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Atheists have no evidence to proclaim that God does not exist

That is referring to the discredited idea that things like fleas or maggots arise spontaneously from non-living matter, an archaic idea long-held that was eventually debunked over 150 years ago by Pasteur and others. It is not referring to the origin of life itself.

It is also not a scientific law; it is just "biogenesis," the observation that individual organisms arise by reproduction from other organisms. Thus, we learned that maggots are the offspring of flies, for example. In science, the terms law, theory, and hypothesis have fairly specific definitions. Biogenesis is not a scientific law because it doesn't describe a universal and mathematical relationship between variables (e.g., law of gravity, Stokes's law, conservation of energy, and so on). More importantly, all experimental tests of biogenesis dealt with complex life under current circumstances and environments. Simple life arising from non-living matter under circumstances and environments very different from what we observe today (e.g., four billion years ago) was never tested. That's the biggest reason why it isn't a scientific law (and can't be). It could become a law if efforts were made to test its universality—perhaps by creationist organizations?

It is only creationist sources that refer to it as a law. I wrote a Reddit post about it two years ago (2021).

-----

Sources:

DialecticSkeptic, "'The law of biogenesis' is not a thing," Reddit, July 4, 2021.
I put it to you, that in order for something physical to "exist" it had to come from somewhere.

Can you explain where matter came from?
Can you explain how one kind of animal evolved into another kind of animal. (Apes into Humans and what evidence you have for that)

Can you also explain how the law of entropy does not influence evolution?
 
My challenge to you was: Please explain how a catastrophic global flood over 4,000 years ago could have messed with our efforts at radiometric dating today.
Then please explain how a catastrophic global flood over 4,000 years ago could NOT have messed with our efforts at radiometric dating today?

How can you prove it did not? Science has no example or any way to prove that the Biblical global flood could not mess with radiometric dating at all when they are assuming there was no global calamity within the last 55,000 years thus denying the Biblical global flood!!!!

I believe the asteroid impacts on the earth & the moon had occurred at the time of the Biblical global flood.

Science has no way of determining that extra factor from the outside can mess with the rate of decay of radiometric dating or not.
 
"Can you explain where matter came from?" ..... no, they can not

any more than they can explain how a book displays a romance novel or a parts catalog apart from an outside intelligence.
did the book create the letters and lines sequence its self ?? .... indeed not


Beginning in the late 19th century, many intellectuals began to insist that scientific knowledge conflicts with traditional theistic belief — that science and belief in God are “at war.” Philosopher of science Stephen Meyer challenges this view by examining three scientific discoveries with decidedly theistic implications. Building on the case for the intelligent design of life that he developed in Signature in the Cell and Darwin’s Doubt, Meyer demonstrates how discoveries in cosmology and physics coupled with those in biology help to establish the identity of the designing intelligence behind life and the universe.

Meyer argues that theism — with its affirmation of a transcendent, intelligent and active creator — best explains the evidence we have concerning biological and cosmological origins. Previously Meyer refrained from attempting to answer questions about “who” might have designed life. Now he provides an evidence-based answer to perhaps the ultimate mystery of the universe. In so doing, he reveals a stunning conclusion: the data support not just the existence of an intelligent designer of some kind — but the existence of a personal God.


https://stephencmeyer.org/





.....
 
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Oh no. Not this again. @DialecticSkeptic is correct. @ChristB4us we've talked about this on other threads. There is no evidence that heat, pressure, floods have any affect on decay rates. But for sake of argument let's say that all the decay rates accelerated during a one year global flood as YECs claim in the ICR RATE Project. Even YECs admit that this amount of accelerated decay during a single year would generate enough heat to boil away the entire ocean and partially melt the Earth's crust.
For murder crime scenes, how is it that freezing a corpse can change the time of death?

And if heating the corpse can speed up decay, would that not affect determining the time of death?

