Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[JesusFan]

Where did you see me call myself a Christian? I have said that I don't call myself a Christian either here or to my family and friends. I call myself a believer in Jesus Christ.

I'm here because I believe most doctrines are bogus. Esp. Trinity, literal 6-day creationism, pre-trib/Dispensationalism, and Preterism, and nearly all mainstream eschatological beliefs.

Is Jesus God to you?

 

[Eleanor]

I've answered this type of question before.
I believe in Jesus' virgin birth, his life and miracles, his trials, persecutions and crucifixion, his burial and resurrection, and his ascension to the Father. I don't have to believe in a man made Trinity that took about 250 years to develop.
The history of the doctrine is clear.

Does anything "proceed out from within" (ekporeuetai), Jn 15:26) God that is not God?

Jesus came forth out of God (Jn 8:2, 16:27, 28, 17:8), as did the Holy Spirit (Jn 15:26).

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Father are God, we call that the divine Trinity.

 

[fastfredy0]

Seems to me that the idea of a trinity developed over time which is to say that 1000s of years ago that knowledge had not been conveyed to men. I believe in the Trinity, but I don't understand it completely and the readings I've done indicate that it's a mystery to some degree .... anyways, to my novel thought ... is it possible that there's a fourth member that we are not aware of? (Aside: this is not to imply that I have any evidence)

 

[JesusFan]

Seems to me that the idea of a trinity developed over time which is to say that 1000s of years ago that knowledge had not been conveyed to men. I believe in the Trinity, but I don't understand it completely and the readings I've done indicate that it's a mystery to some degree .... anyways, to my novel thought ... is it possible that there's a fourth member that we are not aware of? (Aside: this is not to imply that I have any evidence)

No, despite some trying to get Mary to be seen as being such , as in co redemptrix co matrix, incessor Mother of God etc

 

[JesusFan]

Does anything "proceed out from within" (ekporeuetai), Jn 15:26) God that is not God?

Jesus came forth out of God (Jn 8:2, 16:27, 28, 17:8), as did the Holy Spirit (Jn 15:26).

based uypon that answer the poster would hold to unuitarianism or arianism theology

 

[Eleanor]

based uypon that answer the poster would hold to unuitarianism or arianism theology

Except that Scripture presents three distinct relationships:

1) the Son is subject to the Father, for the Son is sent by the Father in the Father's name (Jn 5:23, 36, 43);
2) the Spirit is subject to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (Jn 14:26);
3) the Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26, Ac 2:33).

 

[Eleanor]

Seems to me that the idea of a trinity developed over time which is to say that 1000s of years ago that knowledge had not been conveyed to men. I believe in the Trinity, but I don't understand it completely and the readings I've done indicate that it's a mystery to some degree .... anyways, to my novel thought ... is it possible that there's a fourth member that we are not aware of? (Aside: this is not to imply that I have any evidence)

I'm thinking it's pretty complete with three:
1) the Father ordained the plan,
2) the Son accomplished the plan,
3) the Holy Spirit applies the plan.

 

[JesusFan]

Except that Scripture presents three distinct relationships:

1) the Son is subject to the Father, for the Son is sent by the Father in the Father's name (Jn 5:23, 36, 43);
2) the Spirit is subject to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (Jn 14:26);
3) the Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26, Ac 2:33).

Yes, bible presents to us One God, One Being, who within Himself eternally exists in 3 Persons, blessed trinity

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, bible presents to us One God, One Being, who within Himself eternally exists in 3 Persons, blessed trinity

Three distinct persons. . .
The Father sending the distinct Son and the distinct Holy Spirit,
The Son sending the distinct Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit,
and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[atpollard]

There are lots of things that are semantically paradoxical.

Just to move outside of “God” and the “Trinity” for a moment, let us consider conjoined twins. Our hypothetical twins have two heads and four arms, two hearts and two lungs, one stomach and intestine with a single hip supporting two legs.

• Are they two minds and individuals?
• Are they really two completely separate beings?

Clearly, the common terms and the typical human image of “self” and “person” does not perfectly apply in this unusual case. This is not to say that the “Trinity” is like conjoined twins (it is not). My only point is that the idea that PERSON A (the Father) is not PERSON B (the Son) while PERSON A and PERSON B are both the same BEING (God), is not nonsensical … it is true of the conjoined twins without being nonsense.

 

[JesusFan]

Three distinct persons. . .
The Father sending the distinct Son and the distinct Holy Spirit,
The Son sending the distinct Holy Spirit.

The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit,
and the Son is not the Holy Spirit.

indeed, as if the Father was the Son was the Spirit would be either heresy of modalism or Oneness

 

[Paul]

Except that Scripture presents three distinct relationships:

1) the Son is subject to the Father, for the Son is sent by the Father in the Father's name (Jn 5:23, 36, 43);
2) the Spirit is subject to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (Jn 14:26);
3) the Spirit is subject to the Son as well as the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (Jn 15:26, 16:7, 14:26, Ac 2:33).

