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An open invitation to debate

Moden science does not have to deny a literal de novo creation of Adam by God. Both positions can be held as true without contradiction: (1) God directly created Adam de novo from the dust. (2) A few million other humans lived throughout the world (i.e., outside of Eden) at the time. This is a subject that I would be willing to engage in a formal debate.

As I have said, I have a hard time seeing how humanity was supposed to multiply (Heb: swarming with swarms) unless there was lots of unrecorded reproduction going on, which can explain other human activity we hear about. The same expression is used of the other animals.

I don’t know how 1-2 children per year is ‘swarming with swarms.’

But 2:4+ is the account of one such couple and their knowledge of a divine boundary. And failure, Affecting all others.

2nd, comparing Genesis with the Sequalish again (near Seattle), the Creator made everything by speaking. Applied to Genesis, this would apply to Adam from dirt and Eve from Adam.

The Sequalish then believed that the Creator let mankind use the power of ‘form-changing’ which had created things. But they harmed others with it, and mixed all forms of life. Let that sink in. So he removed the use of it and the forms were back to what we know today.

I don’t think I ever thought of Gen 1s ‘after their kind’ as a moral or ethical ordinance until hearing the Sequalish cosmology. But it must be compared to Gen 6s ‘experimentations.’

At a museum in El Paso there is an ancient line drawing of a dog-coyote with detail as to the womb. With so many similar drawings out there, you kind of wonder…why that detail? I don’t recall if another creature was being shown about to inseminate and am seeking the original illustration.
 
This is an error in my opinion. Modern science consists of a whole lot of speculation. If you read any scientific article you find the words "probable; most likely; suggests; should be inferred; etc."

Modern science does not support the ideas postulated by some, rather it is one big speculation based on assumption and bad premises.

Rather, science stand diametrically opposed to the supernatural, and therefore some will try and discredit scripture by trying to circumvent the supernatural and trying to justify their thoughts and incomplete evidence in the natural.

That which is flesh is flesh.
I think you misread my statement. Let me copy paste part of it again:

But that is the irony that people don't see. You criticize modern science, yet at the same time you value science (because our culture does) and so you believe that "true" science will agree with the Bible. Christians don't see the love-hate relationship we have with science. We criticize secular science, but then at the same time desperately want "true" science to agree with the Bible, because we value science in our culture.

Do you see the irony here? You're criticizing me for supposedly putting modern science over the Bible, when I'm telling you that Scripture needs to be interpreted independent of modern science. I'm the one saying we must ditch modern science altogether in order to properly understand what Scripture is teaching.
 
I just received this in a Discovery Institute email:

Eh, seems a misreading of history, but ultimately doesn't matter.

Today, natural selection is rigorously defined in population genetics. In fact, it is mathematically (quantitatively) defined as well as qualitatively.
 
Your position (that there were millions of people outside of Eden) is easily refutable. When a genealogy is traced back, the amount of people in that genealogy reduces, and does not increase to millions. If you follow any of the genealogies in scripture, you find a reduction of people, not and increase. A lot of children can be born in a span of a 900-year lifetime.

So, if I have understood you correctly, your argument is that a person's genealogy tracing back to a single couple is proof that other people didn't exist at the same time as that couple?
 
Christians don't see the love-hate relationship we have with science. We criticize secular science, but then at the same time desperately want "true" science to agree with the Bible, because we value science in our culture.
Define "true" science?
This was my point.

" I'm the one saying we must ditch modern science altogether in order to properly understand what Scripture is teaching."
Modern science, being a speculative science at best or "true" science?
 
So, if I have understood you correctly, your argument is that a person's genealogy tracing back to a single couple is proof that other people didn't exist at the same time as that couple?
I am saying that as a Christian, the Biblical narrative tells me that it traces back to a single couple. The Mother of all the living.

What evidence do you have that tracing back a population of say 50 married couples, that it would be completely diverse, leading to millions of people, and that they would not have an increasing number of relatives in common as it dates back.
 
