Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[makesends]

My beliefs have progressively changed over the years. I'm not a literal 6-day creationist, not a pre-tribber, not a Preterist, not a Trinitarian. Neither do I believe that Rome is the end time culprit. People are moving away from these in droves.

makesends said:
Thanks. Do you have a...description of the nature/being/function/etc of the Son of God and of the Spirit of God as not divinity, or do you just say that you don't know? Is it just that orthodoxy doesn't make sense on that?

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

This is my opinion...

The 'hypostatic union' destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says Jesus was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father - yet that Jesus is the same person and NOT God . So a trinity is a complicated, contradictory mess. That's the craziness of the trinity triangle

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

We are told to pray to the Father in Jesus' name.

There seem to me several errors here concerning what Trinitarians generally believe, but I will invite a few other members to comment—hopefully more kindly than how you have been shown so far. I'm short of time today. @Josheb , @John Bauer , @Eleanor , @Arial & @Fred

 

[miss managed]

makesends said:
Thanks. Do you have a...description of the nature/being/function/etc of the Son of God and of the Spirit of God as not divinity, or do you just say that you don't know? Is it just that orthodoxy doesn't make sense on that?


There seem to me several errors here concerning what Trinitarians generally believe, but I will invite a few other members to comment—hopefully more kindly than how you have been shown so far. I'm short of time today. @Josheb , @John Bauer , @Eleanor , @Arial & @Fred

I have been kind. It's when one of your illustrious posters crapped on me with a personal attack and accused me of being confused.

Did you reprimand him?

 

[Fred]

mm asserted:
"A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father..."


Your confusion about Trinitarianism is obvious, because Jesus is not "the same person as God the Father."

 

[Arial]

miss managed said:
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

This is my opinion...

The 'hypostatic union' destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says Jesus was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

 

[miss managed]

mm asserted:
"A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father..."


Your confusion about Trinitarianism is obvious, because Jesus is not "the same person as God the Father."

You obviously do NOT understand the Trinity doctrine. Here's a visual aid for you...

 

[Fred]

You obviously do NOT understand the Trinity doctrine. Here's a visual aid for you...

View attachment 1169

You're the one who... Mod edit: This is off topic. Please keep to the subject. Ignore personal attacks unless they are somehow on topic.

 

[Arial]

miss managed said:
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

This is my opinion...

The 'hypostatic union' destroys the atonement. If Jesus was God that makes him a fraud and the cross a hoax.

The bible says Jesus was tempted IN EVERY WAY AND THAT HE KNEW TEMPTATION. It also says that "God cannot be tempted and therefore cannot sin."

Heb 2:17 Trefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful High priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
The Trinity does not deny the humanity of Jesus. Three things are true. 1.Only God can forgive sin against himself.
2. Sin bears a penalty and God's justice must be satisfied in order to extend mercy. Since man cannot pay that penalty himself, another must pay it for him. Take the penalty in his place. Make propitiation.
3. The one who takes the penalty in their place, must be of the same kind as the one he substitutes for.

Therefore the hypostatic union does does not destroy the atonement. Denying his deity and his humanity does.


In the hypostatic union the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same essence---they are one----not distinct in person. Flesh was added to the Son for the purpose of redemption. But at no time did he lose the essence of deity. The two things (essense or nature), in one person, not mixed together.

Jesus was born of the Father, not Adam, so his nature was no more sinful than was Adam's at creation, before the fall. He lived in the same world we live in, surrounded by the same temptations we are, subject to the same physical stresses and strains that we are. Needing shelter and food and water, as we do. Just as Adam could have not sinned, Jesus as a man did not.
@miss managed said:


If Jesus was God that means he could not have sinned anyway. (Back to the only Trinitarian answer of TWO NATURES) That makes the Word of God totally contradictory - makes Jesus a fraud because he never would have to overcome sin since he also being God couldn't have been tempted to sin anyway - ultimately making him a fraud and the cross a complete hoax and the atonement for sin a complete hoax - think about it.

Arial said;
Even if he was not God he could not have sinned because God sent him to make atonement for the sins of his people. (Isa.55:11) Jesus overcame sin by NOT sinning---as a man, not as God.He fulfilled all righteousness.