Then you have the reservoir effect for why science DID test living snails and living mollusks to be way older and dead.

Then you have this;

Marine Radiocarbon Reservoir Effect

  • Carbon 14 or radiocarbon is continually being formed in the atmosphere. Theoretically, the radiocarbon concentration in the atmosphere is the same in oceans and the biosphere through equilibrium. (***<---- It is NOT!!! )
  • Due to marine reservoir effect, the radiocarbon content of terrestrial organisms is not the same as marine organisms. (*** DUH )
  • Marine reservoir effect correction factors for different oceans in the world have been established and recorded in a database. (*** WRONG !!!)

"The basis of radiocarbon dating includes the assumption that there is a constant level of carbon 14 in the atmosphere and therefore in all living organisms through equilibrium. Carbon 14 is a naturally occurring isotope of the element carbon and is called radiocarbon. It is unstable and weakly radioactive." ~~~~end of quote Note ( **** added notes from me )

@DialecticSkeptic

Meteorites Reveal Radioactive Heating in Asteroids

Sun-Warmed Asteroids, or Something Else?​


Modeled thermal history of the meteorite’s parent asteroid. The black and white lines mark temperatures of 0°C and 70°C, respectively. Note that the color scale in the figure gives the temperature in kelvin. [Fujiya et al. 2022]

The authors identified three possible heat sources: solar radiation, impacts by other asteroids, and the decay of radioactive materials. Given the rapid formation of the calcite crystals, the authors concluded that radioactive decay is the most likely heat source for this asteroid; impact heating and solar heating occur intermittently or slowly over billions of years, while radioactive materials churn out heat for just a few million years. end of quote

That is the outside factor for why you cannot say the rate of decay was not affected as I believe the asteroids impacts had occurred at the time of the Biblical global flood to alter and thereby change that rate of decay before it "settled" again.

When science continues to deny the Biblical global flood, they are just groping in the dark in favoring the evolution theory as if it is real science when it is not.

You do not want to believe it? Then I cannot help you.
 
Then please explain how a catastrophic global flood over 4,000 years ago could NOT have messed with our efforts at radiometric dating today?
Reverse that. Literally millions of precise measurements of radioactive decay under various conditions of heat, temp, and so on, show no effect on rates of decay. So, it's just the opposite. You're the one who needs to experimentally demonstrate that rising and falling sea levels during a flood affect rates of radioactive decay. Just saying it doesn't make it true. You need to provide experimental evidence to back it up
 
For murder crime scenes, how is it that freezing a corpse can change the time of death?

And if heating the corpse can speed up decay, would that not affect determining the time of death?
Because corpse decay is a chemical process that ultimately derives from the electromagnetic force. Whereas radioactive decay is a nuclear process that is very different from normal everyday chemical reactions that is related to the strong and weak nuclear forces, not the electromagnetic force.
Then you have the reservoir effect for why science DID test living snails and living mollusks to be way older and dead
Yes, and do you know the date of that article? 1963. I remember reading about that in my YEC propaganda days and being incensed at how scientists could lie about this (oblivious to the fact that they were the ones reporting it), and how could they rely on such a clearly unreliable dating method that gave an age of thousands of years for *living* mollusks.

Then, I did something that I recommend you start doing too. I got a copy of the actual 1963 article and read it for myself. And guess what I discovered? It was the YECs who were being dishonest and not telling the whole truth. The YECs didn't tell the whole story that the scientists explained the reason for the spurious results, and how to spot this problem and correct for it in the future. Ergo, it's no longer a problem and hasn't been a problem since 1963!

You complain about possibilities of contamination but then refuse to accept that scientists are not only aware of such possibilities but know how to determine whether such contamination has occurred
. And if they determine it has, they toss the spurious dates.

