Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[makesends]

You have read into scripture here by presenting right and power as equivalents, and they are not. Only the KJV translates exousian as "power", and even then it is not being used to say that the power of decision for salvation is granted as you imply. Here is a breakdown of the word from ChatGPT

Word Study:​

1.​

• Lexical Form: ἐξουσία
• Parsing:
  • Case: Accusative
  • Gender: Feminine
  • Number: Singular
• Used as: Object of the verb ἔδωκεν ("he gave")

---

2.​

ἐξουσία is commonly translated as:

• Authority
• Right
• Power
• Liberty
• Jurisdiction (in legal contexts)

Basic sense:​

---

3.​

In this context, ἐξουσίαν refers to:


This is not raw power (as in physical might), but authorized status — like having citizenship papers, adoption rights, or legal entitlement. It means those who believe are legally and relationally given the standing of God’s children.

---

4.​

• The verse does not say people already are God's children by nature.
• Rather, those who receive Christ are granted this right/authority to become children of God — it is graciously given, not naturally held.
• It ties into new birth, adoption, and justification themes.

---

end of ChatGPT

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Has nothing to do with what they did, what Christ did for them.

Thats not what John said

it says they received him..

They have eternal redemption because God received Christs Offering and delivered them from the penalty of sin. Has nothing to do with what they did, their receiving didn't do it, their believing didn't do it.

your right. their believeing did not do it. God did

But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.

In the end. God gets all the glory.

Man gets non.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You have read into scripture here by presenting right and power as equivalents, and they are not. Only the KJV translates exousian as "power", and even then it is not being used to say that the power of decision for salvation is granted as you imply. Here is a breakdown of the word from ChatGPT

Word Study:​

1.​

• Lexical Form: ἐξουσία
• Parsing:
  • Case: Accusative
  • Gender: Feminine
  • Number: Singular
• Used as: Object of the verb ἔδωκεν ("he gave")

---

2.​

ἐξουσία is commonly translated as:

• Authority
• Right
• Power
• Liberty
• Jurisdiction (in legal contexts)

Basic sense:​

---

3.​

In this context, ἐξουσίαν refers to:


This is not raw power (as in physical might), but authorized status — like having citizenship papers, adoption rights, or legal entitlement. It means those who believe are legally and relationally given the standing of God’s children.

---

4.​

• The verse does not say people already are God's children by nature.
• Rather, those who receive Christ are granted this right/authority to become children of God — it is graciously given, not naturally held.
• It ties into new birth, adoption, and justification themes.

---

end of ChatGPT

But as many as have received him.

These people are granted the right to become children of God. even to those who believe

Your right, They were not Gods children by nature. they were dead to God. they were in a condemned state (john 3) they were under the wage of sin, they were dead in trespasses and sins. They were lost. without hope.

Until they received him.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

Believe (recieve) and I will give you my gift of life

continue to remain in unbelief. and I will continue to hold you condemned.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Does your Bible give the Greek meaning of the word translated "right" and in the KJV translated "power" so that the passage is correctly interpreted instead of just picking what suits the already held belief?

If you are suggesting that a breakdown from ChatGPT is worthless because it said what it said when you asked if it could lie, then look it up in an interlinear and find out if it did. You will discover that if you go to Strongs (which I did but chat was more condensed and therefore more practical to copy/past) says the same thing.

some of us have access to the greek word. (I use Logos Bible with many language resources and other resources including commentaries. lexicons, greek/hebrew sources..)

Some of us study to make sure we understand on questionable passages

some of us do not take any english bible as 100% correct.

just saying

 

[brightfame52]

Thats not what John said

it says they received him..

your right. their believeing did not do it. God did

But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.

In the end. God gets all the glory.

Man gets non.

This nonsense isnt even scriptural, i dont even know what in the world you talking about. God giving opportunities to reject or accept

 

[Eleanor]

Thats not what John said
it says they received him..
your right. their believeing did not do it. God did
But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.
In the end. God gets all the glory.
Man gets non.

Take a look at 1 Co 2:14. . .no one "receives" him apart from the Holy Spirit in the new birth, for the things of God are "foolishness to him and he cannot understand it."

