Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[Arial]

A dead person can not do anything good or bad. they can not move, they can not see, they can not walk. they can not think, they are lifeless.. They cant say yes, they can't say no. They can't sin they can't do good works. they are dead

so trying to use this to get me to see it your way will not work.. Because they two deaths do not correlate.

I am not trying to get to to do anything but pay attention to what Scripture is saying. What is being spoken about in Eph 2 is a spiritual death. However a spiritual death and our natural death do correlate when it comes to salvation. Our bodies will die but they will also be resurrected when Christ returns. So stay with the conversation. What does Eph 2 mean when it says that God in his mercy, even while we were dead in sin, gave us life?

A spiritually dead person can chose to do right or wrong. He can chose to sin or not sin. He can chose to walk here and there. He can see and he can walk.

if he can do this, All God has to do is show himself to them, and prove he is worthy of their faith.

How would you say he shows himself to them? And does he do this for everyone? Please support with Scripture and exposition of those scriptures. What does it mean when in John 6 Jesus says no one can come to him unless it is granted by the Father?

Where do we read anything about God that remotely indicates that he is out to prove himself worthy of faith, to the very creatures he made? Wouldn't that be upside down and backwards?

If he gives it to you through no choice of your own, he is in effect forcing them to believe.

So what? "Who are you O man, to argue with God?

And yes, they can find that faith. if they only believe.. faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

Faith is never said to be something we find, in scripture. Faith in the person and work of Christ unto salvation is a gift (Eph 2). Many people, myself included have heard the gospel, even read it, for years and years and never believed it. Jesus preached it loud and clear. The Law and Prophets proclaimed it. But not many (comparitively) believe. Something else has to happen before we believe. It has to be done by God, and according to Jesus, that something is we must be born again from above.

I am breaking that along post of yours into sections so dealing with my content will not be so overwhelming. So will be back soon.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

But isn't it the View of the Bible that you are an Ambassador of Christ; you are in the Kingdom now?

well I see it differently

Since you are in the Kingdom of God now, you entered through Faith to even be able to become an Ambassador. Isn't it true that Jesus said you can't Enter the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again?

Yes. and did he not tell us how to be born again?

by looking to the cross in faith.. (john 3: 10 - 18)

And before he said this, he said you can't see the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again? Doesn't this mean you cannot see the Kingdom of God to enter it

actually he said unless we become poor in spirit we can not enter in.

are we not already spiritually bankrupt. so what does it mean to become poor in spirit to enter in?

unless you are Born Again? Isn't the Conclusion of Christ's Syllogism, that Faith's perception can't precede the New Birth? Not a Fallen person's perception, but the Gift of Faith's Perception?

But jesus answer is we are born again WHEn in faith we look to the cross. As the people Of Israel did..

They cried out to moses for Gods help

Moses called out to God

God gave moses an answer that could have saved everyone who was dead people walking

Moses obeyed and made a bronze serpent.

God offered salvation to everyone. But he said they had to look at the serpent (trust God)

some did and lived

Some did not. and died.. I imagine they thought it was prety stupid to think some man named moses could just build a bronze serpent and just by looking they could be saved, so they died in unbelief

Jesus said in that same manner, He will be hung on a cross. Everyone who looks will be saved, never perish, and be born again, this life being eternal (eternal life he called it). those who do not will perish.

we see every day people who think it is foolish to think just trusting a man who was killed 2000 years agao and hung on a cross can save us.

but its the only way.

We enter the Kingdom of God through Faith, so Logically we are Born Again before we enter through Faith...

no. we are born again, because God brought us to our knees (he broke our spirit or made us poor in spirit) and we called out to him like the tax collector.

even when I was first saved, i did not understand the kingdom of God. I just new God adopted me as his son, and as such, I entered in.

I have spent my life since then trying to learn all I need to know..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Indeed. And how does that make it an offer?

how does it not make it an offer?

I mean really??

if you are given the gospel.. is it not an offer?

When God went to the jews. did he not offer them life?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He did it because of man's wickedness. Do you disagree?

he did it also because he knew no matter what he did. No one living would be spared..

Remember the story of Lot..

God would have spared the city of how many people would repent and be saved?

God did not see any.. except lot and his family.. Just like he saw non except noah and his family. And he saw non except the woman who risked her life to save the jewish spies..

