...

This doesn't show there were swarms of people that existed when Adam was created.

 

[Sereni-tea]

At the time Abel was murdered by Cain...they were full grown. It's a pretty good ...logical...guess Adam and Eve had other children by then. After all the bible...not speculation...tells us A&E had other sons and daughters. As we know Adam was 130 years old when Seth who was born and appointed in the place of Able. Even if Adam and Eve were 100 years old when Abel was killed and waited 30 years to have Seth They could easily have had many children....who would have been old enough to have many children who would have also been old enough to have many children.
To suggest Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters but only after Cain killed Abel doesn't make much sense.

I agree, it doesn't make much sense - that after all was my point. But this is the same logic you use - if something isn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist (i.e. why you deny the possibility that anyone else was around with Adam and Eve).

So, once again where is the verse that says there was a separate population on the earth that were not of Adams progeny.

So I need a verse to support my 'logical' assumption that there were other people around at the same time as Adam and Eve despite the Bible not mentioning them at that time but you don't need one to assume your 'logical' view that Adam and Eve had other children despite the Bible not mentioning them at that time. Isn't this a double standard?

 

[CrowCross]

I agree, it doesn't make much sense - that after all was my point. But this is the same logic you use - if something isn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist (i.e. why you deny the possibility that anyone else was around with Adam and Eve).

So, you honestly think when God has Moses write Genesis if there was an evolved population already present on earth Moses would have left that out???
The account in Genesis was built around the narrative of Adam being the first person...and supported in the New Testament...Thats what Moses presented.

But, because you believe in evo-ism you need to find a way to add to scripture and invent an evolving population.

I presented you biblical facts...Adam and Eve were the first...Eve was mother of all...Cain killed Able....Adam and Eve had other children who also had children who also had children....This is all biblical fact...something that can be supported by bible verses.
The bible mentions NO OTHER POPULATION being around when Adam and Eve were created in Gods image.....So, where did Cain get his bride? The answer is obvious...one of A&E's offspring.

So I need a verse to support my 'logical' assumption that there were other people around at the same time as Adam and Eve despite the Bible not mentioning them at that time but you don't need one to assume your 'logical' view that Adam and Eve had other children despite the Bible not mentioning them at that time. Isn't this a double standard?

The bible says Adam and Eve had other children...THOSE WORDS ARE IN the Bible. On the other hand your "population" isn't.
Soooooooooooo, should I go by the bible or your so-called logical speculation? As for me I'm sticking with the Bible.

I'm curious...you've added to Genesis and twisted it around...what else have you added to and twisted around?

 

[Sereni-tea]

So, you honestly think when God has Moses write Genesis if there was an evolved population already present on earth Moses would have left that out???
The account in Genesis was built around the narrative of Adam being the first person...and supported in the New Testament...Thats what Moses presented.

But, because you believe in evo-ism you need to find a way to add to scripture and invent an evolving population.

Once again, I am not an advocate for evolution. On this issue I am undecided.

Please try to understand what I am and am not saying. Yes, I believe Adam is our representative - the Bible presents him in this way. I completely support that and have never said otherwise.

I presented you biblical facts...Adam and Eve were the first...Eve was mother of all...Cain killed Able....Adam and Eve had other children who also had children who also had children....This is all biblical fact...something that can be supported by bible verses.
The bible mentions NO OTHER POPULATION being around when Adam and Eve were created in Gods image.....So, where did Cain get his bride? The answer is obvious...one of A&E's offspring.

The bible says Adam and Eve had other children...THOSE WORDS ARE IN the Bible. On the other hand your "population" isn't.
Soooooooooooo, should I go by the bible or your so-called logical speculation? As for me I'm sticking with the Bible.

I'm curious...you've added to Genesis and twisted it around...what else have you added to and twisted around?

You have completely missed my point and are accusing me of all sorts of things. I am trying to present what Scripture actually says in Genesis and what it does say. I have tried to point out the holes in your logic and how you are doing the same thing you are complaining about me doing.

You assume that Adam and Eve had other children before Cain was banished - but the text does not say that.
You assume that those Cain was frightened of was his own family - but the text does not say that.
You assume that Cain married his sister or another offspring of Adam and Eve - but the text does not say that.
Of course this could all be completely correct - but Scripture doesn't actually say that it is.

In my understanding of Scripture, I do not see that contemporaries of Adam and Eve are ruled out, so I allow for the option that they exist. As others have pointed out it does not in any way preclude Adam and Eve still being our representatives.

Remember absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because something is not mentioned does not mean we can rule it out. If we do we are putting limitations on the text that may not have been intended. This is the point I am trying to make clear.

 

[CrowCross]

Once again, I am not an advocate for evolution. On this issue I am undecided.

Please try to understand what I am and am not saying. Yes, I believe Adam is our representative - the Bible presents him in this way. I completely support that and have never said otherwise.


You have completely missed my point and are accusing me of all sorts of things. I am trying to present what Scripture actually says in Genesis and what it does say. I have tried to point out the holes in your logic and how you are doing the same thing you are complaining about me doing.

Scripture actually says there was a population when Adam was created?

You assume that Adam and Eve had other children before Cain was banished - but the text does not say that.

Yes it does.

You assume that those Cain was frightened of was his own family - but the text does not say that.

Yes it does

You assume that Cain married his sister or another offspring of Adam and Eve - but the text does not say that.

Yes it does.

Of course this could all be completely correct - but Scripture doesn't actually say that it is.

In my understanding of Scripture, I do not see that contemporaries of Adam and Eve are ruled out, so I allow for the option that they exist. As others have pointed out it does not in any way preclude Adam and Eve still being our representatives.

Remember absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because something is not mentioned does not mean we can rule it out. If we do we are putting limitations on the text that may not have been intended. This is the point I am trying to make clear.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Scripture actually says there was a population when Adam was created?

Yes it does.


Yes it does

Yes it does.

No, the text does not say there were other people around with Adam, but it doesn't say there weren't either. That is my point.

Show me where the Bible says Adam and Eve had other children (besides Abel) before Cain was banished. It mentions them in the next chapter, sure, but it doesn't specify whether that was before or after his banishment, or before or after he took a wife. That doesn't mean there weren't any, but neither does it mean there were.

Genesis 4:14 says: "Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”
The verse says whoever, not my family.

Show me where Scripture specifies that Cain married his sister (or another descendent of Adam).

 

[makesends]

Any explanation for this verse must account for both the light and darkness.
Scripture says the light was called day and the darkness night. Day is when the light from the sun is on our part of the planet. Darkness is when the sun isn't on our part of the planet.
In your example of Rev21:23, Apart from the fact that this is bringing something foreign into the text, God's light is never called Day. Also would that mean God was absent during nighttime? If you are going to read the passage in a 'straight-forward' way you have to be consistent.
To say the light is something else but the Sun isn't created until day 4, is trying to read into Scripture what isn't there.

His notion is as valid as just about any other. God can hide his face and show his face. Your rebuke seems to me to demonstrate a stronger dependency on temporal notions than the subject warrants.

 

[makesends]

Scripture actually says there was a population when Adam was created?

Yes it does.


Yes it does

Yes it does.

No, it doesn't.