Bible Problem

[Carbon]

@Carbon excellent, excellent points. And lovin' the Greek under your screen name ("Jesus is Lord," right?). The example that comes to mind (and the only one I can think of right now off the top of my head) is bound to stir up a hornets nest (with just about everyone). I have yet to communicate it in a way that doesn't get misunderstood, and without people accusing me of heresy, and wanting to burn me at the stake (granted, it's a virtual, cyber-burning so less painful physically, but still not much fun). So, let me think about this, and mull this over for a bit, to see if I want to "go there" and dive into all that. It "only" strikes at one of the major pillars of the Reformation (yikes).

Okay. Take your time.

And yes, your correct “Jesus is Lord.”’

 

[David1701]

The 'Me' in John 14:14 is not in error.

What is in error is your attempt to use Matthew 6:9 to show Jesus isn't to be prayed to. This is foolish. He is the proper recipient of prayer (Acts 1:24-26; 7:59-60; Romans 10:12-14; 1 Corinthians 1:2; etc.). Furthermore, nowhere in Matthew 6:9 does the word 'only' appear. It doesn't teach we are to pray only to the Father. That is your misunderstanding.

Here are the Scriptures which you referenced. None of these mentions Christians praying to Jesus.

Acts 1:24-26 (VW)
24 And they prayed and said, You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship which Judas abandoned, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Praying to the "Lord" is something I do often, but it doesn't mean specifically praying to Jesus.

Acts 7:55-60 (WEB)
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and rushed at him with one accord.
58 They threw him out of the city, and stoned him. The witnesses placed their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
60 He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, don’t hold this sin against them!” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen actually saw Jesus and spoke to him. If you call that praying, then whenever the disciples spoke to Jesus, during his earthly ministry, they were praying.

Rom. 10:12,13 (WEB)
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.
13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

This is for the unsaved, calling out for the Lord to save them. I was referring to how Christians are told to pray.

1 Cor. 1:2 (VW) to the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

We pray to the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[David1701]

I agree.

Ya. And eventually united in the Catholic Church.

The catholic church, yes (with a small "c", meaning universal), although they were never disunited from the universal church; but not the Catholic "Church", which is a cult.

 

[David1701]

@David1701
Do you agree?

Sadly, no, I don't.

The Emperor Constantine wanted to unite his empire (broadly split between paganism and professing Christianity). He claimed to have become a Christian, then declared Christianity to be the official religion of the Roman Empire; however, much paganism was mixed in with Christianity at this time; and it was this mixture that became the so-called "Catholic Church". It was apostate right from the start.

The "Catholic Church" has always persecuted genuine Christians and tried to force them to accept the paganism that has been mixed in with Christianity. Those who refused were often tortured and murdered (e.g. the Vaudois).

 

[Fred]

Here are the Scriptures which you referenced. None of these mentions Christians praying to Jesus.

Acts 1:24-26 (VW)
24 And they prayed and said, You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship which Judas abandoned, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Praying to the "Lord" is something I do often, but it doesn't mean specifically praying to Jesus.

When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that whenever the following keys words from this prayer are found elsewhere in Scripture in association with the "Lord" then the "Lord" always refers to the Lord Jesus.
The passages in boldface are from the same author (Luke).
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" (anadeiknymi) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Luke 10:1).
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:2; cf. v. 6; Luke 6:13; cf. vv. 5, 46; John 6:70; cf. v. 68 and John 13:18; cf. vv. 13-14).
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:17; cf. v. 21; 20:24; 1 Corinthians 12:5; Ephesians 4:12; cf. Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 4:17; 1 Timothy 1:12).
4. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:5; cf. Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 9:2).

Acts 7:55-60 (WEB)
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and rushed at him with one accord.
58 They threw him out of the city, and stoned him. The witnesses placed their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
60 He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, don’t hold this sin against them!” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen actually saw Jesus and spoke to him. If you call that praying, then whenever the disciples spoke to Jesus, during his earthly ministry, they were praying.

Stephen saw Jesus when he was in the city. The prayer to the Lord Jesus took place when Stephen was thrown out of the city (v. 58), so your assertion fails.

Rom. 10:12,13 (WEB)
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.
13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

This is for the unsaved, calling out for the Lord to save them. I was referring to how Christians are told to pray.

This excuse won't work for 1 Corinthians 1:2.

1 Cor. 1:2 (VW) to the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

We pray to the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Total dodge of 1 Corinthians 1:2.