God will not kill you if he thinks there is any chance or anything he could do to cause you to repent..

he has prove than over and over

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When you were saved, were you forced?

No. because I was given a choice. I could have rejected the offer. and walked out of the room

I'm sure you will say no, of course not. Yet, you were saved like everyone else who has been saved or will be saved.

yes. Because we trusted christ and called out to him as the tax collector.. We were given a choice,. and we acted on it in faith, and did not walk away in unbelief

You were regenerated; therefore, you willingly believed.

No I was not.

I can not be raised in sin.

No one forced you;

If what you say is true, I was forced.

if Gods grace is irresistable and I can not resist. I am forced.

that just cannot be done. I pray you may understand grace more then you do now.

I understand grace clearly.

I pray you understand Gods justice and love more clearly and how they intertwine to serve his purpose

Please, bring up a thread with this topic.

a topic of Grace?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Comparisons like this---man to God in order to define what God is doing in respect to salvation----do not work as a valid interpretation of what God is doing or does. We are not engaging in a conversation about what man does in relation to other men. We are engaging in a conversation about what God-----the unique and sovereign---does in establishing a relationship with mankind. You are comparing apples and oranges as though they were the same thing.

God does not offer something to anyone. Who has the upper, controlling hand in that situation? God or man? This is where those who believe in the "free choice" of salvation, go awry in a great deal of their Bible interpretation. It throw everything off and makes it impossible to see it correctly. God gives the gift of faith to those he has predestined to belong to him. Jesus himself says this. "Those the Father gives me---". These he draws, these believe when they hear, these hear his voice and follow him. (I have given those scriptures.)

The called are given the gift of faith.

Will address rest tomorrow if I can get internet connection on my lap top. Have it on all my other devices (on tablet now). But I don't like doing it this way. I have not been able to post or sign out since this afternoon. Mainly came back to post this part and sign out. See you tomorrow.

God spoke in human terms

he gave parables in human terms

He used human terms to describe spiritual truths.

we can and most certainly should use human terms to describe Gods word.

Gods ways are not our ways does not mean we change meanings and terms to make up some biblical definition..

it means salvation is by grace through faith

That the god of the universe. can down in a manger. fulfilled the law. and died in our place.

It means we can not earn salvation in any means 9totally against human nature)

it also means God is a God of love.. God created all mankind in his image. we are Gods image bearers. its why we have no excuse. because of what may be known of God is in us..

we cna hide that truth, like romans 1 says so many of us do

or we can react to Gods call. come poor in spirit. and enter the kingdom.

The called are given the gift of salvation. based on grace..

the non called are offered that same gift. But god did not force them to believe. hence they turned in unbelieve. like those who died when they rejected the offer of salvation through the bronze serpent

 

[Carbon]

No. because I was given a choice. I could have rejected the offer. and walked out of the room

You chose willingly because you were given the capacity to believe.

yes. Because we trusted christ and called out to him as the tax collector.. We were given a choice,. and we acted on it in faith, and did not walk away in unbelief

Of course, you trusted Christ because you were quickened. Call it a choice if you like, but scripture does not agree with you.

No I was not.

You were, you just dont know that yet.

I can not be raised in sin.

Is this a new thing you came up with?

If what you say is true, I was forced.

Do you think maybe you just dont understand this?

if God's grace is irresistible and I can not resist. I am forced.

No, not at all. Do a study on grace.

I understand grace clearly.

I do not believe you do.

I pray you understand Gods justice and love more clearly and how they intertwine to serve his purpose

a topic of Grace?

Sure, a topic of grace.

 

[ReverendRV]

well I see it differently

Ambassadors are Citizens of their Kingdom...

Years ago I worked for a Carpet Cleaner. We went to the German Consolate in Atlanta. Entering meant we were on German Territory; we were as good as in Germany. The Ambassador was German. - You can see it differently, but you are wrong. Agreeing to disagree is a Logical Fallacy...

You are an Ambassador of Christ; right?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You chose willingly because you were given the capacity to believe.

all of us are given that..

Of course, you trusted Christ because you were quickened. Call it a choice if you like, but scripture does not agree with you.

Then God forced me to believe, I had no choice.

You were, you just dont know that yet.

well that may be you opinion. But I can not see it that way. because it did not happen that way

Is this a new thing you came up with?