They cannot even see the kingdom of God without the new birth by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), like the wind, depending on nothing but his sovereign choice to do so (Jn 3:6-8).

 

[Eleanor]

Thats not what John said
it says they received him..
your right. their believeing did not do it. God did
But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.
In the end. God gets all the glory.
Man gets non.

There is no accepting or rejecting the things of God.

Either your heart is made willing and you receive what is offered to all,
or your heart remains in its natural state of unwillingness and naturally rejects what is offered to all.

 

[Arial]

Until they received him.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

Where does Scripture say that?
Is it consistent with who God declares himself to be?

What if you were to nix the loaded word "force" and replace it with "grant", which is more in line with what the scriptures declare, and it never uses the word "force" or the implication of force in either the scriptures or Reformed theology.

John 6: 64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe.: (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who gives them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Eph 2 1. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked------.4. But God,----made us alive together with Christ---.

In just those three examples, no "option" or "force" is mentioned, or inferred, or implied.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This nonsense isnt even scriptural, i dont even know what in the world you talking about. God giving opportunities to reject or accept

and this is why I try not to respond to you. its a waste of time, and this is the usual response anyone gets back.

its not all about you my friend..

Believe what you want,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Where does Scripture say that?
Is it consistent with who God declares himself to be?

It said it in the very passage you tried to correct me on. Trying to focus on 2 english words and 2 bible versions.

But as many as have recieved him TO THM!!!!!!!

but more than this

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 to name a few.

who are the ones who were made children of God. who were the ones who were born again. Who were the ones who were given living water
Who were the ones who passed from death to life. and who are the ones who were given the multitude of promises in John 6?

those who recieve him in faith.

What if you were to nix the loaded word "force" and replace it with "grant",

That may help you. But it does not help reality.

If God made you have faith without giving you the ability to chose or reject him. He forced you.

which is more in line with what the scriptures declare, and it never uses the word "force" or the implication of force in either the scriptures or Reformed theology.

Well yes. But that would support my view.. God granted me the ability to be savged by grace. but he did not just force me to accept or rect his offer. He gave me the ability to say yes Lord or No lord.

In the end, he gets the honor and glory

Because he purchased the salvation of those saved with his blood, he gets all credit

He also purchased the gift for those who will die in unbelief. again, He is glorified. because he showed his love to them, they rejected him, he did not reject them

John 6: 64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe.: (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who gives them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Eph 2 1. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked------.4. But God,----made us alive together with Christ---.

In just those three examples, no "option" or "force" is mentioned, or inferred, or implied.

In all three of those passages, the word faith comers into play

In John 6. Jesus said it is the will of the father that whoever sees and believes......

John 10 is talking to Jews.. who thought they were his sheep. But they heard and did not believe..

and eph 2: 1 says it is by grace we have been saved.. through faith

You can not remove faith from the equation my friend.

Well you can if you desire. But I in all honestly, can not and take the word or God seriously

 

[Eleanor]

It said it in the very passage you tried to correct me on. Trying to focus on 2 english words and 2 bible versions.
But as many as have recieved him TO THM!!!!!!!
but more than this
John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 to name a few.
who are the ones who were made children of God. who were the ones who were born again. Who were the ones who were given living water
Who were the ones who passed from death to life. and who are the ones who were given the multitude of promises in John 6?

those who recieve him in faith.
That may help you. But it does not help reality.
If God made you have faith without giving you the ability to chose or reject him. He forced you.

Au contraire. . .

No force involved. . .free will is the power to choose what one prefers.

He made me willing, and I freely chose what I preferred.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Many are called. yet few are chosen.

so I would say the answer can the call of God alone cause a person to repent is no.

Scripture and experience shows God uses many things to draw people to himself..

Even Israel. God called them, Told them when he would come. and what he would do when he came. and he fulfilled those things even up to the date.

Yet they were not willing. But not because God did not call them, He did. with everything he did

But they refused to believe.. The law, which was supposed to show them the way. instead became a stumbling lock. because they failed to interpret the law right.