Listen, I don't care if a person is a YEC or an OEC or whatever, but misrepresenting another person's work is dishonest and not Christ-like
Carbon 14 or radiocarbon is continually being formed in the atmosphere. Theoretically, the radiocarbon concentration in the atmosphere is the same in oceans and the biosphere through equilibrium. (***<---- It is NOT!!! )
Yes, THEORETICALLY it is
Due to marine reservoir effect, the radiocarbon content of terrestrial organisms is not the same as marine organisms. (*** DUH )
But in REALITY it's not, due to the Marine Reservoir Effect ("DUH" lol 😆 like you know). They're explaining the situation. There's nothing nefarious going on.
Marine reservoir effect correction factors for different oceans in the world have been established and recorded in a database. (*** WRONG !!!)
No, YOU'RE WRONG. We have extensive databases to correctly calibrate radiocarbon dating. Do you not see what you just did? Do you not see your bias? Do you not see how you are picking and choosing what you want to believe? You are looking for what you perceive as problems and then cherry picking those, while ignoring and even rejecting the solutions scientists then say they have for those same problems all within the same article!! That is dishonest! I know you're not intentionally doing it, but you're still misrepresenting what people say.

*RADIOCARBON DATING is a very tricky thing that's easy to get wrong if you're not a professionally trained expert on the subject. But it doesn't matter, because as I've told you, radiocarbon dating IS NOT USED in paleontology for specimens >50,000 years.

*For paleontology we use a variety of different, independent radiometric dating methods that provide cross checks on accuracy (and don't use radiocarbon C-14 dating). The go-to today is URANIUM-LEAD ZIRCON CRYSTAL DATING, because of the near indestructability of zircon crystals and their resistance to weather and erosion. EVERY zircon crystal is inspected for fractures and cracks that would allow possible contamination. And those that have cracks and fractures are tossed from the get-go and not used.

1. It does no good for you to keep complaining that radioactive decay rates can be altered by a flood unless you can provide experimental evidence to prove it. As long as you continue to repeat your spurious claim, I will continue to point this out.
2. Radiocarbon dating is irrelevant to paleontology (as I've already repeatedly told you), so even if there are problems with it, that irrelevant to the age of fossils.
3. It does no good for you to keep complaining that radioactive samples can be contaminated, when scientists already know this and control for this, and now have tests to determine if there has been contamination.

4. If you continue to complain about possible contamination of radioactive samples, while failing to acknowledge that scientists know about these problems and control for them, then you are being DISHONEST.
 
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Reverse that. Literally millions of precise measurements of radioactive decay under various conditions of heat, temp, and so on, show no effect on rates of decay. So, it's just the opposite. You're the one who needs to experimentally demonstrate that rising and falling sea levels during a flood affect rates of radioactive decay. Just saying it doesn't make it true. You need to provide experimental evidence to back it up
You would have to ignore the obvious of what had caused that Biblical global flood and I say it is all those asteroid impacts on the moon & the earth that has caused it.
 
*RADIOCARBON DATING is a very tricky thing that's easy to get wrong if you're not a professionally trained expert on the subject. But it doesn't matter, because as I've told you, radiocarbon dating IS NOT USED in paleontology for specimens >50,000 years.

*For paleontology we use a variety of different, independent radiometric dating methods that provide cross checks on accuracy (and don't use radiocarbon C-14 dating). The go-to today is URANIUM-LEAD ZIRCON CRYSTAL DATING, because of the near indestructability of zircon crystals and their resistance to weather and erosion. EVERY zircon crystal is inspected for fractures and cracks that would allow possible contamination. And those that have cracks and fractures are tossed from the get-go and not used.
You just admitted that radiocarbon dating is used for Paleontology for less than 55,000 years but when it is greater, they use that other method URANIUM-LEAD ZIRCON CRYSTAL DATING

Thing is; what assigns what is greater than 55,000 years? The evolution theory time table. That is why you will get a wrong answer every time in your field of science.

So discussion is over. Thank you for sharing.
 
