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Atheists have no evidence to proclaim that God does not exist

you see DialeticSkeptic ..... you're not going to ever 'figger out' scientifically how 'anything began' ....
it's not humanly possible, because 'Man' has not the ability to remove 'time' from the equation .....
Man has not the ability to reach into a place where 'time' does not exist.


Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear ........ Hebrews 11:3







.....
 
I'm confident that Manfred has been observed, that atoms and organic compounds are not alive, and that Manfred is.

So, once again, what did I say (here) that conflicts with basic biology?
How about the Law of Biogenesis that life did not come from nothing but life comes from similar life? This testifies to an Intelligent Designer hence the Word of God as God and therefore reality is subjected to God and not the other way around.

Like Jesus is Lord of the sabbath and not the other way around.
 
How about the Law of Biogenesis, that life did not come from nothing but life comes from similar life?

Do you have a source for this law, one that is scientific? Or is this law found only in young-earth creationist sources?
 
Do you have a source for this law, one that is scientific? Or is this law found only in young-earth creationist sources?
Apparently, it's an idea Ernst Haeckel came up with. Haeckel was an influential biologist and a contemporary of Darwin. Although he was a big supporter of Darwin, he followed Lamarckism, and promoted social Darwinism. There is no Law of Biogenesis in biology, but creationist sites seem to have latched onto Ernst's old idea and proclaimed it to be hard science.
 
Do you have a source for this law, one that is scientific? Or is this law found only in young-earth creationist sources?

Apparently, it's an idea Ernst Haeckel came up with. Haeckel was an influential biologist and a contemporary of Darwin. Although he was a big supporter of Darwin, he followed Lamarckism, and promoted social Darwinism. There is no Law of Biogenesis in biology, but creationist sites seem to have latched onto Ernst's old idea and proclaimed it to be hard science.

You guys have to be kidding me. I was taught that in public high school along with the 1st & 2nd laws of Thermodynamics. No church nor Christian taught me that Law of Biogenesis. Real science taught me that.

Law of biogenesis

"(1) The principle stating that life arises from pre-existing life, not from nonliving material."

@CrowCross Can you believe this? Two sites list science laws and that law of science is not even listed any more. They also call it now Recapitulation Theory? Never heard that before,

175 Scientific Theory and Scientific Law in a List

Guess the New World Order "woke" people are hard at work denying God and any laws of science that proves otherwise.

Look at how they are promoting the theory of evolution now as if it is a law of science!

10 Scientific Laws and Theories You Really Should Know

Evil lying two face people that thinks God is not going to judge them for that.

Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

@DialecticSkeptic & @Yttrium & @Gus Bovona Seeing how bad the internet & science is now and .... it will be a miracle for you to see that false science; the evolution theory for what it is.

@CrowCross Time to pray for these guys.
 
Can you believe this? Two sites list science laws and that law of science is not even listed any more. They also call it now Recapitulation Theory? Never heard that before,
It kinda reminds me of the get your own dirt joke.
 
It kinda reminds me of the get your own dirt joke.
I am not familiar with that phrase but some short time ago, I recall sharing with an evolutionist or two that they were claiming that all the Law of Biogenesis says that life did not come from nothing and that was it and some links in the internet testified to that effect. I point out the obvious that it is misinformation because where did they get the notion to put biogenesis in the title of that law of science? A complete duh there.

Now they are messing with the law of biogenesis in another way.
 
I am not familiar with that phrase but some short time ago, I recall sharing with an evolutionist or two that they were claiming that all the Law of Biogenesis says that life did not come from nothing and that was it and some links in the internet testified to that effect. I point out the obvious that it is misinformation because where did they get the notion to put biogenesis in the title of that law of science? A complete duh there.

Now they are messing with the law of biogenesis in another way.
This is the joke...

God was once approached by a scientist who said, “Listen God, we’ve decided we don’t need you anymore. These days we can clone people, transplant organs and do all sorts of things that used to be considered miraculous.”

God replied, “Don’t need me huh? How about we put your theory to the test. Why don’t we have a competition to see who can make a human being, say, a male human being.”