I am saying that as a Christian, the Biblical narrative tells me that it traces back to a single couple. The Mother of all the living.

What evidence do you have that tracing back a population of say 50 married couples, that it would be completely diverse, leading to millions of people, and that they would not have an increasing number of relatives in common as it dates back.
Genesis 2-3 must be understood independently from science.

But in answer to your evidence question, see, "Evidence for Human-Chimp Ancestry"
 
Genesis 2-3 must be understood independently from science.
Hold on...

My claim is that when you trace the genealogy of population back, you will find more and more ancestors in common, thereby reducing the number of people.

The claim was that the earth was filled with millions of people at the time of the banishment from Eden.
 
Hold on...

My claim is that when you trace the genealogy of population back, you will find more and more ancestors in common, thereby reducing the number of people.

The claim was that the earth was filled with millions of people at the time of the banishment from Eden.
That second claim is an attempt to reconcile science and Scripture (that may or may not be true). An attempt that you don't seem to find satisfying. In favor, at least, of the idea that there were other humans at the time of Adam & Eve is the "where did Cain's wife come from?" point/argument (of course, some just say 'incest'/daughter of Adam & Eve explains that).

My point is science and Scripture must first both be understood on their own terms, independently from one another to avoid twisting Scripture to fit science and vice versa. Human-primate ancestry is supported beyond a reasonable doubt. How that fits with Scripture, is at worst a big "we don't know." But it doesn't seem to alter the message. Either way, the theology is effectively the same. Perhaps, we may need to rethink our views on no death (of any kind) before the Fall. The creation of Adam & Eve does seems more archetypal from an ANE viewpoint (more functional, ontological; than a statement of material scientific fact). That is, the emphasis in their creation seems more to be on their mortality than a statement of literal, material origins. From dust they came and to dust they will return. Only God's life-sustaining presence in the garden (which they forfeit) can keep them alive, Expulsion from God's presence means they are consigned to their mortality.

There are a lot of symbolic elements in the Adam & Eve account. Does this mean there was no actual, historical Fall? No. But it means these symbolic elements could represent real things, real people, real events.

I guess my bottom line point is, evolution or no evolution, it doesn't change the historical reality of the Fall. Somehow, some way, some where, at some time there was a fall. We may not be able to figure it all out, but no amount of evolution can change the facts as we experience them: it is self-evident that like Adam & Eve we all disobey, go against the divinely established order by trying to meet our own needs (in place of God) instead of humbly depending on our Creator for his life-sustaining power (Tree of Life) and divine wisdom (Tree of Wisdom/Knowledge).
 
So, if I have understood you correctly, your argument is that a person's genealogy tracing back to a single couple is proof that other people didn't exist at the same time as that couple?

My argument is that multiply in Hebrew is the expression ‘swarm with swarms’ and 1-2 children per year doesn’t sound like that. The group referred to is mankind in Gen 1, not one couple in ch 2.
 
I guess my bottom line point is, evolution or no evolution, it doesn't change the historical reality of the Fall. Somehow, some way, some where, at some time there was a fall. We may not be able to figure it all out, but no amount of evolution can change the facts as we experience them: it is self-evident that like Adam & Eve we all disobey, go against the divinely established order by trying to meet our own needs (in place of God) instead of humbly depending on our Creator for his life-sustaining power (Tree of Life) and divine wisdom (Tree of Wisdom/Knowledge).
Amen!
 
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What evidence do you have that tracing back a population of say 50 married couples, that it would be completely diverse, leading to millions of people, and that they would not have an increasing number of relatives in common as it dates back.

I'm sorry but I can't decipher what you are trying to ask here. I am also concerned about what it is you think I believe: That if we trace the genealogical history of 50 married couples, their ancestors would explode into untold millions of completely diverse people and few, if any, would be held in common? I mean, what? I can't think of anything that I've said in this discussion that would give you that idea. Or maybe I've badly misunderstood what you were saying here. Honestly, I couldn't make sense of it.

Having said that, I don't have any evidence for beliefs I don't hold.

