Adam's Sin Imputed To Mankind

[Arial]

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

This scripture is clearly saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us. And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given.There has always been law by God's very character and we have always been lawbreakers. People were put to death for sin period, not just for breaking the covenant law.

Does that mean we are condemned for Adam's sin?

There are two things in play here. The imputed sin of Adam and original sin.

The imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam as the federal head of mankind because of what he did, his sin. It is external.


Original sin refers to what Adam's sin, the first sin, caused. It is internal and becomes a part of who we are. Sinners.

Death reigned over all mankind through Adam----imputed sin---.
We all personally deserve God's wrath because of our own sins---original sin.

So we come to our sins imputed to Christ on the cross. 1 Peter 2:24 He HImself bore our sins in His body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

As incarnate, in His flesh as one of us, He set us free from our imputed sin of Adam. Our external position before God.

As bearing our sins and taking their just punishment He paid the debt for our original sin---internal.

As a result His righteousness is imputed to us---external---positional. We are no longer positionally in Adam with God but reconciled to Him. This presents a right now/not yet situation in which we still sometimes sin while we live in this flesh, for our nature has not changed, only our position.

We are now set aside as holy to God, in a position where sin can no longer condemn us to death and facing His wrath, (glory be to God), because of our position in Christ; we will arrive at our destination of glorification and actual sinlessness, when He returns. In the meantime, through the working of the Holy Spirit in us He sanctifies us more and more into the image of Christ, as we learn of Him through His word, and as we commune with Him in our prayers.

 

[CrowCross]

There are two things in play here. The imputed sin of Adam and original sin.

The imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam as the federal head of mankind because of what he did, his sin. It is external.


Original sin refers to what Adam's sin, the first sin, caused. It is internal and becomes a part of who we are. Sinners.

I don't disagree...I just don't understand it completely. That is what exactly happened to Adam when he fell. Or, what changed.

Whatever it was I believe it can be likened to what happen to Eve and childbirth. Apparently prior to the fall Eve would have had children with little or no pain....after the fall God changed Eve physically....from what to what??? I don't know. Was it a change to the birth canal? Was it a change to Eve's hips? We don't know.

But, the bible tells us in Gen 3:16 there was some sort of change.
16 To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.

This change...genetic...would now be part of Eves female progeny.

Prior to the fall Adam had no sin nature, or in other words a proclivity to sin. What exactly changed in Adams make-up....I don't know.
Was it a DNA genetic change? Was it a spiritual change? Was it some form of cognitive change? Was it a change in instinct? Perhaps someone here can shed some light on the subject and provide us with an answer.

Whatever happened doesn't change the fact humans now have a sin nature and need Christ Jesus.

 

[Arial]

Whatever it was I believe it can be likened to what happen to Eve and childbirth. Apparently prior to the fall Eve would have had children with little or no pain....after the fall God changed Eve physically....from what to what??? I don't know. Was it a change to the birth canal? Was it a change to Eve's hips? We don't know.

As you say we don't know and evidently we don't need to know or God would tell us. We do know that we were created to not die. So everything had to have been different than it was before the fall because not only man dies, but all living things. It suggests to me that every aspect of those things that are in (by God's creating) those things that pertain to our environment in the celestial bodies (sun, moon, planets and whatever else) were moved. This could have been by cosmic event but that even would have to come about through God's speaking it.

There are scriptures that speak of the morning stars singing together, and earth being watered by dew rather than rain. What are carnivores today eating only vegetation. People used to live hundreds of years, the age of normal death increasingly becoming less after the flood. So in whatever way, at whatever rate, everything changed. And remember to that all God had to do in order for childbearing to be painful is to say it would.

Perfect eternal life in the presence and fellowship of God is dependant upon God, and it was our position with Him at creation. That position was lost to all by Adam.

 

[Eleanor]

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
This scripture is clearly saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us. And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given.There has always been law by God's very character and we have always been lawbreakers. People were put to death for sin period, not just for breaking the covenant law.

There is no covenant law reported in Scripture until Abraham and circumcision.

Does that mean we are condemned for Adam's sin?

That is the apostolic teaching of the NT (Ro 5:12-14, 18).

Sin is law-breaking, and where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 5:13).
Between Adam and Moses all mankind died when there was no law to sin against, and therefore no personal sin charged against them to cause their death.
Between Adam and Moses all mankind died because of the sin of Adam charged (imputed) to them.

There are two things in play here. The imputed sin of Adam and original sin.

Is it two things in play, or one cause in play--Adam's sin, with two consequences?

And you aren't saying here that original sin is our only sin, that we don't also have our own personal sin to pay for, right?

The imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam as the federal head of mankind because of what he did, his sin. It is external.
Original sin refers to what Adam's sin, the first sin, caused. It is internal and becomes a part of who we are. Sinners.
Death reigned over all mankind through Adam----imputed sin---.
We all personally deserve God's wrath because of our own sins---original sin.

So we come to our sins imputed to Christ on the cross. 1 Peter 2:24 He HImself bore our sins in His body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

I have a pause here because, while the NT specifically presents "imputation" of both sin and righteousness to man (Ro 5:12-19, Ro 4:1-11),
it does not specifically present "imputation "of sin to Christ, it uses only the concept of the OT sacrificial system of "sin bearer," for animals cannot become sinners, they have no immortal spiritual nature.
The NT does not present "imputation" of our sin to Christ.