 

[Arial]

But as many as have recieved him TO THM!!!!!!!

but more than this

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 to name a few.

who are the ones who were made children of God. who were the ones who were born again. Who were the ones who were given living water
Who were the ones who passed from death to life. and who are the ones who were given the multitude of promises in John 6?

those who recieve him in faith.

Sure. But where is the statement or even implication in any of those verses that states an option is being offered. If we believe, we have eternal life.

If we don't believe, we are condemned already.

Can we believe and reject what we believe at the same time? If believing is all that is required for eternal life, don't we have it when we believe? And if we have it, and it is eternal, can we cease to have it?

How does what I see as your eisegesis of choice into such passages align with who God reveals himself to be?

In John 6. Jesus said it is the will of the father that whoever sees and believes......

In the portion of John 6 that I quoted to be discussed it says two things. That only those who God grants to come to him will come to him. And that these are the ones that he is giving to Jesus. So, when it says that whoever sees and believes--- that cannot divorced from this. By not divorcing the two things, we are able to gain a correct understanding of both. One will not contradict the other.

and eph 2: 1 says it is by grace we have been saved.. through faith

You can not remove faith from the equation my friend.

I am not removing faith from the equation. I am directing the passage to what we are specifically talking about, because it is an affirmation of what I am positing. Bringing by grace you are saved through faith, into the conversation instead of dealing with what was being pointed out, may not intentionally be a red herring, but without addressing the issues and the portion I quoted in connection with the issue, it works like one. So can we go back and do that? So we don't get all haywire and unproductive. I am willing to listen to you, but I need to have what I bring up in connection to the discussion addressed and, of course, questions I ask, answered. I will do the same with your posts.

But they refused to believe.. The law, which was supposed to show them the way. instead became a stumbling lock. because they failed to interpret the law right.

In the first two passages I gave, one from John 6 and the other from John 10, why does Jesus say that they don't believe? So you don't have to go back and look it up, here they are again.

But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said,"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are no among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

John 10 is talking to Jews.. who thought they were his sheep. But they heard and did not believe..

They did not think that they were Jesus' sheep. They did not even believe Jesus was who he said he was. They heard his voice, they saw him doing what only God can do, and they still didn't believe. And Jesus tells them why they didn't believe. Because they were not his sheep so when they heard his voice they did not follow him. Keep in mind, because it is easy to lose sight of the specific issue that is being discussed in our posts, since other issues with other people are going on at the same time. From your post #203 and my asking you where Scripture said that.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

So, you used scriptures to show that it does say that and so on and so on. So do the scriptures I gave say something different than what you present your scriptures as saying? You need to tell me what they do say, rather than just jump to other scriptures. Thanks in advance.

 

[Arial]

That may help you. But it does not help reality.

If God made you have faith without giving you the ability to chose or reject him. He forced you.

That is how you view it. But that does not mean that it is a correct view.

Would you consider making you alive when you are dead, giving you life, or forcing life upon you? Can a dead person choose life? God is not forcing a person to have faith, he is giving them faith. A faith they could never find on their own because they do not possess saving faith anywhere in them. Thanks be to God, he sent his Son to die himself in order to provide what is necessary for that faith to be given. The one in whom the faith rests.

Well yes. But that would support my view.. God granted me the ability to be savged by grace. but he did not just force me to accept or rect his offer. He gave me the ability to say yes Lord or No lord.

It doesn't support your view at all. I know to you it does, but you have to insert something in to the scriptures that just is not there. Scripture does not say that grace gives the ability to say yes Lord or no Lord. It says we are saved by grace----meaning we don't deserve it, never have, and never will deserve it----through faith. And it says that faith, saving faith in the person and work of Jesus, is a gift, so that no one can boast. Now why would those words "So that no one can boast" be in that sentence? That alone removes all supposed offer to accept or reject. Accepting would become no longer grace, but because of something we did. Accepted. And rejecting would no longer be because you were born in sin and do not deserve salvation, but because you rejected the offer.

 

[makesends]

But as many as have received him.

These people are granted the right to become children of God. even to those who believe

Your right, They were not Gods children by nature. they were dead to God. they were in a condemned state (john 3) they were under the wage of sin, they were dead in trespasses and sins. They were lost. without hope.