The scientist agrees, so God declares they should do it like he did in the good old days when he created Adam.

“Fine” says the scientist as he bends down to scoop up a handful of dirt.”

“Whoa!” says God, shaking his head in disapproval. “Not so fast. You get your own dirt.”
 
Apparently, it's an idea Ernst Haeckel came up with. Haeckel was an influential biologist and a contemporary of Darwin. Although he was a big supporter of Darwin, he followed Lamarckism and promoted social Darwinism. There is no Law of Biogenesis in biology, but creationist sites seem to have latched onto Ernst's old idea and proclaimed it to be hard science.

I think those are two different things which are called by similar sounding terms. Haeckel's idea was a biogenetic law, his theory of recapitulation that was captured by the phrase "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" (which he coined). This idea suggests that the development of an individual organism (i.e., ontogeny) follows the same stages of the evolution of its species (i.e., phylogeny)—an idea that wasn't widely accepted then and nobody takes seriously now.

The so-called law of biogenesis was connected to French chemist Louis Pasteur, not Ernst Haeckel. But Pasteur did not call it a law. It was simply "biogenesis" and he intended it as the opposite of "spontaneous generation." The latter was regarded as a fact for over two thousand years and Pasteur was testing it. Does simple life arise spontaneously from non-living matter? Do fleas arise from dust, or maggots from dead flesh?

No, as it turns out. "La génération spontanée est une chimère," Pasteur said. ("Spontaneous generation is a dream.") Complex life does not arise spontaneously. Since the middle of the 19th century, spontaneous generation has been disproven. We know that fleas, maggots, bacteria, mice, etc., arise from natural generation (i.e., biogenesis).

It was English biologist Thomas Huxley who proposed the term abiogenesis for the origin of life, and adopted biogenesis as a term for the process by which life arises from existing life.

-- Attn: @ChristB4us

-----
Sources:

"Spontaneous Generation," Wikipedia, last modified July 11, 2023, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation.

"Biogenesis," Bionity.com, accessed July 12, 2023, https://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Biogenesis.html.
 
You guys have to be kidding me. I was taught that in public high school along with the 1st & 2nd laws of Thermodynamics. No church nor Christian taught me that Law of Biogenesis. Real science taught me that.

Law of biogenesis

"(1) The principle stating that life arises from pre-existing life, not from nonliving material."

That is referring to the discredited idea that things like fleas or maggots arise spontaneously from non-living matter, an archaic idea long-held that was eventually debunked over 150 years ago by Pasteur and others. It is not referring to the origin of life itself.

It is also not a scientific law; it is just "biogenesis," the observation that individual organisms arise by reproduction from other organisms. Thus, we learned that maggots are the offspring of flies, for example. In science, the terms law, theory, and hypothesis have fairly specific definitions. Biogenesis is not a scientific law because it doesn't describe a universal and mathematical relationship between variables (e.g., law of gravity, Stokes's law, conservation of energy, and so on). More importantly, all experimental tests of biogenesis dealt with complex life under current circumstances and environments. Simple life arising from non-living matter under circumstances and environments very different from what we observe today (e.g., four billion years ago) was never tested. That's the biggest reason why it isn't a scientific law (and can't be). It could become a law if efforts were made to test its universality—perhaps by creationist organizations?

It is only creationist sources that refer to it as a law. I wrote a Reddit post about it two years ago (2021).

-----

Sources:

DialecticSkeptic, "'The law of biogenesis' is not a thing," Reddit, July 4, 2021.
 
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I think those are two different things which are called by similar sounding terms. Haeckel's idea was a biogenetic law, his theory of recapitulation that was captured by the phrase "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" (which he coined). This idea suggests that the development of an individual organism (i.e., ontogeny) follows the same stages of the evolution of its species (i.e., phylogeny)—an idea that wasn't widely accepted then and nobody takes seriously now.