I have said it over and over.

the wage of sin is death, we are condemned because of our sin. as long as I remain in unbelief. I am under the death penalty. God is just. His perfect justice must be carried out

His love can find away. But he will not force his love on anyone

again, If your still in unbelief, your still dead.

Do you think maybe you just dont understand this?

Or maybe you do not understand this? Seriously brother what kind of question is this. i do not see it your way so I may not understand?

No, not at all. Do a study on grace.

I have studied grace for 40 years my friend.

I do not believe you do.

well thats your opinion. and I thank you for caring

But I do

Sure, a topic of grace.

I will try to open one tomorrow.. I am out of time today..

Thank you for the blessed conversation. it is always a blessing to discuss Gods word

 

[Carbon]

Then God forced me to believe, I had no choice.

If that be the case, that would be grace also. Be thankful.
The alternative is not good.

 

[Arial]

if faith is just given, the word is meaningless

You will need to explain how that is the case.

Yes. it rests in him, not in us

that's why faith is not a work. It is a work of God. who knows what we need to trust him, and individually will do all he can to bring that to fruition. Sadly also knowing in some they will never trust him no matter what.

When I say our faith rests in Christ, I mean that we are trusting in his person, and his work. You are using it some other way, which you will have to explain.

The reason saving faith is not a work is for the reason that Paul gives as its design. As something that we do not possess and must be given to us. Our natural condition rebels against it as foolishness. Christ and him crucified for the forgiveness of our sins is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentile (1 Cor 1:18-25).( Notice again in verse 24 we have the use of that word "called" in regard to the believer.)

Saving faith is not a worldly, common, faith. It is a unique faith that comes from God by way of his regenerating work in a person; and that gives something that no other faith can give---salvation from our sins, reconciliation with God, eternal life.

remember, God told Abraham, your family will be held out of the eland for 400 years. because the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete.

Means it had not yet reached a turning point, established by God, where judgement would fall on them. The judgment, in part, was the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, being brought into that land and a long with them, destruction by God through them.

there was still hope some would believe. it was not until there was nothing God could do to get them to believe. he told Israel to go in, and kill every last one of them (like the flood)

Now you have presented God as neither omniscient or omnipotent. And there is no record of God ever trying to "get them to believe". In fact he tells Israel that he is revealing himself to them and only then, and no other nation. And that is what he did. He revealed himself as a covenant God, and the one true and living God, the God who enters history and acts in it, the God who speaks, hears, and controls nature. He showed them who he is. If only, his children adopted in Christ would remember that!

It says we are saved by grace through faith

if there is no possibility of faith. then there is no possibility of grace being applied.

I think you do not correctly understand what it means when it says we are saved by grace. You recognize the meaning of the word, but the impact of it has never struck you. I say that because when I was a "free willy" for the first twenty years of my adopting in Christ, I had that same problem and had not idea that I did. It was not until I came to Reformed theology that I was able to see it. So, I don't know how to clarify it for you, other than to say saved by grace means that it is only by the grace of God that that any are saved. What we deserve from Gen 3 on is nothing but judgment and wrath.

And God is under no obligation to extend this saving grace to anyone or to everyone. We are not the center of the universe. Ever. God is always. And all that he does is for his glory, not ours. He gives faith through the work of regeneration and the indwelling of the Spirit to whom he pleases.

I never deserved it. My faith did not save me, Gods grace did.

he just did not force me to receive it, he gave me and the rest of the world the option.. Take it and live, or do not believe and die. Just like he gave the children of Israel the choice. Trust me and look to the bronze serpent and live. or reject me and die

You were saved because of his grace towards you, through faith, and that is a gift of God not of yourself. If all he did was give you an option, while you are dead and condemned in your sin my friend, you would still be dead and condemned in your sin.

And you cannot conflate two completely different types of covenants and interpret the one (NC which is a Covenant of Grace) by the other (OC which is a Covenant of Works). The Old is a bi-lateral covenant. The New is a unilateral covenant. Look those up if you need to.

I am not arguing against this. Please stop insinuating I am

I did not insinuate that you did so stop insinuating that I did. Seriously. See how quickly it gets a bad reaction? Lets nip that right here and now.

 

[Carbon]

Or maybe you do not understand this? Seriously brother what kind of question is this. i do not see it your way so I may not understand?

I have been studying scripture for quite a while myself, and there are things I do not understand, perhaps many things. Are you exempt? You understand everything?

Probably best we aree to disagree over this?