 

[David1701]

When the appellation "Lord" appears without reading "Lord Jesus" in Acts 1:24 it is important to keep in mind that whenever the following keys words from this prayer are found elsewhere in Scripture in association with the "Lord" then the "Lord" always refers to the Lord Jesus.
The passages in boldface are from the same author (Luke).
1. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "show" (anadeiknymi) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Luke 10:1).
2. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "chosen" (eklegomai) in Acts 1:24 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:2; cf. v. 6; Luke 6:13; cf. vv. 5, 46; John 6:70; cf. v. 68 and John 13:18; cf. vv. 13-14).
3. The "Lord" occurs along with the same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonia) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Acts 1:17; cf. v. 21; 20:24; 1 Corinthians 12:5; Ephesians 4:12; cf. Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 4:17; 1 Timothy 1:12).
4. The "Lord" occurs along the same Greek word for "apostleship" (apostolē) in Acts 1:25 - in reference to the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:5; cf. Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 9:2).

I agree that "Lord" often refers to Jesus, but it doesn't have to.

Stephen saw Jesus when he was in the city. The prayer to the Lord Jesus took place when Stephen was thrown out of the city (v. 58), so your assertion fails.

I'm not convinced that Stephen no longer saw Jesus, when he was outside the city, after all, it was heaven opened that he saw, and that would not necessarily depend upon his physical location.

Total dodge of 1 Corinthians 1:2.

It wasn't meant as a "dodge".

I don't really want to continue to argue about this, because I don't believe that the Lord (God) has a problem with people praying to Jesus. It's just that the specific instructions we have, are to pray to the Father, in Jesus' name.

Another thing is that the majority of extant Greek manuscripts attest to the reading without "Me", in John 14:14, representing the usage of the believing church, down through the ages. The Critical Text, in general, omits, or weakens, references to the Lord Jesus on numerous occasions and examples in the other direction are few indeed.

 

[Fred]

I agree that "Lord" often refers to Jesus, but it doesn't have to.

I supplied plenty of evidence that it does in Acts 1:24.
None of it was refuted.

I'm not convinced that Stephen no longer saw Jesus

The text doesn't say so.

It wasn't meant as a "dodge".

I don't really want to continue to argue about this, because I don't believe that the Lord (God) has a problem with people praying to Jesus. It's just that the specific instructions we have, are to pray to the Father, in Jesus' name.

We have specific instruction to pray to Jesus.
Ephesians 5:19 also teaches we are to sing to the Lord - and the Lord refers to Jesus.

Another thing is that the majority of extant Greek manuscripts attest to the reading without "Me", in John 14:14, representing the usage of the believing church, down through the ages. The Critical Text, in general, omits, or weakens, references to the Lord Jesus on numerous occasions and examples in the other direction are few indeed.

In addition to John 14:14, 1 Peter 3:15 is another example.

 

[NetChaplain]

There were always those who did not like and trust organized religions many were small (organized) groups. And please do not tell me the Baptist church goes all the way back to John the Baptist.

My apologies. Your right,

Thanks for the admission and hope we can communicate in a proper manner. A little more work still needed ("please do not tell me the Baptist church goes all the way back to John the Baptis").

God bless!

 

[TB2]

Sadly, no, I don't.

The Emperor Constantine wanted to unite his empire (broadly split between paganism and professing Christianity). He claimed to have become a Christian, then declared Christianity to be the official religion of the Roman Empire; however, much paganism was mixed in with Christianity at this time; and it was this mixture that became the so-called "Catholic Church". It was apostate right from the start.

The "Catholic Church" has always persecuted genuine Christians and tried to force them to accept the paganism that has been mixed in with Christianity. Those who refused were often tortured and murdered (e.g. the Vaudois).

See, we can't really do that. Have Catholics committed atrocities? Yes. But have Protestants, too? Yes. Does being a Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox guarantee that you are a "genuine" Christian? No. Only God alone is good. There are some things Catholics get right (or Orthodox or Protestant) that non-Catholics don't, and vice versa. I don't know anyone with perfect theology. There are positives and negatives about Catholicism. There were good things about the Reformation, but also some bad things that have resulted in misplaced theological teaching that have overemphasized some doctrines at the expense of others. We need to be careful not to make blanket statements that condemn large swaths of Christendom with a mere stroke of a broad brush.