Are you familiar with the "identical ancestor point" in genealogical ancestry? Mr. Smith has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on as you go back in time. The same goes for his wife, Mrs. Smith, and the same goes for Mr. and Mrs. Jones, and so on. As you keep going back through generations, the number of their direct ancestors doubles with each generation.

However, with each generation going back, you're dealing with an existing world population size—which was less than a billion only 200 years ago (i.e., roughly eight generations). In other words, the straight-forward math very quickly flies in the face of reality, for you end up reaching a point where the number of ancestors exceeds the number of people living at that time. This is the "identical ancestor point," where the family tree of everyone living today starts to overlap and some ancestors are shared by multiple individuals.


I am saying that, as a Christian, the biblical narrative tells me that it traces back to a single couple. [Eve was called] the mother of all the living.

There is no dispute between us on that point. Yes, the biblical narrative traces back to Adam and Eve—because the biblical narrative is about redemptive history, which God inaugurated roughly 6,000 years ago with them in the garden of Eden. There is also no dispute that Adam and Eve were the only humans there.

None of this pertains to outside of Eden. Again, Scripture is clear that Adam and Eve were the only humans in Eden, and science is clear that there were plenty of other humans elsewhere in the world. Also, Scripture is clear that Adam and Eve are the genealogical ancestors of everyone on Earth, and science is clear that they weren't the first humans on Earth.

When Cain was banished from Eden, he no longer enjoyed the protection of God's presence (Gen 4:16) and felt vulnerable. Who was Cain afraid of? And who was his wife? When he was banished, he left Eden and went to the land of Nod where he and his wife had a child. Remember, at this time Adam and Eve were childless. Abel was dead, Cain was banished, and they didn't have another child for over 100 years (Gen 5:3).

If there were humans outside of Eden, it all makes sense.
 
I'm sorry but I can't decipher what you are trying to ask here. I am also concerned about what it is you think I believe: That if we trace the genealogical history of 50 married couples, their ancestors would explode into untold millions of completely diverse people and few, if any, would be held in common? I mean, what? I can't think of anything that I've said in this discussion that would give you that idea. Or maybe I've badly misunderstood what you were saying here. Honestly, I couldn't make sense of it.

Having said that, I don't have any evidence for beliefs I don't hold.
DialecticSkeptic said:
Moden science does not have to deny a literal de novo creation of Adam by God. Both positions can be held as true without contradiction: (1) God directly created Adam de novo from the dust. (2) A few million other humans lived throughout the world (i.e., outside of Eden) at the time. This is a subject that I would be willing to engage in a formal debate.
 
@Manfred Now please correlate all that with the question you were asking me, preferably by rephrasing your question. Thank you.
 
There is no dispute between us on that point. Yes, the biblical narrative traces back to Adam and Eve—because the biblical narrative is about redemptive history, which God inaugurated roughly 6,000 years ago with them in the garden of Eden. There is also no dispute that Adam and Eve were the only humans there.

None of this pertains to outside of Eden. Again, Scripture is clear that Adam and Eve were the only humans in Eden, and science is clear that there were plenty of other humans elsewhere in the world. Also, Scripture is clear that Adam and Eve are the genealogical ancestors of everyone on Earth, and science is clear that they weren't the first humans on Earth.

When Cain was banished from Eden, he no longer enjoyed the protection of God's presence (Gen 4:16) and felt vulnerable. Who was Cain afraid of? And who was his wife? When he was banished, he left Eden and went to the land of Nod where he and his wife had a child. Remember, at this time Adam and Eve were childless. Abel was dead, Cain was banished, and they didn't have another child for over 100 years (Gen 5:3).

If there were humans outside of Eden, it all makes sense.
From Don Stuart, and I stand in agreement.

As far as the account of Cain's finding a wife when no other people were mentioned except Adam, Eve, and Abel, we can make the following observations:

1.The problem of the identity of Cain's wife cannot be solved by arguing for some race of Pre-Adamic humans. The Scripture is clear that Adam was the first man and that Eve was the mother of all the living.