Not always.
Fathers promise in the last days I will pour out "MY" Spirit.... And we read in Acts 2 the Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father.

My spirit is not subject to me as it is me. Likewise, Those who listen and learn from the "Father" go to the Son ...Clearly His Spirit testifies to the truth as its stated, "They shall all be taught by God"
And Matt 10:20 - ,for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
And Jesus -It is the Father living in me doing His work. Clearly the Spirit of the Father who is Deity and speaking to us in these last days by His Son. He created by His Son as well.

The Father sent Jesus as Jesus stated.
Jesus reads from the scroll, "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted....

I would think the Son is subject to His God and Father.

About the Son
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

About God
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”
Is it His alone to give?
Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9You will break them with a rod of iron
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Daniel 7 - The Son of Man coming on the clouds of Heaven just as Jesus stated at His trial. (2nd coming)

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

We can read about the one giving and the one receiving.

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

 

[Eleanor]

Not always.

Irrelevant. . .

 

[JesusFan]

Are you

Not always.
Fathers promise in the last days I will pour out "MY" Spirit.... And we read in Acts 2 the Spirit Jesus sent He received from the Father.

My spirit is not subject to me as it is me. Likewise, Those who listen and learn from the "Father" go to the Son ...Clearly His Spirit testifies to the truth as its stated, "They shall all be taught by God"
And Matt 10:20 - ,for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
And Jesus -It is the Father living in me doing His work. Clearly the Spirit of the Father who is Deity and speaking to us in these last days by His Son. He created by His Son as well.

The Father sent Jesus as Jesus stated.
Jesus reads from the scroll, "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted....

I would think the Son is subject to His God and Father.

About the Son
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

About God
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”
Is it His alone to give?
Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9You will break them with a rod of iron
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Daniel 7 - The Son of Man coming on the clouds of Heaven just as Jesus stated at His trial. (2nd coming)

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

We can read about the one giving and the one receiving.

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

saying here that Jesus is not God then?

 

[Paul]

Are you

saying here that Jesus is not God then?

Is that what you reasoned from the scripture I posted?

Its yes and no to me.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

I hold to this as stated:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I hold to this about the Son. The Majesty noted next to Him is my God and the only true Deity.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

And I only believe in only "one" true God who is as Jesus declared is the person of the Father.

And as Jesus also stated it's the Father living in Him and they are one,

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives... A Son who is in the form of God but it is Gods, the Fathers, Deity in Him.

Surely you read throughout scripture a Father giving and a Son receiving. A Father speaking to us in these last days by His Son and a Father who created by His Son. Hence His Deity living in the Son doing His work.

Now if you want to state the Spirit of the only true God is a 3rd person feel free to do so but I disagree. It's the Fathers Spirit always only when that one Spirit acts or conveys according to the will of the mind of Christ can it be seen as the Spirit of Christ for Christ has all the fullness living in Him and has been glorified by His God and Father with sovereign authority. The mind of the Father and the mind of Christ. There is no 3rd mind which a person would have. The Spirit does not speak or act on His own.

Just two.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb....

And this is written:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

 

[JesusFan]

Is that what you reasoned from the scripture I posted?

Its yes and no to me.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

I hold to this as stated:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I hold to this about the Son. The Majesty noted next to Him is my God and the only true Deity.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

And I only believe in only "one" true God who is as Jesus declared is the person of the Father.

And as Jesus also stated it's the Father living in Him and they are one,

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives... A Son who is in the form of God but it is Gods, the Fathers, Deity in Him.

Surely you read throughout scripture a Father giving and a Son receiving. A Father speaking to us in these last days by His Son and a Father who created by His Son. Hence His Deity living in the Son doing His work.

Now if you want to state the Spirit of the only true God is a 3rd person feel free to do so but I disagree. It's the Fathers Spirit always only when that one Spirit acts or conveys according to the will of the mind of Christ can it be seen as the Spirit of Christ for Christ has all the fullness living in Him and has been glorified by His God and Father with sovereign authority. The mind of the Father and the mind of Christ. There is no 3rd mind which a person would have. The Spirit does not speak or act on His own.

Just two.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb....

And this is written:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

You are not Oneness or Modualist are you?

 

[Josheb]

Irrelevant. . .

Incorrect. What @Paul posted is quite relevant.


Is the Holy Spirit created?

 

[JesusFan]

Incorrect. What @Paul posted is quite relevant.


Is the Holy Spirit created?

Holy Spirit is himself very God, but that other Poster seemed to deny Deity of Jesus though

 

[Paul]

Incorrect. What @Paul posted is quite relevant.


Is the Holy Spirit created?

No, The HS is the Fathers Spirit. Not a child or 3rd person. The Father is unbegotten. The Fathers Spirit would have the Fathers nature. Deity.