Until they received him.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

Believe (recieve) and I will give you my gift of life

continue to remain in unbelief. and I will continue to hold you condemned.

A receptacle receives, not by the receptacle's choice, but by the use of the one handling that receptacle.

"Receptacle" —hmmm ...one might even say, "Vessel". Like in Romans 9.

 

[ReverendRV]

But as many as have received him.

These people are granted the right to become children of God. even to those who believe

God gives Believers the Right to become Adopted Children of God; Regeneration doesn't make anyone a Child of God; it just makes Us Spiritually Alive...

 

[makesends]

God gives Believers the Right to become Adopted Children of God; Regeneration doesn't make anyone a Child of God; it just makes Us Spiritually Alive...

I'm curious about your ordo salutis. Regeneration certainly doesn't fail to provide the way. I'd be careful about separating becoming a Child of God from regeneration.

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm curious about your ordo salutis. Regeneration certainly doesn't fail to provide the way. I'd be careful about separating becoming a Child of God from regeneration.

Regeneration Logically occurs before Faith. Faith Logically occurs before our Adoption and our long Engagement / marriage to Christ before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They are obviously distinct though, or they would be spelled the same and have the same definition. They are the Gift of God, and can't be separated; they are a Hypostasis, and practically are the same Gift...

My Ordo Salutis has Unconditional Election then the Washing of Regeneration first, the Justification of Faith second; and the Renewal of the Spirit third before Adoption, etc. The One New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of the Spirit; Faith is sandwiched between them. The three occur simultaneously in the Temporal Order...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sure. But where is the statement or even implication in any of those verses that states an option is being offered. If we believe, we have eternal life.

If we don't believe, we are condemned already.

John 3: in response to nicodemus question. How can these things be (how are we born again)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Notice. Jesus takes nicodemus back to a time, and place. and event Nicodemus would have been very familiar with. this would immediately bring to his remembrance the time the children of Israel due to their sin was sent a bunch of serpents by God.. They cried out. So God had moses make a bronse serpent and lifted it up. and said whoever looks at this serpent will live.

The opportunity was there for everyone. But not everone looked. Only those who trusted God were saved. the rest died.

in the same token then Jesus said he will be lifted up. ie, the serpent was a type of him and the pole was a type of the cross.

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

remember, this whole conversation is about being born again. While we are alive in the flesh, we must be made alive in the spirit by being born this second time (spiritually)

when is a person born again? When they believe. not only are they born again, But they will never perish.. and will live forever 9eternal security is in tact and promised)

this would be more then enough to prove his point. He could have stopped here. But he did not. He again will reiterate and expound on this premis.. that we are born again, when in faith we look to Gods provision.


16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

its one thing to say it once. But here Jesus repeats his message.. He loved Israel so9 much he offered them a bronze serpent. He however loved the whole world so much, he offered himself

in both cased. whoever believes were saved. they are born again, they will never die. and they will live forever


17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
once again, Jesus offers more insite..I am not sent to judge (the jews thought he was. and he would spare them, because they were his) Jesus said he was sent so they MAY be saved - (Aorist Passive Subjunctive) there is no gaurantee that all in the world will be saved. He died so they may be saved Just like all the jews were nto all saved. although the bronze serpent was sent for them all)

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

the final conclusion to this whole conversation is this

A person who believes. as was mentioned multiple times. Is born again, Will never perish, and will be saved and Have Gods promise they will live forever.

A person who is still in the state of unbelief is still dead. must be born again, still condemned. because they have not believe

so I am sorry. Your statement is not true. It is not only stated as fact. it is indicated as fact.

Can we believe and reject what we believe at the same time? If believing is all that is required for eternal life, don't we have it when we believe? And if we have it, and it is eternal, can we cease to have it?

This is far to complicated and I think gets to the root of the issue
Can I believe and not have faith? Even Demons believe there is one God.. yet they tremble.

Yes, you can believe and reject at the same time. people do it all the time. They believe in God but when it comes down to trusting God.
1. they either reject the fact they are so evil they are condemned,
2. They reject the fact that they can not save themselves by following some religious system (like the jews and many in the church)
3. They recieve God in spirit. but then try to perfect that salvation with their works. hence they do not trust the cross is enough to save them.

in all of these cases (and I am sure there are more) they believe. but they did not have faith.