The so-called law of biogenesis was connected to French chemist Louis Pasteur, not Ernst Haeckel. But Pasteur did not call it a law. It was simply "biogenesis" and he intended it as the opposite of "spontaneous generation." The latter was regarded as a fact for over two thousand years and Pasteur was testing it. Does simple life arise spontaneously from non-living matter? Do fleas arise from dust, or maggots from dead flesh?

No, as it turns out. "La génération spontanée est une chimère," Pasteur said. ("Spontaneous generation is a dream.") Complex life does not arise spontaneously. Since the middle of the 19th century, spontaneous generation has been disproven. We know that fleas, maggots, bacteria, mice, etc., arise from natural generation (i.e., biogenesis).

It was English biologist Thomas Huxley who proposed the term abiogenesis for the origin of life, and adopted biogenesis as a term for the process by which life arises from existing life.

-- Attn: @ChristB4us

-----
Sources:

"Spontaneous Generation," Wikipedia, last modified July 11, 2023, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation.

"Biogenesis," Bionity.com, accessed July 12, 2023, https://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Biogenesis.html.
I remember my high school teaching CLEARLY and what was written in the science books as the Law of Biogenesis.

Since woke has been noticed to try to rewrite history, I can see what is going on in science even if you can't.

Maybe some day the Lord will remind you of what you had read in those science books back then to see the misinformation going on today.

Course, this false science already has an excuse by saying "that is what science does; new data comes in changing the "facts".

You either believe Jesus's words in Luke 17:26-37 & Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-15 about the global flood in warning believers to be ready & to endure to the end by His grace & by His help or else face God's fiery judgment on the earth after the pre great tribulation rapture event, or you don't believe His words nor Peter's words at all..

Luke 17:26-37 KJV

2 Peter 3:3-15 KJV
 
That is referring to the discredited idea that things like fleas or maggots arise spontaneously from non-living matter, an archaic idea long-held that was eventually debunked over 150 years ago by Pasteur and others. It is not referring to the origin of life itself.

It is also not a scientific law; it is just "biogenesis," the observation that individual organisms arise by reproduction from other organisms. Thus, we learned that maggots are the offspring of flies, for example. In science, the terms law, theory, and hypothesis have fairly specific definitions. Biogenesis is not a scientific law because it doesn't describe a universal and mathematical relationship between variables (e.g., law of gravity, Stokes's law, conservation of energy, and so on). More importantly, all experimental tests of biogenesis dealt with complex life under current circumstances and environments. Simple life arising from non-living matter under circumstances and environments very different from what we observe today (e.g., four billion years ago) was never tested. That's the biggest reason why it isn't a scientific law (and can't be). It could become a law if efforts were made to test its universality—perhaps by creationist organizations?

It is only creationist sources that refer to it as a law. I wrote a Reddit post about it two years ago (2021).

-----

Sources:

DialecticSkeptic, "'The law of biogenesis' is not a thing," Reddit, July 4, 2021.
Who ever taught you that is a liar.
 
I remember my high school teaching CLEARLY and what was written in the science books as the Law of Biogenesis.

Since woke has been noticed to try to rewrite history, I can see what is going on in science even if you can't.

Maybe some day the Lord will remind you of what you had read in those science books back then to see the misinformation going on today.

Course, this false science already has an excuse by saying "that is what science does; new data comes in changing the "facts".

You either believe Jesus's words in Luke 17:26-37 & Peter's words in 2 Peter 3:3-15 about the global flood in warning believers to be ready & to endure to the end by His grace & by His help or else face God's fiery judgment on the earth after the pre great tribulation rapture event, or you don't believe His words nor Peter's words at all..

Luke 17:26-37 KJV

2 Peter 3:3-15 KJV
In a recent article I learned they found a giant Axe.... Was the option that it was used by giants (nephelim) ever considered?
The article goes on to say..."These handaxes are so big it's difficult to imagine how they could have been easily held and used," It goes on to come up with a reason for the large axes... "Perhaps they fulfilled a less practical or more symbolic function than other tools, a clear demonstration of strength and skill."
The article later on adds... "Perhaps they fulfilled a less practical or more symbolic function than other tools, a clear demonstration of strength and skill."