You just admitted that radiocarbon dating is used for Paleontology for less than 55,000 years but when it is greater, they use that other method URANIUM-LEAD ZIRCON CRYSTAL DATING

Thing is; what assigns what is greater than 55,000 years? The evolution theory time table. That is why you will get a wrong answer every time in your field of science.

So discussion is over. Thank you for sharing
No. Get those conspiracies out of your head. You are speaking falsehoods. Do you know how much evolution has to do with old ages? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Geochronology is a completely different scientific field from evolutionary biology. The "dates" in the geologic column are determined independently from evolutionary theory. The "dates" are not assumed, they are *measured*.

Let me tell you a true story. About 5-6 years ago, a scientific team published a research method that showed how you could use RADIOCARBON dating to accurately determine the age of dinosaur fossils (except for the fact that you can't! It's impossible! It doesn't work, because during the fossilization process the original bone gets replaced with entirely new carbon minerals. None of the carbon is original, so you can't carbon date dinosaurs bones; any "dates" you get are meaningless).

Well that didn't stop this research team from trying. They showed how you can supposedly calibrate and use statistics to estimate carbon replacement and blah, blah, blah, long story short, Voila! The dinosaurs bones were found to be millions of years old in agreement with evolution.

Do you wanna know what happened? Their research was REJECTED by the secular scientific community EVEN THOUGH THE DATA AGREED WITH EVOLUTION, because their methodology was flawed!!!

So, no, dates are not assumed on the basis of evolution. But scientists do REJECT dates EVEN WHEN THEY AGREE WITH EVOLUTION.
 
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I put it to you, that in order for something physical to "exist" it had to come from somewhere.

Which is true of all contingent being (with regard to its mode of existence). Only necessary being is self-existent.


Can you explain where matter came from?

Yes. (I had to explain this just the other day.) According to theoretical physics, including quantum chromodynamics (a type of quantum field theory), matter emerged as a result of a phase transition from a state of pure energy in the early universe, involving quarks and gluons. Quarks and gluons appeared as fluctuations in the quantum fields soon after the early rapid expansion of the universe, which was possibly triggered by or coinciding with the decay of the inflaton field that lowered the energy density and flattened the space curvature. (This is why an oscillating universe model is basically impossible, because matter can't be converted back into space curvature, thanks to entropy.)


Can you explain how one kind of animal evolved into another kind of animal?

No, because no clear and consistent definition of biological "kind" has ever been provided. You may as well be asking whether I can explain how one quhal of animal evolves into another quhal of animal.

I can, however, explain how one species evolves into another species.

(By the way, asking how apes can evolve into humans is like asking how felines can evolve into cats. Just as cats are felines, so humans are hominids.)


Can you also explain how the law of entropy does not influence evolution?

Yes. The obvious clue is that super bright, warm thing you see in the sky every day. Life processes can decrease entropy locally by creating order and complexity. This is possible because these processes are coupled with other processes that increase entropy more than enough to compensate for the local decrease. For example, life and photosynthesis depend on the energy from the Sun, which is a source of high-entropy radiation. By converting hydrogen into helium through nuclear fusion, the Sun increases its entropy. The radiation from the Sun is absorbed by the Earth and re-emitted as low-entropy heat into space. The net result is that the entropy of the Sun-Earth-Space system increases, even though some parts of the system decrease their entropy.
 
Can you explain how one kind of animal evolved into another kind of animal.
This is a misunderstanding of evolution. Animals don't evolve from one kind into another (that's the old anagenesis view), they speciate/split and diverge from one another over time
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Yes. (I had to explain this just the other day.) According to theoretical physics, including quantum chromodynamics (a type of quantum field theory), matter emerged as a result of a phase transition from a state of pure energy in the early universe, involving quarks and gluons.
I am going to stop here for now.

Where did the pure energy and an early universe come from?

You are already going outside of the scope of my question.
 