The people of Israel cried out to moses asking for help. they believe God could do it

But when it came down to faith. some reacted and received Gods gift. the rest rejected and were killed

How does what I see as your eisegesis of choice into such passages align with who God reveals himself to be?

if you want to talk to me, talk to me, I really do not care to discuss eisegesis or whatever you want to call it. i want to discuss what the word says. If you wish to do that. lets go.. I am all for it.

In the portion of John 6 that I quoted to be discussed it says two things. That only those who God grants to come to him will come to him. And that these are the ones that he is giving to Jesus. So, when it says that whoever sees and believes--- that cannot divorced from this. By not divorcing the two things, we are able to gain a correct understanding of both. One will not contradict the other.

But it removes Gods character and his omniscience. God KNEW who would See, he KNEW who would come. trying to remove the words whoever sees and believes, which by the way Jesus said WAS THE WILL OF GOD, just makes the whole passage of John 6 in this conversation non sensical.

the whole conversation is centered around not working for food which perishes. but food which endures forever. Eating the bread from heaven, Eating his flesh and blood. Coming to him

all who do this

will never hunger or thirst
will never perish
will never die
will live forever
will never be lost
will br raised by him (as apposed to delivered to him)

you can not sit there and say only people who come, believe receive will get these things, then say non of that matters..

I am not removing faith from the equation. I am directing the passage to what we are specifically talking about, because it is an affirmation of what I am positing. Bringing by grace you are saved through faith, into the conversation instead of dealing with what was being pointed out, may not intentionally be a red herring, but without addressing the issues and the portion I quoted in connection with the issue, it works like one. So can we go back and do that? So we don't get all haywire and unproductive. I am willing to listen to you, but I need to have what I bring up in connection to the discussion addressed and, of course, questions I ask, answered. I will do the same with your posts.

I hope I have answered in great detail.

again, we do not just remove a part of a passage because it does not support us, we must take it all

James said we are not justified by faith only but by works.. If we take this as written, like you are trying to take the few verses you posted. without getting context and taking everything said into account. We risk doing what I am trying to appose in another chatroom. that I am ignoring James, who said flat out. we are saved by faith and works.. You and I both know this is not true. But there are some who want force the bible to fit their belief, and not the opposite..

both of us must do this. are we are no better than they are.. I hope you agree.

In the first two passages I gave, one from John 6 and the other from John 10, why does Jesus say that they don't believe? So you don't have to go back and look it up, here they are again.

But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said,"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are no among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

Lets take the whole of scripture in context.

You answered your own question though. Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not.

Foreknowledge is the basis for predestination.

God knows who will believe.

he also knows what it will take for them to believe. that why not everyone comes to Faith the same way. and also why God is justified in the end. no matter what a person choses

They did not think that they were Jesus' sheep. They did not even believe Jesus was who he said he was. They heard his voice, they saw him doing what only God can do, and they still didn't believe. And Jesus tells them why they didn't believe. Because they were not his sheep so when they heard his voice they did not follow him. Keep in mind, because it is easy to lose sight of the specific issue that is being discussed in our posts, since other issues with other people are going on at the same time. From your post #203 and my asking you where Scripture said that.

They thought Jesus came as conquering messiah, not as the suffering servant.

Judas did the same. He though Jesus would free them from rome. He failed to see the purpose for Jesus walk on earth at that time.

Most of the city did the same. when he came in riding a donkey. they thought he was going to come in and kick romans out. and set up his kingdom. they welcomed him with Palms, which is what they did when a conquering king came into a city.. Once they realized just like Judas did, that this was not the case. they turned and crucified him.