2.Some believe that the answer to the population problem is to say that there were older brothers and sisters of Cain and Abel. There is no biblical support for this view but it cannot be totally ruled out.

3.We are not told the age of Cain and Abel when the murder occurred. They could have advanced to a considerable age before Cain killed Abel. The limit the Bible puts on the age of Cain and Abel is 130 years.

4.Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters. We are not told specifically how many, but we are told that Adam lived 930 years. This raises the possibility of dozens of children from that couple alone. There were possibly as many as 32,000 people living at the time Cain killed Abel.

5.Genesis 5 tells us that some of Adam's descendants also had long life spans. Likewise, the Bible says that they gave birth to many sons and daughters.

 
This is making me think of the error assymetry principle (a.k.a. Brandolini’s Law), where the amount of work involved in correcting error is an order of magnitude greater than that needed to produce it. (This is one reason why the Gish Gallop is so effective, because the amount of material it takes to correct errors and falsehoods just ends up losing the audience. Falsehoods win because they’re entertaining and simple. Truth loses because it’s TL;DR.)

Scripture describes Adam as the first man archetypally, not empirically. The sense in which Adam was the first man needs to correspond with the sense in which Christ was the second man. If Adam being the first man means that there were none previously, then Christ being the second man means there was no one between him and Adam—which is patently absurd, for countless people existed between the two. So, the ordinals first and second are not a reference to Adam and Christ as humans but as something else.

I would propose to you—and Don Stewart and the readers—a more credible and consistent interpretation, namely, that Paul is referring to them archetypally, as federal heads in covenant relation to God. In other words, Adam is the first man and Christ is the second man in an archetypal sense, not an empirical sense. Here we see how Paul perceives Christ in relation to Adam and vice-versa. In his teachings, those who are in Adam (by default) belong to the natural, earthly old humanity that experiences condemnation and death, while those in Christ (by grace) belong to the spiritual, heavenly new humanity that experiences salvation and life. These are forensic and existential realities of our covenant relationship with God, thus the matter is theology, not biology.

When Paul uses the terms “in Adam” or “in Christ”—for example, “just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive”—he is referring to covenant union and federal headship. Just as we know countless people existed between the first and second man, so countless people could exist before the first man, because Paul was speaking theologically of the archetypal significance of Adam and Christ using covenantal language.

So, the question of Cain’s wife actually can be solved by arguing for the existence of human populations outside of Eden—as I showed in my previous response.

Cain’s wife was unlikely one of his sisters. I had presented an argument from Scripture for why Cain's wife could not have been one of his sisters. Here, Stewart suggests an idea held by some (who?) which he thinks cannot be ruled out, that Adam and Eve had children prior to Cain, which Stewart called "older brothers and sisters of Cain." I think this actually is ruled out, given the facts of (a) the nature of Eve’s reaction to the birth of Cain and (b) the explicit statement that their other sons and daughters came after Seth.

Eve’s reaction to the birth of Cain suggests that she thought this was the fulfilment of God’s promise in the protoevangelium (3:15). Some scholars (e.g., David Guzik) understand the meaning of the name Cain as reflecting Eve's exclamation, “I’ve got the man with the Lord”—suggesting that Eve might have thought Cain was the promised seed, now fulfilled by God. And such a reaction makes sense with the first child, not the Nth child.

Much more importantly, however, is that it was after Cain murdered Abel and was banished by God from Eden that Adam and Eve had another son, named Seth (Gen 4:25). His name also formed a wordplay (paronomasia), highlighting that God gave him “in place of” Abel whom Cain had killed. And in Genesis 5:3 we are told that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. Not only that, but it was during the 800 years after Seth that Adam had other sons and daughters (v. 4).

All the indications point to (a) Cain and Abel being their first and second child, respectively, and that, (b) after Cain was banished for murdering Abel, the next child his parents had was Seth, (c) after whom they had other sons and daughters. In case the point isn’t clear, let me state it out loud: It was after Cain left for the land of Nod where he and his wife had a son that Adam and Eve had Seth and then other children.
 