No, because no clear and consistent definition of biological "kind" has ever been provided. You may as well be asking whether I can explain how one quhal of animal evolves into another quhal of animal.

I can, however, explain how one species evolves into another species.

(By the way, asking how apes can evolve into humans is like asking how felines can evolve into cats. Just as cats are felines, so humans are hominids.)

I do not wonder why such a definition does not exist, as proponents of evolution will find themselves stumped, and therefore decline defining something or they change the definition.
It is much like the Vaxers who had to change the definition of a vaccine to fit their narrative.

Asking how an Ape evolved into a human is a legitimate question and unlike cats or felines, humans and gorillas differ not only physically. Have you seen a gorilla worship the living God?

How many good mutations had to take place in sequence in order to improve the gorilla/chimp/resus or whatever into evolving into a human?

A species like a dog can evolve into a species that is not a dog?
 
This is a misunderstanding of evolution. Animals don't evolve from one kind into another (that's the old anagenesis view), they speciate/split and diverge from one another over time
So your theory is that there is a gradual split and that it is still continuing today.

Can you point to such a split that is currently in process?

Surely something started splitting in a species that is billions of years old... or we do not have any such old species... or are apes billions of years old... or did they split at the same times humans did.... or... or...
 
So your theory is that there is a gradual split and that it is still continuing today.

Can you point to such a split that is currently in process?

Surely something started splitting in a species that is billions of years old... or we do not have any such old species... or are apes billions of years old... or did they split at the same times humans did.... or... or...
We have observed speciation in real-time. We have observed instantaneous speciation happen in a single step, such as during a whole genome duplication event.
 
Can you also explain how the law of entropy does not influence evolution?
Not a problem for biological evolution. But is a problem for the origin of life.
 
@Manfred

I will tell you this. You (and I and others) were right to question neo-darwinian selection-mutation theory. Random mutation with natural selection is *not* sufficient to explain life's diversity.

Modern understanding about evolution has radically changed even just in the past 20-40 with advances in genomics and molecular biology.

Instead of the Modern Synthesis (which was never entirely successful), we now have the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis. Natural selection is not sufficient to explain evolution, and the vast majority of changes (mutations) in genomes are neither lethal deleterious nor positive advantageous. But neutral to slightly negative with little to no effect on the organism.

Not only that, in a rather stunning turn of events, we've learned that most mutations are not *accidents* but under biological control. Mutations are still random in terms of what DNA change occurs, but *not* random in frequency, or where they occur in genomes, and they're not "accidents" but under biological control. Similar to the random assortment of genes during cellular meiosis. It's random but under biological control.

For example, the now well documented SOS Response in bacteria. During starvation, the SOS response kicks in in bacteria where in response to starvation, bacteria will purposely switch from using a high fidelity DNA Polymerase enzyme that makes few mistakes when copying DNA during DNA replication to low fidelity polymerases. Bacteria switch from an enzyme that rarely makes any mistakes to an enzyme that makes lots of mistakes and then switches back when starvation is no longer an issue. It's sort of a hail Mary mechanism in the hopes a new genetic variant will be more adaptive to the environmental stressor.

Instead of seeing evolution as a series of accidental events, a substantial amount of evidence has been amassed in recent decades that show cells have built-in "evolvability" mechanisms that enable read-write modifications of genomes. Genomic evolution is largely under biologic evolution and occurs via controlled cellular, genetic, and viral mechanisms that allow changes in genomes in a biologically controlled way that is not accidental or haphazard. "Natural Genetic Engineering" as it's been called (* in truth, we didn't actually invent genetic engineering, but learned what cells were already doing).

This has made biological evolution all the easier to explain, but the origin of life and the origin of such "evolvability" mechanisms all the more difficult to explain.
 
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Where did the pure energy and an early universe come from?

