Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[JesusFan]

He has always been the Son. God's firstborn.

Begotten, (His spirit) before all ages by the Father alone. The Deity without limit, (fullness), that was pleased to live in Him was gifted not begotten.

The Son who was, His spirit, descended into the body that was prepared for Him. As we read the Father is living in Him. They are one.

He ascended to where He was BEFORE.

"Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"

So its yes and No.
Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
He lives by the Father in Him and never dies.

The throne of God and the lamb forever and forever.

Was Jesus firstborn as in first created person?

 

[Josheb]

JW also use same terminology as Jesus to them is a god, and Holy Spirit is power of God

That's part of the problem whenever the Trinity is discussed: same terms are used with disparate meaning. The words "God," Christ," and "divinity" hold different meaning to the orthodox Christian, the JW, the LDS, and any other unorthodox pov.

 

[Paul]

Was Jesus firstborn as in first created person?

First everything, that is all creation. -His spirit-Yes, He is a person
He has the preeminence in all things,

Begotten of the Father alone before all ages -His spirit - A Son

 

[Paul]

Both proceed forth from within God the Father (post #90).

Which makes three distinct divine persons (deity), Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Your free to believe the Spirit of God is a person other than the Father. The person of the Father.
But I disagree.

You have that stated here.
Matt 10:20
or it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

There would need to be a 3rd distinct mind apart from the Father and Christ Jesus to establish a 3rd person. The Spirit acts and conveys according to the will of the mind of the Spirit not on His own. Just as your spirit and your mind are you.

 

[Paul]

Are each of them as much God as the Father is?

The Spirit is the Father as its His Spirit. The Spirit of God. But the Spirits acts according to the will of the mind of the Spirit. The Fathers Spirit is Deity and there is only one.
The Spirit/Deity of the Father without limit dwells/lives in His Son and they are one. How could Jesus be one with the Father and NOT be all that the Father is?
Again Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being,

A Son who is before all things and in the form of God.

You will note Jesus never prayed to nor called the Spirit His God or Father. This should state to you Mary conceived by the Spirit of the Father who is the true God.

 

[Paul]

JW also use same terminology as Jesus to them is a god, and Holy Spirit is power of God

Don't they believe Jesus is the arch angel Micheal?

 

[Arial]

@Paul

Is Jesus a created human. Please answer Yes or No.

 

[Paul]

Was Jesus firstborn as in first created person?

No
God's firstborn is a being, and such a being would make such a statement. "Before Abraham was born I am"

 

[Arial]

No
God's firstborn is a being, and such a being would make such a statement. "Before Abraham was born I am"

What do you mean by "is a being". Is Jesus created? Or is he and was he always the eternal Son a person of the Godhead?

 

[Arial]

No
God's firstborn is a being, and such a being would make such a statement. "Before Abraham was born I am"

Do you agree with this statement?




From the WCF

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

 

[Eleanor]

Your free to believe the Spirit of God is a person other than the Father. The person of the Father.
But I disagree.

You have that stated here.
Matt 10:20
or it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

There would need to be a 3rd distinct mind apart from the Father and Christ Jesus to establish a 3rd person.

Who made that rule?

The Spirit acts and conveys according to the will of the mind of the Spirit not on His own. Just as your spirit and your mind are you.

You think all three are not acting according to the same mind, that they can be in disagreement?

 

[Arial]

Begotten of the Father alone before all ages -His spirit - A Son

When you use the word "begotten" (monogenes) which definition are you applying to Jesus?

1. A being created by God
2. The only one of its class, unique in kind--sharing the same divine nature (essence) as God