This is making me think of the error assymetry principle (a.k.a. Brandolini’s Law), where the amount of work involved in correcting error is an order of magnitude greater than that needed to produce it. (This is one reason why the Gish Gallop is so effective, because the amount of material it takes to correct errors and falsehoods just ends up losing the audience. Falsehoods win because they’re entertaining and simple. Truth loses because it’s TL;DR.)
That would of course be your response.
If you look at what was presented, it does not violate the asymmetry principal. There is definitely NOT a large amount of material required to consider where a wife for Cane came from.

Making a blanket statement that there had to be millions of people on earth prior to Adam and Eve because Cain was afraid and he found a wife, while at the same time claiming the language of Genesis is poetic and not literal is a bit oxymoronic.
Scripture describes Adam as the first man archetypally, not empirically. The sense in which Adam was the first man needs to correspond with the sense in which Christ was the second man. If Adam being the first man means that there were none previously, then Christ being the second man means there was no one between him and Adam—which is patently absurd, for countless people existed between the two. So, the ordinals first and second are not a reference to Adam and Christ as humans but as something else.
Speculation at most.
Mar_10:6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’
Mat_19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,

Here the creator Himself confirms creation and not evolution. Unless you want to claim He was referencing millions of pre-adamic people!
I would propose to you—and Don Stewart and the readers—a more credible and consistent interpretation, namely, that Paul is referring to them archetypally, as federal heads in covenant relation to God. In other words, Adam is the first man and Christ is the second man in an archetypal sense, not an empirical sense. Here we see how Paul perceives Christ in relation to Adam and vice-versa. In his teachings, those who are in Adam (by default) belong to the natural, earthly old humanity that experiences condemnation and death, while those in Christ (by grace) belong to the spiritual, heavenly new humanity that experiences salvation and life. These are forensic and existential realities of our covenant relationship with God, thus the matter is theology, not biology.
There surely is an aspect to this in terms of depravity and regeneration, however taking that to mean that there were pre-adamic men and women who were sin-less is just a big stretch of your imagination.
When Paul uses the terms “in Adam” or “in Christ”—for example, “just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive”—he is referring to covenant union and federal headship. Just as we know countless people existed between the first and second man, so countless people could exist before the first man, because Paul was speaking theologically of the archetypal significance of Adam and Christ using covenantal language.
He is talking about the flesh and Spirit.
Man born with sinful flesh because of ADAM and not millions of people before Adam.

You drift far far away from the doctrine of depravity and that of a Spiritual rebirth and reconciliation to God.
So, the question of Cain’s wife actually can be solved by arguing for the existence of human populations outside of Eden—as I showed in my previous response.
What you attempted to show was definitely NOT convincing nor did it provide proof of millions of redeemed pre-adamic people.
Cain’s wife was unlikely one of his sisters. I had presented an argument from Scripture for why Cain's wife could not have been one of his sisters. Here, Stewart suggests an idea held by some (who?) which he thinks cannot be ruled out, that Adam and Eve had children prior to Cain, which Stewart called "older brothers and sisters of Cain." I think this actually is ruled out, given the facts of (a) the nature of Eve’s reaction to the birth of Cain and (b) the explicit statement that their other sons and daughters came after Seth.
Explicit? Where? Why not reference it?
.... snip
I put it to you that you are removing God from creation and you are trying to nullify creation in favor of an unbiblical evolutionary view. You are trying to "create" a scenario wherein all unbelievers can justify their unbelief.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

You are trying your very best to say these things have not been made by God but rather by chance and without a designer.
I will leave you to your false belief system and you trying to justify such.
 
@DialecticSkeptic and @Manfred have either of you read John H Walton's Lost World of Adam & Eve, and William Lane Craig's recent book on the Historical Adam? And if so wondering your thoughts. I've read the first book, but not Craig's yet.
 