The bible provides a lot of answers...and many simply disregard it.
 
In a recent article I learned they found a giant Axe.... Was the option that it was used by giants (nephelim) ever considered?
The article goes on to say..."These handaxes are so big it's difficult to imagine how they could have been easily held and used," It goes on to come up with a reason for the large axes... "Perhaps they fulfilled a less practical or more symbolic function than other tools, a clear demonstration of strength and skill."
The article later on adds... "Perhaps they fulfilled a less practical or more symbolic function than other tools, a clear demonstration of strength and skill."

The bible provides a lot of answers...and many simply disregard it.
That is what happens when saved believers take the word of science over God's words only because they are not rooted in His words to see the truth in what is false science from real science from the Word of God that is true.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Adam's sin was not believing God's words by hearkening unto the woman's word.

Salvation is by believing God's words that by believing in Him is how we are saved.

Discipleship by believing Him & His words to be our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to understand and abide in His words & trust Him to enable us to follow Him thus Jesus Christ is the only hope saved believers has for not being led astray by any lies in Christianity or in the world.
 
Who ever taught you that is a liar.

On the one hand, we have my statements supported with researched analysis and verifiable evidence, which I make sure to cite. On the other hand, we have your statements supported with ... well, some unverifiable memory of something long ago.

I'm happy to let the brethren draw their own conclusions from this.
 
On the one hand, we have my statements supported with researched analysis and verifiable evidence, which I make sure to cite.
Research done in ignorance because it assumes there was no Biblical global flood to mess with radiometric dating.
On the other hand, we have your statements supported with ... well, some unverifiable memory of something long ago.
If you are talking about the Law of Biogenesis, too bad you do not remember it when you were taught that in science in high school. It was in all the science books. It is your memory that I call into question. You just doubt mine because I cannot go online, compromised by woke liars, where most search results are changing the status of that Law of Biogenesis to being a Biogenesis Theory.

Spontaneous Generation vs. Biogenesis Theory
I'm happy to let the brethren draw their own conclusions from this.
Like to see you try and help a believer from not believing in Jesus Christ any more because of the evolution theory.

Go one step further and try & convince @Gus Bovona to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation. Ask him what stopping him from believing in Him.
 
Research done in ignorance because it assumes there was no Biblical global flood to mess with radiometric dating.

I suppose your assumption is that the biblical flood did mess with radiometric dating. Would you explain how?


If you are talking about the Law of Biogenesis, too bad you do not remember it when you were taught that in science in high school.

I was taught about spontaneous generation versus biogenesis, and Aristotle versus Pasteur, and so on. I don't think I ever heard it being called a scientific law until, as a new Christian, I saw it being described that way in young-earth creationist material (e.g., Henry Morris). I have a lot of books in my personal library, including textbooks, many of which were published 25 years ago or more. I can take photographs of the pages on which spontaneous generation was discussed and show you that biogenesis is not called a law. I even have some encyclopedias dating from the mid-1990s which I could check. These are all before the woke era, which began around 2015. Also, I can include photographs from my young-earth creationist literature where it is frequently called a law (as well as webpage links from more contemporary young-earth creationist sources still calling it a law).

Alternatively, to support your claim that it was called a law back in high school science class, we have only your memory—which you clearly trust. (Personally, I am a lot more skeptical about human memory, as a result of scientific evidence which demonstrates that it's not a faithful record of our past but instead fallible and often unreliable. There have been countless experiments all producing similar results. I highly recommend the documentary series The Brain, hosted by David Eagleman; see especially episode 2, "What Makes Me?" [one-hour Facebook video], which deals with memory.)

Evidence versus anecdote, mate. We all get to decide which is more credible.


You just doubt [my memory] because I cannot go online, compromised by woke liars, where most search results are changing the status of that Law of Biogenesis to being a Biogenesis Theory.

No, I doubt your memory because (a) you are human and (b) human memory is fallible and unreliable. Which part would you dispute?


Like to see you try and help a believer from not believing in Jesus Christ any more because of the evolution theory.

