Can a non elect person get saved?

[JIM]

To my mind Matthew 20 answers it. Does the owner of the vineyard not have the right to do as he pleases with his own money? So why object when he is generous towards some?

But the actions of the owner of the vineyard were in response to the actions of the workers. He did not select some ahead of time independent of the actions of the workers. If anything Matthew 20 shoots down the whole Calvinist concept of election.

Matthew 20 and the message of the laborers in the Vineyard is explaining that the receiving of eternal life is available to all, no matter when in life one believes and is saved, so long as he believes.

 

[Arial]

But the actions of the owner of the vineyard were in response to the actions of the workers. He did not select some ahead of time independent of the actions of the workers.

Read it again. The owner of the vineyard chose workers and paid them all the same regardless of how many hours they worked. The owner's choice in both instances. All he chose got paid.
Parable:

1. A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.
2. A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn.

If anything Matthew 20 shoots down the whole Calvinist concept of election.

It does the opposite.

Matthew 20 and the message of the laborers in the Vineyard is explaining that the receiving of eternal life is available to all, no matter when in life one believes and is saved, so long as he believes.

The message of the parable is 15."Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?"

16. "So the last will be first, and the first last." One's kingdom rewards are not based on the length of service.

 

[makesends]

At least you were hired for grace (elect/chosen), what about those who weren't?
Romans 4:4 ESV
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

They will be measured according to their own standard, and found wanting.

 

[David1701]

It would help if your answers contained Scripture rather than Evangelical talking points which do not answer my question.
The specific question is...How can God fairly judge someone who is not elect?
Maybe there is no Scriptural answer this side of eternity?
In the mean time, I'll settle for an explanation of Rom 9:20-21.

God can fairly judge someone who is not elect according to his works.

Matt. 25:41-46 (WEB)
41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Re. Rom. 9:20,21:

Rom. 9:13-24 (WEB)
13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
19 You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”
21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction,
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?

The "lump" from which God made all men was Adam. Adam fell, becoming corrupted, so that everyone who is descended from him is also corrupted (just as if a jug of milk becomes tainted and every glass poured out of it is, therefore, also tainted). God could justly have left us all in that corrupted state, but, instead, he chose to show entirely undeserved mercy to some.

 

[prism]

They will be measured according to their own standard, and found wanting.

And the only reason it will not be 'our own standard and found wanting' is because we were elect?

 

[prism]

God can fairly judge someone who is not elect according to his works.

Matt. 25:41-46 (WEB)
41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Taking the corollary into consideration...

(Mat 25:31) "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
(Mat 25:32) All the nations will be gathered before Him,
and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
(Mat 25:33) And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:34) Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(Mat 25:35) for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
(Mat 25:36) I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
(Mat 25:37) "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
(Mat 25:38) When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
(Mat 25:39) Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
(Mat 25:40) And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

Would mean we are saved by works, not grace.

18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
19 You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?”
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”
21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?

vs 20 is essentially my question, I guess the answer essentially is "God is God"...be thankful you aren't a 'non elect'?
It's either that or freewill with its accompanying boasts.

 

[David1701]

Taking the corollary into consideration...

(Mat 25:31) "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
(Mat 25:32) All the nations will be gathered before Him,
and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
(Mat 25:33) And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
(Mat 25:34) Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(Mat 25:35) for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
(Mat 25:36) I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
(Mat 25:37) "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
(Mat 25:38) When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
(Mat 25:39) Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
(Mat 25:40) And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

Would mean we are saved by works, not grace.

No; it means that our works are evidence of the grace of God in our lives, or the lack of it.

vs 20 is essentially my question, I guess the answer essentially is "God is God"...be thankful you aren't a 'non elect'?

Yes, that's true; however, it's also true that God will never be unjust and that, by definition, no-one deserves mercy and grace.

It's either that or freewill with its accompanying boasts.

Libertarian free will is a logical impossibility, quite apart from the boasting aspect; however, compatibilism is possible (in which man acts free from external coercion, but always according to his nature; and God works all things according to the counsel of his own will).

 

[prism]

No; it means that our works are evidence of the grace of God in our lives, or the lack of it.

Interesting as it involves the nations/Gentiles (v.32) and how they treated the Jews (v.40) (my brethren) during the Tribulation.

 

[David1701]

Interesting as it involves the nations/Gentiles (v.32) and how they treated the Jews (v.40) (my brethren) during the Tribulation.

Well, "my brethren" refers to those who believe in Jesus, whether from a Jewish or Gentile background. Mistreating Jews (or any other group) would clearly be an indication of something far wrong.