But Jesus did come to them, he did try to draw them. as shown in his words he spoke the day he came to jerusalem

Matthew 23:37

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem​

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That's also why Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and blood.. To separate the wheat from the tares. He knew in doing so they would leave disgusted.. and that's what happened. Even though his disciples still was not sure exactly what it all meant. they stayed, understanding, You have the words of eternal life. and we have come to believe

So, you used scriptures to show that it does say that and so on and so on. So do the scriptures I gave say something different than what you present your scriptures as saying? You need to tell me what they do say, rather than just jump to other scriptures. Thanks in advance.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is how you view it. But that does not mean that it is a correct view.

to me it is the only logical view

If I offer you something, and you have no ability to recieve it. I have in effect offered you something you can never have.

on the other hand, If I offer something to you. But in your natural state you would never recieve it. But then i do something to you which you had no decision to say yes do that to me, or no I do not want that, so that you would receive it and not reject it

I have in essence forced you to receive my gift by coercion.

Would you consider making you alive when you are dead, giving you life, or forcing life upon you?

I would consider God making me alive while still dead in sin a compromise on Gods integrity. A refusal to deliver his own perfect justice. and the fact he only chose a select few. and not even allow the rest a possibility to be made alive. an attach on his character.

Can a dead person choose life?

A dead person can not do anything good or bad. they can not move, they can not see, they can not walk. they can not think, they are lifeless.. They cant say yes, they can't say no. They can't sin they can't do good works. they are dead

so trying to use this to get me to see it your way will not work.. Because they two deaths do not correlate.

A spiritually dead person can chose to do right or wrong. He can chose to sin or not sin. He can chose to walk here and there. He can see and he can walk.

if he can do this, All God has to do is show himself to them, and prove he is worthy of their faith.

He came to Israel to do this. Sadly. because they did not want a savior. they wanted a king. they chose to reject him

God is not forcing a person to have faith, he is giving them faith.

If he gives it to you through no choice of your own, he is in effect forcing them to believe.

A faith they could never find on their own because they do not possess saving faith anywhere in them.

Your right, its not in them, its in christ.

And yes, they can find that faith. if they only believe.. faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

if faith is just given, the word is meaningless

Thanks be to God, he sent his Son to die himself in order to provide what is necessary for that faith to be given. The one in whom the faith rests.

Yes. it rests in him, not in us

that's why faith is not a work. It is a work of God. who knows what we need to trust him, and individually will do all he can to bring that to fruition. Sadly also knowing in some they will never trust him no matter what.

remember, God told Abraham, your family will be held out of the eland for 400 years. because the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete.

there was still hope some would believe. it was not until there was nothing God could do to get them to believe. he told Israel to go in, and kill every last one of them (like the flood)

It doesn't support your view at all. I know to you it does, but you have to insert something in to the scriptures that just is not there. Scripture does not say that grace gives the ability to say yes Lord or no Lord. It says we are saved by grace----

It says we are saved by grace through faith

if there is no possibility of faith. then there is no possibility of grace being applied.

meaning we don't deserve it, never have, and never will deserve it----through faith.

I never deserved it. My faith did not save me, Gods grace did.

he just did not force me to receive it, he gave me and the rest of the world the option.. Take it and live, or do not believe and die. Just like he gave the children of Israel the choice. Trust me and look to the bronze serpent and live. or reject me and die

And it says that faith, saving faith in the person and work of Jesus,

I am not arguing against this. Please stop insinuating I am

is a gift, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is the gift. Not faith.

Now why would those words "So that no one can boast" be in that sentence?

Because those saved by Grace through FAITH and not work can not boast. Because their faith was in the work and promise of God. not their own works. they did not save themselves

That alone removes all supposed offer to accept or reject.

Negative. it does no such thing

Accepting would become no longer grace,

Again wrong

we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

you keep trying to remove faith. You can not do that.

but because of something we did. Accepted. And rejecting would no longer be because you were born in sin and do not deserve salvation, but because you rejected the offer.

You are accepting a gift God is trying to give you. it is no different than you accepting a gift your earthy father tried to give you. If your father offered you a valuable gift. and you received it, You can not boast you earned the gift. You can't boast you paid for the gift. You can't boast you did anything to deserve the gift.

Your father gets the glory not you. But you could reject it.. You had the choice.

if anything in the john 3 story. the only people who earned anything was the one who did not believe. They earned their condemnation.

The one who believed did not earn anything, they did not, or could not pay for the salvation God offered. any more than the children of Israel could earn or save themselves from the fatal poison running through their bodies