 

[Arial]

John 3: in response to nicodemus question. How can these things be (how are we born again)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Notice. Jesus takes nicodemus back to a time, and place. and event Nicodemus would have been very familiar with. this would immediately bring to his remembrance the time the children of Israel due to their sin was sent a bunch of serpents by God.. They cried out. So God had moses make a bronse serpent and lifted it up. and said whoever looks at this serpent will live.

The opportunity was there for everyone. But not everone looked. Only those who trusted God were saved. the rest died.

in the same token then Jesus said he will be lifted up. ie, the serpent was a type of him and the pole was a type of the cross.

15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

remember, this whole conversation is about being born again. While we are alive in the flesh, we must be made alive in the spirit by being born this second time (spiritually)

when is a person born again? When they believe. not only are they born again, But they will never perish.. and will live forever 9eternal security is in tact and promised)

this would be more then enough to prove his point. He could have stopped here. But he did not. He again will reiterate and expound on this premis.. that we are born again, when in faith we look to Gods provision.


16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

its one thing to say it once. But here Jesus repeats his message.. He loved Israel so9 much he offered them a bronze serpent. He however loved the whole world so much, he offered himself

in both cased. whoever believes were saved. they are born again, they will never die. and they will live forever


17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
once again, Jesus offers more insite..I am not sent to judge (the jews thought he was. and he would spare them, because they were his) Jesus said he was sent so they MAY be saved - (Aorist Passive Subjunctive) there is no gaurantee that all in the world will be saved. He died so they may be saved Just like all the jews were nto all saved. although the bronze serpent was sent for them all)

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

the final conclusion to this whole conversation is this

A person who believes. as was mentioned multiple times. Is born again, Will never perish, and will be saved and Have Gods promise they will live forever.

A person who is still in the state of unbelief is still dead. must be born again, still condemned. because they have not believe

so I am sorry. Your statement is not true. It is not only stated as fact. it is indicated as fact.

This is far to complicated and I think gets to the root of the issue
Can I believe and not have faith? Even Demons believe there is one God.. yet they tremble.

Yes, you can believe and reject at the same time. people do it all the time. They believe in God but when it comes down to trusting God.
1. they either reject the fact they are so evil they are condemned,
2. They reject the fact that they can not save themselves by following some religious system (like the jews and many in the church)
3. They recieve God in spirit. but then try to perfect that salvation with their works. hence they do not trust the cross is enough to save them.

in all of these cases (and I am sure there are more) they believe. but they did not have faith.

The people of Israel cried out to moses asking for help. they believe God could do it

But when it came down to faith. some reacted and received Gods gift. the rest rejected and were killed

if you want to talk to me, talk to me, I really do not care to discuss eisegesis or whatever you want to call it. i want to discuss what the word says. If you wish to do that. lets go.. I am all for it.



But it removes Gods character and his omniscience. God KNEW who would See, he KNEW who would come. trying to remove the words whoever sees and believes, which by the way Jesus said WAS THE WILL OF GOD, just makes the whole passage of John 6 in this conversation non sensical.

the whole conversation is centered around not working for food which perishes. but food which endures forever. Eating the bread from heaven, Eating his flesh and blood. Coming to him

all who do this

will never hunger or thirst
will never perish
will never die
will live forever
will never be lost
will br raised by him (as apposed to delivered to him)

you can not sit there and say only people who come, believe receive will get these things, then say non of that matters..



I hope I have answered in great detail.

again, we do not just remove a part of a passage because it does not support us, we must take it all

James said we are not justified by faith only but by works.. If we take this as written, like you are trying to take the few verses you posted. without getting context and taking everything said into account. We risk doing what I am trying to appose in another chatroom. that I am ignoring James, who said flat out. we are saved by faith and works.. You and I both know this is not true. But there are some who want force the bible to fit their belief, and not the opposite..

both of us must do this. are we are no better than they are.. I hope you agree.



Lets take the whole of scripture in context.

You answered your own question though. Jesus knew from the beginning who would believe and who would not.

Foreknowledge is the basis for predestination.

God knows who will believe.

he also knows what it will take for them to believe. that why not everyone comes to Faith the same way. and also why God is justified in the end. no matter what a person choses

They thought Jesus came as conquering messiah, not as the suffering servant.

Judas did the same. He though Jesus would free them from rome. He failed to see the purpose for Jesus walk on earth at that time.