@TB2

John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One (2009)​

I have read the following three books authored by John H. Walton and in this order: (1) The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2009), (2) Genesis 1 and Ancient Cosmology (Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 2011), and (3) The Lost World of Adam and Eve: Genesis 2–3 and the Human Origins Debate (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2015).

I was in a weird place about eight or nine years ago. I had become convinced that young-earth creationism was an incorrect interpretation of Genesis, but my reasons for rejecting old-earth creationist interpretations continued to hold (both the Day-Age view and the Gap view). So, I was in a holding pattern of sorts for a long time, with no idea how to understand the creation account.

I was beginning to lean toward the Framework view as espoused by Meredith G. Kline, a theological hero of mine, but only slightly because something seemed not-quite-right with that view, too. It was around this the time that Amazon recommended The Lost World of Genesis One to me, as I was browsing through some vaguely related material. That was an attention-getting title, so kudos to whichever editor came up with that.

Anyhow, I devoured that book in one sitting because I was absolutely fascinated by everything he was saying—because he was making points that I had arrived at independently through my own private studies (such as rejecting the notion of the supernatural as unbiblical, indefensible, and unhelpful). But what really grabbed my attention was his argument that, essentially, creationists have not provided a literal interpretation of Genesis. It barely qualifies as an interpretation at all. (This is not what he said but rather my summation thereof.) Creationists make a lot of noise about interpreting Genesis literally but the stark reality is that they don't. That was a shocking wake-up call for me, as a creationist.

Did God create the world in six 24-hour days? Never mind how long the days were, the more important and more relevant question regards the meaning of "create." You see, the most basic core of the creationist argument turns out to be an assumption imposed on the text, which therefore cannot be called an interpretation by any stretch of the imagination, much less a literal one. They believe that, in Genesis, God creating stuff was about bringing it into material existence (i.e., constituted by matter and energy)—light, sky, land, plants and animals, and mankind. That reflects our modern ontological categories, but is that what it meant for the original author and audience? Did they share our view?

It turns out that this question is one that we creationists have never asked. We just assumed they did and imposed that assumption on the text—and THEN delved into arguments about whether "yom" refers to 24-hour days or indefinite ages and so forth. But running with an assumption imposed on the text is not a literal interpretation—it's not an interpretation at all, period. It doesn't even ask the question, much less attempt an answer. In fact, it is a failure to even recognize that a question should be asked here.

So, I thought this book was ground-breaking and it certainly convinced me. When only one side is making an exegetical argument while everyone else leans hard into eisegesis, it's not a difficult choice for me. But the case that he was making (vis-a-vis the cosmic temple) dovetailed very nicely with the view presented by Gregory K. Beale in The Temple and the Church's Mission: A Biblical Theology of the Dwelling Place of God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2004) and Meredith G. Kline, Kingdom Prologue: Genesis Foundations for a Covenantal Worldview (Eugene, OR: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 2006). All of that taken together with a Reformed covenant theology and a redemptive-historical hermeneutic has powerfully shaped my biblical world-view.

William Lane Craig, In Quest of the Historical Adam (2021).​

Although I possess a copy of this book by Craig, I haven't yet opened it. I am already familiar with what he's going to argue in there and I already flatly reject it—so I'm not in a hurry to read it. (Craig will argue that Adam and Eve were historical people and the progenitors of the human race, but lived over 750,000 years ago and were members of the archaic species Homo heidelbergensis.) I will read it eventually, I know, but mostly because I want to know how he deals with the fact that the stories involving Adam and Eve and their immediate descendants involve things like domesticated animals, agriculture, metalwork, walled cities, and more, things for which the earliest evidence dates from 15,000 years ago.

An alternative book that I would highly recommend to you, one which was equally groundbreaking and influencial, is S. Joshua Swamidass, The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2019). He makes a solid case for those who want to maintain that (a) Adam and Eve were real people (b) who were created de novo by God (c) roughly 6,000 years and (d) were the genealogical ancestors of everyone. They were not the first humans, but then nothing about a, b, c, and d above requires them to be. (I don't know whether that's his own view or not, but he lays out an argument for those who do hold it.)
 
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