Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[Carbon]

@Eternally-Grateful
For example, there is a historical faith and there is a saving faith. Do you understand the difference?

And there is temporary faith. As those in Hebrews 6:5.

 

[makesends]

I am sorry, I tried to ask questions.. to help you understand better what I see.
Let me try to rephrase. Think of the people in your life you trust. Your parents. Your boss? Your Spouse? Your kids? Your best friend? (if you trust any of them)

What produced this faith you had in them?

did it just pop up out of no where? One second it was not there. the next second wow. you trust them completely)

Or was it earned, Did they earn your faith or trust in them, because they showed they could be trusted? (I do not believe in Blind faith.)

or was it given to you be the one you trusted? through time and effort showing you they could be trusted?



Actually no

The hearing does not produce faith

faith comes by hearing, and hearing by what? The word of God.

when you hear the word. does something happen. or is it dead I love this passage

Heb 4: 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

the reason people do not hear the word. Is because it cuts through them, it forces them to see God for who he is. and brings what they have been hiding to the surface.

Let me try to rephrase it

Faith come by hearing (if you do not hear. you can not believe

And hearing comes by the word (God, the logos, the word of God)

The word is the source of faith. But if you do not hear it. It will do no good.

That does not tell me what, according to you, does produce salvific faith, but only what, according to you, is its source.

 

[Carbon]

That does not tell me what, according to you, does produce salvific faith, but only what, according to you, is its source.

Sometimes I'm not sure if people actually know how to answer certain things. Know what I mean?

 

[Carbon]

And there is temporary faith. As those in Hebrews 6:5.

Then there is always that 4th kind of faith. Miraculous faith.
This is the faith that leads people to believe that they can perform miracles themselves or that miracles are to be performed on them.

 

[Eleanor]

Then there is always that 4th kind of faith. Miraculous faith.
This is the faith that leads people to believe that they can perform miracles themselves or that miracles are to be performed on them.

For me, it's either true faith (which saves) or counterfeit faith (which does not save).

 

[Carbon]

For me, it's either true faith (which saves) or counterfeit faith (which does not save).

Well, that's the bottom line.

 

[ReverendRV]

Assensus, Notitia and Fiducia...

More new words for EG..

 

[Carbon]

Assensus, Notitia and Fiducia...

More new words for EG..

Yes, the reformers also taught this. Saving faith includes these three elements. Knowledge, assent, and trust.

Charles Hodge said concerning this, "the faith which is required for salvation, is the act of the whole soul, of the understanding, of the heart, and of the will."

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes, the reformers also taught this. Saving faith includes these three elements. Knowledge, assent, and trust.

Charles Hodge said concerning this, "the faith which is required for salvation, is the act of the whole soul, of the understanding, of the heart, and of the will."

I like to say, our Trichotomous Essence involves these three faiths. Bodily, we Know and find it Noteworthy. Soulfully, we Assent that it's True; and are without excuses. Spiritually, we entrust ourselves to the Truth...

Of course, our Spirit needs to be Regenerated...

 

[Carbon]

Yes, the reformers also taught this. Saving faith includes these three elements. Knowledge, assent, and trust.

Charles Hodge said concerning this, "the faith which is required for salvation, is the act of the whole soul, of the understanding, of the heart, and of the will."

The presentation of the gospel does not in itself compel faith in the person. And this isn't because of any deficiency in the gospel.

(The lion of Princeton) Dr. Warfield said this: If evidence which is objectively adequate is not subjectively adequate, the fault is in us. If we are not accessible to musical evidence, then we are by nature unmusical, or in a present state of unmusicalness. If we are not accessible to moral evidence, then we are either unmoral or being moral beings, immoral."

 

[ReverendRV]

I like to say, our Trichotomous Essence involves these three faiths. Bodily, we Know and find it Noteworthy. Soulfully, we Assent that it's True; and are without excuses. Spiritually, we entrust ourselves to the Truth...

Of course, our Spirit needs to be Regenerated...

Allegory ~ by ReverendRV * January 9

Galatians 4:24 King James 2000; Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from mount Sinai, which brings forth to bondage, which is Hagar.

An Allegory is a story with symbolic Meaning that’s intended to help teach a lesson; IE “The Moral of the Story”. “Pilgrim’s Progress” is a famous Allegory intended to help us picture what the Bible teaches, it’s the second most published book after the Bible. I explained to someone what it meant to be spiritually dead, and I used an Allegory; we consist of Body and Soul, but a dead spirit. ~ Mr Body and Mr Soul were sitting around a fire and they started reminiscing about their old friend Mr Spirit who had passed away. Mr Soul asked Mr Body if he believed in God? Mr Body said I don’t believe in anything I can’t see. Hoping to convince Mr Body that God is real, Mr Soul thought that maybe he could convince Mr Body in a god ‘like’ the real God, so he gave that a try. All of the sudden out of the flames, Mr Spirit returned from the dead and told Mr Soul and Mr Body he has Discerned that God is real; then they all believed in God…

Saint Paul said, “Once I was alive apart from the Law; but when the Commandment came, Sin sprang to life and I died. ~ What do you call someone who always Lies? A Liar, right? Do you tell Lies? As a matter of fact, don’t you always tell Lies? The Ninth Commandment has come to you, and Sin sprang to life in you! What do you call someone who is famous for Stealing? A Thief, right? Have you Stolen before? As a matter of fact, don’t you always Steal? The Eighth Commandment has come to you, and more Sin has sprung to life and you’ve died. You are Separated from God; this is Spiritual Death. ~ These are just two of the Ten Commandments, do we need to continue? Jesus is the Judge of the world and said that Lust is Adultery and Hatred is Murder. If he judged you by this standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or Hell? Let me help you learn how to be Saved; you need the Gospel of Jesus Christ…

For God so loved the world, he gave us his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ lived his life without Sinning and earned a good record of Righteousness; this qualified him to be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world. He did this by bleeding to death on a Roman Cross, and by rising from the dead on the first Easter Sunday. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Living Savior Jesus Christ, without Working to Merit our Justification. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and go to a Bible loving Church…

1stThessalonians 5:23 KJV; And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Carbon]

Not without God’s help no

Do you believe God's way is just helping people along?