 

[makesends]

View attachment 1168

I have been kind. It's when one of your illustrious posters crapped on me with a personal attack and accused me of being confused.

Did you reprimand him?

Yes, I did, and deleted his post.

 

[Arial]

miss managed said:
A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father - yet that Jesus is the same person and NOT God . So a trinity is a complicated, contradictory mess. That's the craziness of the trinity triangle

Arial says:
A trinitarian does not believe that Jesus is the same person as God the Father. One in essence, three in distinct persons. It is not a contradictory mess. It is a reality that exists in a being that is completely other than us, and with whom we have nothing to compare it to. We define things in our temporal and finite world by making comparisons between what we don't know to what we do know. "The road is winding like a river." "Rattlesnake tastes like chicken." "It's smooth like the shell of an egg." But we see clearly in the very self revealing word of God, three distinct persons who all do the same things that only God can do, and be, each playing a particular function with humanity in redemption. The Father sends the Son, the Son does the work necessary for redemption, the Holy Spirit applies that work to a person (John 3), seals them in Christ, and sanctifies them, by illuminating his word. It is called faith, but not a blind faith, a faith that kisses reason.

 

[makesends]

View attachment 1168

I have been kind. It's when one of your illustrious posters crapped on me with a personal attack and accused me of being confused.

Did you reprimand him?

Mod comment: I intended you no ill, no disrespect, and intended the reminder (to be kind) to all participants. But, please, try to keep to the subject of the OP. —If you wish to speak of these or other personal issues, you can DM any or all of the staff. Our purpose here is to keep threads civil and to-the-point.

 

[Josheb]

makesends said:
Thanks. Do you have a...description of the nature/being/function/etc of the Son of God and of the Spirit of God as not divinity, or do you just say that you don't know? Is it just that orthodoxy doesn't make sense on that?


There seem to me several errors here concerning what Trinitarians generally believe, but I will invite a few other members to comment—hopefully more kindly than how you have been shown so far. I'm short of time today. @Josheb , @John Bauer , @Eleanor , @Arial & @Fred

@miss managed is quoted saying, "A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father....." That is completely, egregiously, incorrect. So that might be where the disagreement lies. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there are three Persons of one essence or substance. Similarly, @miss managed says, "yet that Jesus is the same person and NOT God," but that, again, is completely incorrect. Jesus is God. He is God the son, but not God the Father. While on earth, Jesus laid aside all claim of equality with God, not his actual divinity.

For the record: I don't much participate in Trin threads because I find them disingenuous and usually more rancorous than those found in the soteriology board(s). Even if the doctrine of the Trinity is articulated correctly (avoiding strawmen), non-trins rarely have any genuine interest in examining the evidence with any real prospect for changing their mind, so the ops are polemics, not authentic discussions. If that's how this thread pans out, I won't post much here, either.
.

 

[miss managed]

@miss managed is quoted saying, "A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father....." That is completely, egregiously, incorrect. So that might be where the disagreement lies. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there are three Persons of one essence or substance. Similarly, @miss managed says, "yet that Jesus is the same person and NOT God," but that, again, is completely incorrect. Jesus is God. He is God the son, but not God the Father. While on earth, Jesus laid aside all claim of equality with God, not his actual divinity.

For the record: I don't much participate in Trin threads because I find them disingenuous and usually more rancorous than those found in the soteriology board(s). Even if the doctrine of the Trinity is articulated correctly (avoiding strawmen), non-trins rarely have any genuine interest in examining the evidence with any real prospect for changing their mind, so the ops are polemics, not authentic discussions. If that's how this thread pans out, I won't post much here, either.
.

Again, look at the Trinity triangle. One problem with this Trinity doctrine is that many believers go whatever way they want with it. The doctrine DOES TEACH that Jesus is God but that Jesus is NOT God.

In fact the big shots even admit the doctrine isn't explicit. WIKI has it right...bold is mine...

While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, it is implicit in John, a Trinity and the New Testament possesses a triadic understanding of God and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas. The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians (mid-2nd century and later) and fathers of the Church as they attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.