It came from God, of course, as everything does. That is our theological understanding. But we still don't understand it scientifically because the Standard Model of particle physics breaks down at the Planck scale, where quantum effects of gravity become significant. Until someone develops a complete theory of quantum gravity that can describe the physics at such high energies and densities as existed in the early universe—that is, prior to the inflationary period—our theological understanding is all we have for now. A scientific understanding will have to wait.


So, speculation—at best!

I am beginning to suspect that you're not arguing in good faith. It's possible (but unlikely) that you genuinely don't know what theoretical means in the context of physics, but someone engaging in this kind of discussion should, at a minimum, know that it doesn't mean speculative. I will charitably assume for now that you're just uninformed and explain to you that "theoretical" in physics refers to mathematical systems for describing reality, which are tested against experimental observations and empirical data (e.g., discovering the Higgs boson with the Large Hadron Collidor).

NOTE: A person is arguing in bad faith if he's not being honest or sincere in his arguments or has ulterior motives or hidden agendas. He may use fallacies, distortions, misrepresentations, or personal attacks to undermine his opponent's position or credibility. He may also refuse to acknowledge valid points, evidence, or counter-arguments, or change the subject when challenged. He may not be interested in finding the truth or reaching a mutual understanding, but rather in winning the argument or advancing his own interests. A Christian should never be guilty of this but, unfortunately, it happens.

I do not wonder why such a definition does not exist, as proponents of evolution will find themselves stumped and therefore decline defining something or they change the definition. It is much like the vaxxers who had to change the definition of a vaccine to fit their narrative.

I am dumbstruck that you need to be told this but the term "kind" is not something that proponents of evolution need to define—because it's not a term they use. It is a creationist term, also known as baramin (created kind) and still, despite 60 years of prolific creationist publications, no clear and consistent definition has ever been provided. I can't explain how one kind of animal evolved into another kind of animal because I have no idea what kind even means.


Asking how [apes evolved into humans] is a legitimate question ...

I wasn't disputing or questioning its legitimacy. I said it's like asking how felines evolved into cats. Just as cats ARE felines, so humans ARE hominids (apes).

Yes, there are many differences between humans and gorillas, including the obvious morphological differences. But humans did not evolve from gorillas, nor vice-versa, so I am missing whatever your point was. There is something like ten million years of evolution between humans and gorillas, so clear differences should be expected.

And, no, I've never seen a gorilla worship the living God. (In fact, I've never seen a gorilla, period.) But it would not surprise me if it does, in its own way unrecognizable to us: "Let everything that has breath praise the LORD" (Ps 150:6; cf. Rev 5:13).


How many good mutations had to take place in sequence in order to improve the gorilla/chimp/resus or whatever into evolving into a human?

Humans did not evolve from orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, or bonobos, much less rhesus monkeys (which are Old World monkeys). There are 30 million years of evolution between humans and rhesus macaques, 14 million years of evolution between humans and orangutans, 10 million years between humans and gorillas, and 7 million years between humans and chimpanzees (and bonobos).

Think of it like this: You have population X that split into two populations, A and B. At this point, they are the same species but two different populations. Fast-forward 10 million years through some speciation and extinction events and now A and B are no longer the same species—but at no point of that history did A evolve from B, nor did B evolve from A. Go back 10 million years and you'll see they were the same species and in the same population X (which was neither A or B).


A species like a dog can evolve into a species that is not a dog?

If some wolves (Canis lupus) could evolve into dogs (Canis familiaris), it's not difficult to suppose that some dogs could evolve into a species that is not-dog.


So, your argument is that the Sun is not subject to entropy?

This is another reason why I'm beginning to suspect that you're not arguing in good faith, because you're asking questions that defy my response. I said very clearly that, "by converting hydrogen into helium through nuclear fusion, the Sun increases its entropy." That is why I called the Sun "a source of high-entropy radiation." That point was fundamental to the argument I was making about decreased entropy in this part of the system coinciding with significantly increased entropy in that part of the system, whereby the entropy of the system overall relentlessly increases.
 
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