Most of the city did the same. when he came in riding a donkey. they thought he was going to come in and kick romans out. and set up his kingdom. they welcomed him with Palms, which is what they did when a conquering king came into a city.. Once they realized just like Judas did, that this was not the case. they turned and crucified him.

But Jesus did come to them, he did try to draw them. as shown in his words he spoke the day he came to jerusalem

Matthew 23:37

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem​

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That's also why Jesus spoke of eating his flesh and blood.. To separate the wheat from the tares. He knew in doing so they would leave disgusted.. and that's what happened. Even though his disciples still was not sure exactly what it all meant. they stayed, understanding, You have the words of eternal life. and we have come to believe

I know I haven't responded to this post yet. It is very long. I will need to bookmark it and get back to it at some point. We had one violent thunderstorm roll one after another, two nights in a row. Internet went out yesterday early afternoon and I am way behind. Playing catch up.

 

[Arial]

Salvation is the gift. Not faith.

That requires exegesis of the passage and within its context and the context of the full counsel of God on salvation. I am too far behind to do that here because of storms taking down the internet. So I will start a thread and direct you to it with my exegesis, when I get time. You are of course free to engage with it or not, read it or not.

Again wrong

we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.

you keep trying to remove faith. You can not do that.

In what way am I trying to remove faith? Have I not been addressing it? Just a note, with no animosity or accusation in it: if you did not respond by breaking up my sentences or my thoughts and responding to each as an isolated statement, your post would not be so long. And it wouldn't remove my words from their context. Please try and shorten your posts.

You are accepting a gift God is trying to give you.

God is trying to do something? Then he must not be omnipotent.

it is no different than you accepting a gift your earthy father tried to give you. If your father offered you a valuable gift. and you received it, You can not boast you earned the gift. You can't boast you paid for the gift. You can't boast you did anything to deserve the gift.

It is as different as God is from my father. Or yours. Or anyone's. The distance between God and man cannot be calculated or comprehended. So there is no comparison between those two things.

if anything in the john 3 story. the only people who earned anything was the one who did not believe. They earned their condemnation.

They earned nothing. They were condemned already. They got justice.

 

[Arial]

God spoke in human terms

he gave parables in human terms

He used human terms to describe spiritual truths.

we can and most certainly should use human terms to describe Gods word.

Did I say that we are not supposed to speak in human terms? In all sincere kindness, please read more carefully what I actually say and having done so, then compose an appropriate response. Thank you.

Gods ways are not our ways does not mean we change meanings and terms to make up some biblical definition..

Are you saying that is what I am doing? Or that is what I said we should do?

it means salvation is by grace through faith

That the god of the universe. can down in a manger. fulfilled the law. and died in our place.

It means we can not earn salvation in any means 9totally against human nature)

it also means God is a God of love.. God created all mankind in his image. we are Gods image bearers. its why we have no excuse. because of what may be known of God is in us..

we cna hide that truth, like romans 1 says so many of us do

or we can react to Gods call. come poor in spirit. and enter the kingdom.

The called are given the gift of salvation. based on grace..

the non called are offered that same gift. But god did not force them to believe. hence they turned in unbelieve. like those who died when they rejected the offer of salvation through the bronze serpent

I don't know the purpose of you posting all of this, but it went far, far away from post #238 it was responding to and didn't bother to answer any of the questions that I asked. This is why we get into trouble in our communication. Do you suppose we can get back to what we were doing so well up to this point?

 

[Eleanor]

to me it is the only logical view
If I offer you something, and you have no ability to recieve it. I have in effect offered you something you can never have.
on the other hand, If I offer something to you. But in your natural state you would never recieve it. But then i do something to you which you had no decision to say yes do that to me, or no I do not want that, so that you would receive it and not reject it
I have in essence forced you to receive my gift by coercion.
I would consider God making me alive while still dead in sin a compromise on Gods integrity. A refusal to deliver his own perfect justice. and the fact he only chose a select few. and not even allow the rest a possibility to be made alive. an attach on his character.
A dead person can not do anything good or bad. they can not move, they can not see, they can not walk. they can not think, they are lifeless.. They cant say yes, they can't say no. They can't sin they can't do good works. they are dead
so trying to use this to get me to see it your way will not work.. Because they two deaths do not correlate.