 

[David1701]

I supplied plenty of evidence that it does in Acts 1:24.
None of it was refuted.




The text doesn't say so.



We have specific instruction to pray to Jesus.
Ephesians 5:19 also teaches we are to sing to the Lord - and the Lord refers to Jesus.




In addition to John 14:14, 1 Peter 3:15 is another example.

1 Peter 3:15 (WEB) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear

I don't see how this verse supports your case. You seem to be assuming that every mention of "Lord" refers specifically to Jesus; but, this is simply not the case.

 

[David1701]

See, we can't really do that. Have Catholics committed atrocities? Yes. But have Protestants, too? Yes. Does being a Catholic or Protestant or Orthodox guarantee that you are a "genuine" Christian? No. Only God alone is good. There are some things Catholics get right (or Orthodox or Protestant) that non-Catholics don't, and vice versa. I don't know anyone with perfect theology. There are positives and negatives about Catholicism. There were good things about the Reformation, but also some bad things that have resulted in misplaced theological teaching that have overemphasized some doctrines at the expense of others. We need to be careful not to make blanket statements that condemn large swaths of Christendom with a mere stroke of a broad brush.

What things do Roman Catholics, allegedly, "get right" that Christians don't?

Remember that RCs worship a wafer; they venerate relics; they commit mariolatry; they believe in a mediatorial priesthood; they bow down before statues and pictures; they practise penance; they teach that non-Christians can be saved (including atheists!), as long as they live as well as they can, by the light they supposedly have; they teach that it is necessary for salvation to acknowledge the alleged primacy of the so-called "Pope"; they pronounce a curse on anyone who rejects transubstantiation, etc., etc..

Yes, there will be some saved RCs (Charles Chiniquy was an historical example); but, they do not accept the pagan dogma of RCism and they believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[Fred]

1 Peter 3:15 (WEB) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear

1 Peter 3:15 is another example where a version such as the NASB demonstrates the Lord Jesus is God, while the KJV does not.

1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.

The same Greek word for "sanctify" is used in reference to prayer to the Father in Matthew 6:9 ('hallowed" in the KJV).
The Lord Jesus is equally the proper recipient of prayer.

Furthermore, Peter quotes Isaiah 8:13 and applies the Lord (YHWH) from that text in reference to Jesus here. Thus, proving Jesus is YHWH.

You seem to be assuming that every mention of "Lord" refers specifically to Jesus

Not true (Matthew 11:25; Acts 4:24; James 3:9 in the NASB; Revelation 11:15; 21:22).

 

[TB2]

What things do Roman Catholics, allegedly, "get right" that Christians don't?

Remember that RCs worship a wafer; they venerate relics; they commit mariolatry; they believe in a mediatorial priesthood; they bow down before statues and pictures; they practise penance; they teach that non-Christians can be saved (including atheists!), as long as they live as well as they can, by the light they supposedly have; they teach that it is necessary for salvation to acknowledge the alleged primacy of the so-called "Pope"; they pronounce a curse on anyone who rejects transubstantiation, etc., etc..

Yes, there will be some saved RCs (Charles Chiniquy was an historical example); but, they do not accept the pagan dogma of RCism and they believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

There are so many misconceptions Protestants have about Catholics and vice versa. The best way to answer your questions is to put them before a Catholic and wait for the response. I don't agree with all of Catholic teaching, but all the posts I read by Catholics lament how tired they are of being accused of worshipping wafers or worshipping saints or worshipping Mary, when according to the Catholics I've read they do not, and they believe in salvation and justification by faith too, and say that Protestants always misunderstand the works part. Now is that actually true? I don't know. I'm not Catholic. But I've read enough things by Catholics to know that their theology is more nuanced than the typical Protestant talking points make it out to be. I'm just saying.

Are there any Catholics here who can weigh in and enlighten the conversation?

(Even in the end if we discover Catholic and Protestant differences to be irreconcilable, I still would like to understand better what it is that I am or am not rejecting, and like I said I've seen enough Catholic posts lamenting how Protestants always get Catholic theology wrong, that I feel like it can't hurt to hear what the Catholics say on this. I for one do not feel qualified to speak for them)

 

[Fred]

but all the posts I read by Catholics lament how tired they are of being accused of worshipping wafers or worshipping saints or worshipping Mary, when according to the Catholics I've read they do not

Irrelevant, because the Bible teaches that is what they are doing.