I do that quite often. I have a deep passion for helping fellow believers whose faith wavers under the pressures of higher education, particularly evolutionary biology. It fills me with joy when I'm able to show them that a conservative, evangelical, Bible-believing faith is under no threat from these things (i.e., both are true, so there is no contradiction). I went through an intense period of deconstruction without losing such a faith—my biblical world-view is practically fundamentalist—and I love showing them how.


Go one step further and try and convince @Gus Bovona to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

I am called to share the gospel and to disciple people. I am not called to convince anyone. That's the Holy Spirit's job. He does his, I do mine.


Ask @Gus Bovona what stopping him from believing in [Jesus Christ].

I don't need to ask him. I am already told in Scripture why people don't believe.
 
I suppose your assumption is that the biblical flood did mess with radiometric dating. Would you explain how?
EDIT BY MOD - unsafe link.

"Radiocarbon records are critical to understanding the history of Earth's climate, magnetic field, and the sun's activity, say researchers.

In an article published today in the journal Science, scientists have highlighted how recent advances in our knowledge of past radiocarbon levels are improving our understanding of EDIT processes, solar activity, geophysics and the carbon cycle."

"Radiocarbon also tells us about the possibility of past extreme solar storms, orders of magnitude greater than any instrumentally observed. Similar storms today would have the potential to catastrophically damage our communications networks and electricity grids."

"However, past levels of radiocarbon are also critical to understand the sun, the geodynamo, past climate, and changes in the carbon cycle. " ~~~end of quotes

They are assuming the rate of decay in radiometric dating is constant while ignoring the obvious factors that it can't be in light of the Biblical global flood which they ignore.

Plus they ignore asteroid impacts as a factor that can altar the rate of decay in radiometric dating.
was taught about spontaneous generation versus biogenesis, and Aristotle versus Pasteur, and so on. I don't think I ever heard it being called a scientific law until, as a new Christian, I saw it being described that way in young-earth creationist material (e.g., Henry Morris). I have a lot of books in my personal library, including textbooks, many of which were published 25 years ago or more. I can take photographs of the pages on which spontaneous generation was discussed and show you that biogenesis is not called a law. I even have some encyclopedias dating from the mid-1990s which I could check. These are all before the woke era, which began around 2015. Also, I can include photographs from my young-earth creationist literature where it is frequently called a law (as well as webpage links from more contemporary young-earth creationist sources still calling it a law).
I remember it as from the science books.
Alternatively, to support your claim that it was called a law back in high school science class, we have only your memory—which you clearly trust. (Personally, I am a lot more skeptical about human memory, as a result of scientific evidence which demonstrates that it's not a faithful record of our past but instead fallible and often unreliable. There have been countless experiments all producing similar results. I highly recommend the documentary series The Brain, hosted by David Eagleman; see especially episode 2, [one-hour Facebook video], which deals with memory.)
I am calling the present day modern science deceived or outright liars. God knows which ones they are. That is how sure I am in that memory.

It was the Psychiatric Association of the Southwest that announced on National News that homosexuality was a mental illness. Then they got threatening phone calls at the work place. They found out where they lived because they threatened them with phone calls at their homes. Even one had a brick thrown through their window and then the very next day in National news, they recanted. This was in the early 1980's.

Remember that? Try finding that on the internet now.

Only a couple years ago they were not even denying the Law of Biogenesis in being a law of science, but they were changing the definition even then by saying it is just about how life did not come from nothing and I had to contend with the evolutionist then that what was the point of having biogensis in its title, because that was not the original definition? Sure enough, I went on the internet and saw a few links testifying to hat evolutionist's point of view but I still found dictionaries that maintained that full definition.

Now they are gradually changing the law of biogenesis to biogenesis theory. See it being done here.

EDIT

Now search results do not even cite it as a law of science but just a theory. See that bait and switch now?
 
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"Radiocarbon is key to understanding Earth's past" [title of linked article].