A spiritually dead person can chose to do right or wrong. He can chose to sin or not sin. He can chose to walk here and there. He can see and he can walk.
if he can do this, All God has to do is show himself to them, and prove he is worthy of their faith.
He came to Israel to do this. Sadly. because they did not want a savior. they wanted a king. they chose to reject him
If he gives it to you through no choice of your own, he is in effect forcing them to believe.

Contraire. . .to force is to do against one'e preference.
He gives us to prefer it and we, therefore, willingly and freely choose it, without any force or against our preference.

your right, its not in them, its in christ.
And yes, they can find that faith. if they only believe.. faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.
If faith is just given, the word is meaningless

Is faith not a gift (Php 1:19, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 28:27, Ro 12:3 )?

Yes. it rests in him, not in us
that's why faith is not a work. It is a work of God. who knows what we need to trust him, and individually will do all he can to bring that to fruition. Sadly also knowing in some they will never trust him no matter what.
remember, God told Abraham, your family will be held out of the eland for 400 years. because the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete.
there was still hope some would believe. it was not until there was nothing God could do to get them to believe. he told Israel to go in, and kill every last one of them (like the flood)
It says we are saved by grace through faith
if there is no possibility of faith. then there is no possibility of grace being applied.

I never deserved it. My faith did not save me, Gods grace did.
he just did not force me to receive it, he gave me and the rest of the world the option.. Take it and live, or do not believe and die. Just like he gave the children of Israel the choice. Trust me and look to the bronze serpent and live. or reject me and die
I am not arguing against this. Please stop insinuating I am
Salvation is the gift. Not faith.

Nevertheless, faith is a gift (Php 1:29), right?

 

[makesends]

A spiritually dead person can chose to do right or wrong. He can chose to sin or not sin. He can chose to walk here and there. He can see and he can walk.

A spiritually dead person can ONLY choose to sin. That is, no matter what is right or wrong, what is good or what is bad, in his eyes, is still corrupted by his enmity with God. Romans 8:8 "Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." I hope I don't need to further demonstrate the line of logic, there.
Do a good study of what it means to be In Christ. "...no longer I, but Christ in me."

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If that be the case, that would be grace also. Be thankful.
The alternative is not good.

it would be awful if God forced people.

you can not force people. then claim you are a God of love. nor can you refuse others the ability to believe and call yourself a God of love

remember Satan's lie that drug 1/3 of the angelic beings and deceived Eve, and deceives even today.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You will need to explain how that is the case.

Jesus said whoever believes is given (john 3)
Jesus said come to him, believe in him and you will be given life.

if Jesus just gives us faith..

then asking us to come to him is meaningless.. Because they would come no matter what.,.(even against their will)

When I say our faith rests in Christ, I mean that we are trusting in his person, and his work. You are using it some other way, which you will have to explain.

Actually this is what I say also

The reason saving faith is not a work is for the reason that Paul gives as its design. As something that we do not possess and must be given to us. Our natural condition rebels against it as foolishness. Christ and him crucified for the forgiveness of our sins is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentile (1 Cor 1:18-25).( Notice again in verse 24 we have the use of that word "called" in regard to the believer.)

No

the reason paul says it is not a work. because you did nothing to save yourself. You trusted in someone else to save you. If anything, You stopped working to try to live up to Gods standard. stopped trying to save yourself (religion) or stopped hiding the fact that you are guilty before a perfect God.

Saving faith is not a worldly, common, faith.

It is a faith which trust, it is confident it. It is not based on blind faith, but it is based on evidence.

true faith in anyone or anything is based on these things

if you do not have any of this, you do not really have faith.

Faith is not a religious term which has a meaning apart from its base meaning. It means what ist says

I trust the work of God. I have confidence in Gods work, and I am not basing this trust and confidence on blind faith. But on evidentiary proof (the word. the wintesses of the word. His creation, and the people I had seen changed by God. and by the people God put in my life to help draw me to himself,.

But I still had to trust him. I still could have said no and walked away. even with all the evidence

It is a unique faith that comes from God by way of his regenerating work in a person; and that gives something that no other faith can give---salvation from our sins, reconciliation with God, eternal life.

No. God does not regenerate us in a state of unbelief.

God is a perfect judge, a judge does not reverse his judgment until until payment is made..

Justification MUST precede regeneration. or else God is not a perfect judge

Means it had not yet reached a turning point, established by God, where judgement would fall on them. The judgment, in part, was the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, being brought into that land and a long with them, destruction by God through them.