\A natural man, can not understand the things of God. And he will not be able to understand them

But illumination alone is not enough to enable a man to believe. The natural enmity against God must be done away with is we are to entrust ourselves to Christ. Don't you think?

But we are told he already understands God. That they are rightly condemned, and thus are without exuse

All God has to do is convince them he is trustworthy once he is saved, then God will help him understand doctrines and things of God they need to know to Grow

Sounds like a man just has to make a wish.

 

[Carbon]

Sounds like a man just has to make a wish.

I don't mean to sound rude, but in a sense, that's all it is is a wish. Where is it taught that a man can believe or disbelieve because he just chooses to?
Faith is an involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it. Faith is never a product of choice.
Also, isn't faith always grounded on what the mind considers sufficient evidence? of course, we know sometimes the mind considers weak evidence for strong evidence.

 

[Arial]

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity
Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Scripture teaches the natural man is blind to spiritual values and that the sinful heart is so far from yielding itself to loving trust towards God, since it is at enmity with God.

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

That reminds me of a situation where the Jews were speaking face to face with Jesus. They had seen him work many miracles and in John 6:33-37 we find this: "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

So, no, the external call of the gospel in and of itself cannot produce faith in the natural man. Wherever it produces faith, there the Holy Spirit has been first transforming the heart hard against God to one pliable in his hands, opening eyes and ears. "A man cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless he has been born again."

 

[Carbon]

That reminds me of a situation where the Jews were speaking face to face with Jesus. They had seen him work many miracles and in John 6:33-37 we find this: "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

So, no, the external call of the gospel in and of itself cannot produce faith in the natural man. Wherever it produces faith, there the Holy Spirit has been first transforming the heart hard against God to one pliable in his hands, opening eyes and ears. "A man cannot see the kingdom of heaven unless he has been born again."

Amen!

 

[Arial]

A natural man, can not understand the things of God. And he will not be able to understand them

But we are told he already understands God. That they are rightly condemned, and thus are without exuse

Let me get this straight. The natural man cannot understand the things of God. (1 Col ?) But scripture tells us (Romans 1)he already understands God? Paul wrote both those things. Did he contradict himself? Romans 1 does not tell us that the natural man understands God. It says we know of his existence by the things that are created. There is no saving knowledge of God gained from nature. And unregenerate man is always guilty and without excuse before a holy God no matter how much he does or doesn't know or understand.

All God has to do is convince them he is trustworthy once he is saved, then God will help him understand doctrines and things of God they need to know to Grow

Where is Jesus as the only way to God, in that "gospel'?

 

[Carbon]

Let me get this straight.

Yea right!

The natural man cannot understand the things of God. (1 Col ?) But scripture tells us (Romans 1)he already understands God? Paul wrote both those things. Did he contradict himself?

Right, it has to be one or the other. Can't be both.

 

[Eleanor]

I don't mean to sound rude, but in a sense, that's all it is is a wish. Where is it taught that a man can believe or disbelieve because he just chooses to?
Faith is an involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it. Faith is never a product of choice.

Yes and no. . .

You can read Scripture until the cows come home and not be able to believe it.

You can even want to believe it, and not be able to believe it, because you can't choose or make yourself believe what you do not believe.

Faith is the product of the new birth, where now you can choose to believe it because of the Holy Spirit's powerful witness to its truth.

Also, isn't faith always grounded on what the mind considers sufficient evidence?

What do you mean by evidence?

The only "evidence" for me was the unexpected power it had one day (in accompanying circumstances) when I read it, which it had never had before.

 

[Carbon]

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity
Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Scripture teaches the natural man is blind to spiritual values and that the sinful heart is so far from yielding itself to loving trust towards God, since it is at enmity with God.

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

It cannot.

Consider the description of the heart in its natural state.
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9.
&
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, acts of adultery, other immoral sexual acts, thefts, false testimonies, and slanderous statements. Matthew 15:19.

What an awful picture of the natural heart, the human heart in the unrenewed state, unregenerate. People may not be totally overtly acting out sin, but the evil is there, deeply embedded and hidden there. And it is only restrained by the power of God.
Consider,
Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of mankind among them are fully given to do evil. Ecc 8:11.
&
This is an evil in everything that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for everyone. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of mankind are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterward they go to the dead. Ecc 9:3.

So you believe God's way is just helping people along? Then, once they believe show and teach them more?

 

[Carbon]

Yes and no. . .

You can read Scripture until the cows come home and not be able to believe it.

You can even want to believe it, and not be able to believe it, because you can't choose or make yourself believe what you do not believe.

Faith is the product of the new birth, where now you can choose to believe it because of the Holy Spirit's powerful witness to its truth.

Amen sister!

What do you mean by evidence?

Well, when you're regenerated, isn't the gospel evidence?

The only "evidence" for me was the unexpected power it had one day (in accompanying circumstances) when I read it, which it had never had before.