Was Jesus firstborn as in first created person?
Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)
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Josheb
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That's part of the problem whenever the Trinity is discussed: same terms are used with disparate meaning. The words "God," Christ," and "divinity" hold different meaning to the orthodox Christian, the JW, the LDS, and any other unorthodox pov.
First everything, that is all creation. -His spirit-Yes, He is a person
He has the preeminence in all things,
Begotten of the Father alone before all ages -His spirit - A Son
Your free to believe the Spirit of God is a person other than the Father. The person of the Father.
But I disagree.
You have that stated here.
Matt 10:20
or it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
There would need to be a 3rd distinct mind apart from the Father and Christ Jesus to establish a 3rd person. The Spirit acts and conveys according to the will of the mind of the Spirit not on His own. Just as your spirit and your mind are you.
The Spirit is the Father as its His Spirit. The Spirit of God. But the Spirits acts according to the will of the mind of the Spirit. The Fathers Spirit is Deity and there is only one.
The Spirit/Deity of the Father without limit dwells/lives in His Son and they are one. How could Jesus be one with the Father and NOT be all that the Father is?
Again Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,
A Son who is before all things and in the form of God.
You will note Jesus never prayed to nor called the Spirit His God or Father. This should state to you Mary conceived by the Spirit of the Father who is the true God.
Don't they believe Jesus is the arch angel Micheal?
No
God's firstborn is a being, and such a being would make such a statement. "Before Abraham was born I am"
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What do you mean by "is a being". Is Jesus created? Or is he and was he always the eternal Son a person of the Godhead?
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Do you agree with this statement?
From the WCF
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
Who made that rule?
You think all three are not acting according to the same mind, that they can be in disagreement?
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When you use the word "begotten" (monogenes) which definition are you applying to Jesus?
- A being created by God
- The only one of its class, unique in kind--sharing the same divine nature (essence) as God
Born from the Father alone before all ages. His spirit was formed as the first of Gods works, the beginning of the creation of God. A beginning at some point in history before the world began. A Son. God oldest child. God's firstborn.
A think a person has a mind and is not just spirit.
A person's own spirit acts according to the will of the mind of that person.
Certainly, Jesus abides in the framework of His Fathers will but He has His own mind.
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So, a created being and not the eternal second person of the Trinity. Thanks for clarifying your denial of his eternal existence and as God of very God. That Jesus is fully human and also fully the very essence of God.
Now, if you still insist that your view given above is claiming Christ's divinity, then you are saying that God created another God. Which of course, is impossible.
Could you please do me the courtesy of answering my questions in #110 and 112?
Which applies to the Trinity.
A person's own spirit acts according to the will of the mind of that person.
Certainly, Jesus abides in the framework of His Fathers will but He has His own mind.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus has a human mind, will and emotions.
Josheb
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Hmmm....
When were his mind and will formed?
When you say he was "born before the ages" and his spirit formed [at] "the beginning of creation" do you realize you are contradicting yourself? Do you understand the contradiction of a beginning that occurs before the beginning ("before the world began")?
Do you understand the language of "Father" and "Son" is soteriological? Do you realize it's not the whole ontology of the Godhead?
God formed Jesus's spirit; God was pleased to have the fullness of His Deity dwell in His Firstborn. So it that union the Son is the imprint of the Fathers very being and He and the Father are one. In that context He is God. That's not another formed Deity and it did take place. Jesus's spirit is not deity. The Son who was, His spirit, descended into the body that was prepared for Him. He did not have the spirit of a man. The Father, who is Deity, was living in Him as we read. The Fathers works He performed testify to that oneness. The eternal life found in Christ is the Father.
Jesus has a human mind, will and emotions.
[/QUOTE]
The Son has his own mind. Yesterday, today and forever. Just as does the Father. The mind of the Spirit is the Fathers mind.
Josheb
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Scripture does at least two things that attribute deity to Jesus. The first is it explicitly states Jesus is God (or the logos of God that is God) and it repeatedly assigns to Jesus attributes that are solely and uniquely deific (and it does so in a manner that would otherwise be deemed apostate, heretical, and would disqualify him as anyone savior. How do you reconcile this.
Also, how do you explain all the inherently relational attributes of God (such as His ontological existence as love) without the existence of others?
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