 

[TB2]

Irrelevant, because the Bible teaches that is what they are doing.

The Bible (which predates Catholicism) teaches that that's what Catholics (who didn't exist at the time the NT was written) are doing?

 

[David1701]

1 Peter 3:15 is another example where a version such as the NASB demonstrates the Lord Jesus is God, while the KJV does not.

1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.

The same Greek word for "sanctify" is used in reference to prayer to the Father in Matthew 6:9 ('hallowed" in the KJV).
The Lord Jesus is equally the proper recipient of prayer.

Furthermore, Peter quotes Isaiah 8:13 and applies the Lord (YHWH) from that text in reference to Jesus here. Thus, proving Jesus is YHWH.



Not true (Matthew 11:25; Acts 4:24; James 3:9 in the NASB; Revelation 11:15; 21:22).

Except that, once again, the NASB is not following the large majority of Greek manuscripts, in 1 Pet. 3:15. It's following a minority reading that is, almost certainly, incorrect.

Here are a few translations based on the Majority Text (and some based on the very similar TR), which is the text-type used by the believing churches, down through the ages.

1 Pet. 3:15 (WPNT) Rather, sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready with an answer for everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with meekness13 and respect;

1 Pet. 3:15 (WEB) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:

1 Pet. 3:15 (EMTV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be prepared with a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

1 Pet. 3:15 (Geneva) But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready alwayes to giue an answere to euery man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you, with meekenesse and reuerence,

1 Pet. 3:15 (KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

1 Pet. 3:15 (YLT) and the Lord God sanctify in your hearts. And [be] ready always for defence to every one who is asking of you an account concerning the hope that [is] in you, with meekness and fear;

1 Pet. 3:15 (NKJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

1 Pet. 3:15 (MEV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts. Always be ready to give an answer to every man who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you, with gentleness and fear.

 

[David1701]

There are so many misconceptions Protestants have about Catholics and vice versa. The best way to answer your questions is to put them before a Catholic and wait for the response. I don't agree with all of Catholic teaching, but all the posts I read by Catholics lament how tired they are of being accused of worshipping wafers or worshipping saints or worshipping Mary, when according to the Catholics I've read they do not, and they believe in salvation and justification by faith too, and say that Protestants always misunderstand the works part. Now is that actually true? I don't know. I'm not Catholic. But I've read enough things by Catholics to know that their theology is more nuanced than the typical Protestant talking points make it out to be. I'm just saying.

Are there any Catholics here who can weigh in and enlighten the conversation?

(Even in the end if we discover Catholic and Protestant differences to be irreconcilable, I still would like to understand better what it is that I am or am not rejecting, and like I said I've seen enough Catholic posts lamenting how Protestants always get Catholic theology wrong, that I feel like it can't hurt to hear what the Catholics say on this. I for one do not feel qualified to speak for them)

I have quite a good understanding of Romanism, thanks.

They certainly do worship a wafer (they say that it becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus), which they sometimes parade around in a monstrance to be worshipped.

They teach that Mary is a "Mediatrix" and "Co-redemptrix".

They teach that you maintain your justification by your good works.

Now, not all RCs know everything that their organisation expects them to believe, but that's a different matter.

 

[TB2]

I have quite a good understanding of Romanism, thanks.

They certainly do worship a wafer (they say that it becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus), which they sometimes parade around in a monstrance to be worshipped.

They teach that Mary is a "Mediatrix" and "Co-redemptrix".

They teach that you maintain your justification by your good works.

Now, not all RCs know everything that their organisation expects them to believe, but that's a different matter.

Like I said, let's let Catholics speak for themselves

 

[Carbon]

Thanks for the admission and hope we can communicate in a proper manner. A little more work still needed ("please do not tell me the Baptist church goes all the way back to John the Baptis").

God bless!

That I won't apologize for, you can tell me that if you like but I think it's total nonsense. Sorry.

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Just to let you know, that only the KJV and translations like it retain the entire Bible (like YLY). All the modern translations (except NKJV) omit hundreds of Scripture words, phrases and sometimes even entire passages (Mat 4:4).

Did you know that the KJV omits the word 'God' at 1John 5:12.

How do you know? Please provide a list of missing scripture.

James White is one of my Pastors. The Author of The King James Only Controversy. He can refute any KJVO nonsense. If you prefer the KJV, that's fine. I use mine all the time. But the material you have posted has long been dealt with and found to be in error. Think it over.