My challenge to you was: Please explain how a catastrophic global flood over 4,000 years ago could have messed with our efforts at radiometric dating today. Quoting from an article about the value of prehistoric radiocarbon levels does not provide that explanation, at least not obviously. I can't engage your argument if I can't find one being made.


I remember it as from the science books.

Is your memory infallible? Of course not. Are you familiar with false memory? What about the social contagion of memory? For all I know, you could be one of those individuals with highly superior autobiographical memory, but evidence proves that even they are not immune to false memories and in remarkably similar numbers (Patihis et al. 2013).

Given the extensive evidence on human memory being malleable, prone to error, and often unreliable, your anecdotal claim of a clear memory is not sufficient in itself. I am willing to believe that science textbooks in the 1980s or 1990s called biogenesis a scientific law, but that will take at least a modicum of evidence.


I am calling present day science deceived, or outright lies—God knows which one. That is how sure I am in that memory.

Your confidence was not in question, but rather your memory. Uniquely relevant to your claim, some people were absolutely certain that the books used to be called The Berenstein Bears. Notwithstanding their confident memory, the books never were called that. It was a false memory, one commonly called the Mandela Effect.

That being said, science is self-correcting. When something in science is deceived or a lie, it gets found out by the ongoing, rigorous application of scientific principles. There is almost no end to the examples of this happening. If you believe that a specific scientific claim is deceived or a lie, can you point to the science that exposes it as such?


It was the Psychiatric Association of the Southwest that announced on National News that homosexuality was a mental illness. Then they got threatening phone calls at the work place. They found out where they lived because they threatened them with phone calls at their homes. [Someone even] had a brick thrown through their window. And then the very next day, in National News, they recanted. This was in the early 1980s. Remember that? Try finding that on the internet now.

I am not aware of the Psychiatric Association of the Southwest, nor can I find any historical reference to such an organization. However, I do recall homosexuality being listed as a mental disorder in 1968 by the American Psychiatric Association (APA) in the second edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-II). I also remember that the APA voted five years later to remove homosexuality from the list of mental disorders under considerable pressure by certain progressive psychiatrists and gay and lesbian activists who disrupted its proceedings and gave speeches; many elected officials were also pressured by campaigns across the nation.

Did some of these activists engage in threatening behavior and violence? It wouldn't surprise me. But help me understand what any of this has to do with science generally, or radiometric dating or biogenesis specifically?


Only a couple years ago they were not even denying the law of biogenesis being a law of science, but they were changing the definition even then by saying it is just about how life did not come from nothing.

Two things.

First, who are "they"?

Second, biogenesis was leveled in response to the archaic idea of spontaneous generation. In case you are missing the point, that means it was referring to complex life in modern circumstances, like maggots and fleas, not the origin of life four billion years ago.


Now they are gradually changing the law of biogenesis to biogenesis theory. See it being done here. ... Now search results do not even cite it as a law of science but just a theory. See that bait and switch now?

A law describes or predicts, and a theory explains. As descriptions don't turn into explanations, so laws of science don't turn into theories of science.


"What is the law of biogenesis?" [linked article].

Why did you link me to a disorganized Wordpress blog called Law Info which tries to infect visiting computers with malware?

(If you didn't know it was doing that, then it probably infected your computer without your knowledge.)

-----
Sources:

Lawrence Patihis et al., "False Memories in Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory Individuals," Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America 110, no. 52 (2013): 20947–20952, https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1314373110.
 
My challenge to you was: Please explain how a catastrophic global flood over 4,000 years ago could have messed with our efforts at radiometric dating today. Quoting from an article about the value of prehistoric radiocarbon levels does not provide that explanation, at least not obviously. I can't engage your argument if I can't find one being made.
Oh no. Not this again. @DialecticSkeptic is correct. @ChristB4us we've talked about this on other threads. There is no evidence that heat, pressure, floods have any affect on decay rates. But for sake of argument let's say that all the decay rates accelerated during a one year global flood as YECs claim in the ICR RATE Project. Even YECs admit that this amount of accelerated decay during a single year would generate enough heat to boil away the entire ocean and partially melt the Earth's crust.
 
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