Here's a quote from your buddies at Desiring God...

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but he is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? How is it not a contradiction for God to be both three and one?

www.desiringgod.org

 

[miss managed]

{Mod Edit: You are allowed to debate points of the Trinity, but as a Christian site, we do not allow opinionated attacks on it, that have no valid support.}

The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have.

In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!
{ Edit}

The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) The Protestants, many of whom label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot and/or the beast, simply adopted it into their theology.

{Edit}

This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving millions OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity!

 

[miss managed]

New Barna Survey: Only 16% of Christians Believe In The Trinity?

(Protestia) In a new nationwide survey released by George Barna for the Arizona Christian University, only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians believe in the Trinity. While impossible to fully compre…

christianresearchnetwork.org

 

[Arial]

New Barna Survey: Only 16% of Christians Believe In The Trinity?

(Protestia) In a new nationwide survey released by George Barna for the Arizona Christian University, only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians believe in the Trinity. While impossible to fully compre…

christianresearchnetwork.org

Is that being used as support that the Trinity is a false doctrine?

Have you not read of the wide gate and the narrow gate.

Consider it could be a part of an apostacy that occurrs in this age (the cross to the second advent). Consider that it could be "those who went out from us because they were not part of us".

 

[Arial]

The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have.

Only the right answer is needed. That the hypostatic union is the only one is a meaningless statement.

In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!

Not one person has ever proved the existence of God either.

The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) The Protestants, many of whom label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot and/or the beast, simply adopted it into their theology.

Is that what the Reformers did? Simply adopt it into their theology? Or did their consistent theology, meant to correct all of the false, unbiblical teaching within the RCC, arrive at the same conclusion from Scripture evidence? They did not approach their duty with a throwing the baby out with the bathwater purpose.

This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving millions OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity!

1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

 

[miss managed]

Is that being used as support that the Trinity is a false doctrine?

Have you not read of the wide gate and the narrow gate.

Consider it could be a part of an apostacy that occurrs in this age (the cross to the second advent). Consider that it could be "those who went out from us because they were not part of us".

The wide gate has nothing to do with Trinity and apostasy has nothing to do with Christianity.

The Barna survey simply shows that many believers have done their OWN homework and threw Trinity right out the window.

 

[Arial]

The wide gate has nothing to do with Trinity and apostasy has nothing to do with Christianity.

The Barna survey simply shows that many believers have done their OWN homework and threw Trinity right out the window.

I was not using the wide gate illustration as having anything to do with the Trinity. I was using because you seem to think the more people who don't believe in the Trinity the more likely it is that the Trinity is false.

If a person doesn't believe in the Trinity then they are not a Christian. They may call themselves one, but the Trinity is a cardinal doctrine of one religion and one religion only---Christian.

Jesus shows himself to be God and man. The prophets testify to the Messiah being God and also testify of him being born of a virgin---human. So if a person used to believe in the Trinity, and now they don't, they never were of us or they would not have gone out from us.

 

[makesends]

New Barna Survey: Only 16% of Christians Believe In The Trinity?

(Protestia) In a new nationwide survey released by George Barna for the Arizona Christian University, only 16% of self-proclaimed Christians believe in the Trinity. While impossible to fully compre…

christianresearchnetwork.org

Not that Barna has any way to validate the notion, but if the OT Israel is any parallel indication, there is reason to think that only at best 10% of those who claim to be Christians are actually 'in Christ', regenerated, redeemed and saved, believers.

Who does and who does not believe in the Trinity is of no consequence as to its veracity.

 

[miss managed]

If a person doesn't believe in the Trinity then they are not a Christian. They may call themselves one, but the Trinity is a cardinal doctrine of one religion and one religion only---Christian.

And all along I was under the ASSUMPTION that believing in Jesus' virgin birth, his life and miracles, his trials, persecutions and crucifixion, his burial and resurrection, and his ascension to the Father was all I had to believe...

Now you're telling me that I have to believe in a{ Editl} doctrine {edit}that perverts the words of Jesus who said the Father is greater and that he can do nothing on his own.