Not sure what this means

Now you have presented God as neither omniscient or omnipotent. And there is no record of God ever trying to "get them to believe". In fact he tells Israel that he is revealing himself to them and only then, and no other nation. And that is what he did. He revealed himself as a covenant God, and the one true and living God, the God who enters history and acts in it, the God who speaks, hears, and controls nature. He showed them who he is. If only, his children adopted in Christ would remember that!

I guess we just ignore Nineveh, a gentile nation? and that God withheld Abraham's family for 400 years because the sin of the amorite was not yet complete (God was still working in them and they still had hope?

God told them to go kill. Because God knew their was no hope. and if they did not. they would contaminated Israel,

of interest is Israel disobeyed God. and what God warned them about happened.

I think you do not correctly understand what it means when it says we are saved by grace.

Grace means unmerited favor. or favor purchased by someone else.

I did not save myself. I had no part in my salvation, God did all the work. even my faith was his work.

So I think I understand Grace quite well.

but than you for your concern

You recognize the meaning of the word, but the impact of it has never struck you. I say that because when I was a "free willy" for the first twenty years of my adopting in Christ, I had that same problem and had not idea that I did. It was not until I came to Reformed theology that I was able to see it. So, I don't know how to clarify it for you, other than to say saved by grace means that it is only by the grace of God that that any are saved. What we deserve from Gen 3 on is nothing but judgment and wrath.

I do jnot know what turned you to reformed theology. I can not see any possible reason for it. And in all of my talking with reformed and reading reformed books. I have yet to find any reason to change my view.

But I do not know there are many beliefs out there. All unique. And we can not say just because I experienced free will at one time. we have experience what every person who believes in free will has experienced. Because this would not be true. I have seen people try to do thos so often. and because of it. misjudge the person they are trying to convince, saying they understood. when they had no understanding at all. Their version of free will was not even close to the one who he was trying to convince he was just like them before.

And God is under no obligation to extend this saving grace to anyone or to everyone.

I never said he was. No one has ever said he was.

But he said he did. so i will take what he said

He was sent to the world. not to judge (the world) but that they world MIGHT BE SAVED.

again, the word be saved here is in the aorist passive subjunctive case.

and again, the subjunctive case denotes a possibility, the passive case says it will not be done by the one who received, but by the one who gives. and the aorist case denotes a non specific time that this will continue..

in the greek. it is not a indicitive mood - Stating a fact or action that will happen

its not an imperative. stating it is an action we must accomplish

its not an infinitive or a verbal noun

it is a subjunctive, stating it is a possibility (maybe it will happen maybe it will not)

God died for the whole world (not just the elect) so that it MAY (there is a possibly it may) be saved.

We are not the center of the universe. Ever. God is always.

never said otherwise

And all that he does is for his glory, not ours.

again, never said otherwise

He gives faith through the work of regeneration and the indwelling of the Spirit to whom he pleases.

No. He gives the possibility one one to have faith so they can be justified and through justification, be regenerated.

You were saved because of his grace towards you, through faith, and that is a gift of God not of yourself. If all he did was give you an option, while you are dead and condemned in your sin my friend, you would still be dead and condemned in your sin.

Well I am glad you think that.

But I know what happened. And I am not dead. And I actually did not think God gave me a choice. I just knew I had to react. because God exposed my sin, and my despair and my bankrupt spirit..

And you cannot conflate two completely different types of covenants and interpret the one (NC which is a Covenant of Grace) by the other (OC which is a Covenant of Works). The Old is a bi-lateral covenant. The New is a unilateral covenant. Look those up if you need to.

I have not tried to do this. and have no idea what you even bring this up.

I did not insinuate that you did so stop insinuating that I did. Seriously. See how quickly it gets a bad reaction? Lets nip that right here and now.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have been studying scripture for quite a while myself, and there are things I do not understand, perhaps many things. Are you exempt? You understand everything?

No I am not exempt

but lets put it this way''If I say you probably do not unders. or you do not understand

And you say I do not understand, or I probably do not understand

where does our conversation go? we are both acussing each other. and nothing of value is being said.

I just want is to stick to the word. Not accuse people of something that in reality could go back to them as well.

Probably best we aree to disagree over this?

I am fine with this.. it is sometimes better to do this,. then tear each other down..