As incarnate, in His flesh as one of us, He set us free from our imputed sin of Adam. Our external position before God.

Did he not also set us free from our guilt debt of Adam's sin by also paying our debt for Adam's sin?

As bearing our sins and taking their just punishment He paid the debt for our original sin---internal.

However, the imputed sin of Adam of which we are guilty is the original sin of Adam .
The original sin of Adam causes our sinful nature, but it does not cause the guilt of our personal sin, which is by our own sinning, due to that nature.
Christ's punishment was not for our sinful nature due to original sin, it was for our actual sin due to original sin.

As a result His righteousness is imputed to us---external---positional.

In the NT justification is (forensic) righteousness (i.e.,"declared not guilty," Ro 4:1-3, 3:22, 28).
That is the (forensic) righteousness imputed to us by Christ's death, whose own righteousness qualifies him as a perfect sacrifice to remove our unrighteousness in the paying of our sin debt.
Our unrighteousness is removed by his righteousness.
It is in this removal of our unrighteousness by his own righteousness that he is our righteousness.
Our actual righteousness is through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19).

We are no longer positionally in Adam with God but reconciled to Him. This presents a right now/not yet situation in which we still sometimes sin while we live in this flesh, for our nature has not changed, only our position.

We are now set aside as holy to God, in a position where sin can no longer condemn us to death and facing His wrath, (glory be to God), because of our position in Christ; we will arrive at our destination of glorification and actual sinlessness, when He returns. In the meantime, through the working of the Holy Spirit in us He sanctifies us more and more into the image of Christ, as we learn of Him through His word, and as we commune with Him in our prayers.

 

[Eleanor]

Between Adam and Moses all mankind died because of the sin of Adam charged (imputed) to them.

Imputation is not just a matter of classification and bookkeeping.

 

[Arial]

There is no covenant law reported in Scripture until Abraham and circumcision.

I said "even before the covenant law was given." That is what Paul was saying, that all sinned without the law not just by breaking the SInai covenant law.

That is the apostolic teaching of the NT (Ro 5:12-14, 18).

Sin is law-breaking, and where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 5:13).
Between Adam and Moses all mankind died when there was no law to sin against, and therefore no personal sin charged against them to cause their death.
Between Adam and Moses all mankind died because of the sin of Adam charged (imputed) to them.

Eleanor why can you not see that is what I am saying? That is imputed sin---our position before God as sinners, as a race, as humans. Adam's sin being the cause of it. Humanity is condemned before God through Adam.

Is it two things in play, or one cause in play--Adam's sin, with two consequences?

It is two things both caused by Adam.

And you aren't saying here that original sin is our only sin, that we don't also have our own personal sin to pay for, right?

I am saying the opposite of that. Our personal sins are caused by original sin. We are born sinners. Humanity is sinners.

I have a pause here because, while the NT specifically presents "imputation" of both sin and righteousness to man (Ro 5:12-19, Ro 4:1-11),
it does not specifically present "imputation "of sin to Christ, it uses only the concept of the OT sacrificial system of "sin bearer," for animals cannot become sinners, they have no immortal spiritual nature.
The NT does not present "imputation" of our sin to Christ.

If our sins weren't imputed to Christ He would not be able to bear (carry) them away or pay their penalty. Adam is the federal head of all humanity. His sin is imputed to them as the federal head. Christ is the federal head of the redeemed, al who are in Him. That does not mean that Jesus became an actual sinner, anymore than in the case of Adam's sin being imputed to humanity means we commit the same sin he did or that our punishment is for his sin, not our own. They are our sins, and our sins are a result of being in Adam, being human. I explain this farther in my post so will see what you say about that and go from there.

The animal sacrifices did not cleanse the conscience of anyone. (Heb) It was a shadow of what was to come. Life for life. Blood shed. It is not the same thing.

Did he not also set us free from our guilt debt of Adam's sin by also paying our debt for Adam's sin?

He set us free from our position before God that is the imputed sin of Adam by coming as man---the second Adam. Adam broke the relationship between God and man. That is what is imputed to us as our federal head, that broken relationship. And we also by virtue of the first sin became sinners by nature. Jesus, second Adam reconciled the believer to God---new creation. No longer condemned by the imputed sin of Adam. And no longer condemned by our own sins. Imputed sin is positional. "This is who we are."

However, the imputed sin of Adam of which we are guilty is the original sin of Adam .
The original sin of Adam causes our sinful nature, but it does not cause the guilt of our personal sin, which is by our own sinning, due to that nature.
Christ's punishment was not for our sinful nature due to original sin, it was for our actual sin due to original sin.

We aren't guilty of the sin that Adam committed. We are guilty in Him. Yes the sin that Adam committed was the original sin, and caused or sinful nature. We are not guilty of the original sin---we weren't even there. Adam committed the original sin as the head of all mankind, and that is what is imputed to all his progeny through the ages, in his position before God. Fallen. External. The result of that original sin is that it changed our nature and now we all sin. Internal. Our actual sins had to be dealt with for justice to be satisfied. And the very fallen state of mankind had to be dealt with. Our position before God. Not just forgiven but also changed. No longer in Adam with that imputed sin of headship (external) and our own sins paid for (internal.)

Jesus dealt with both scenarios. We are reconciled as humans to God by being in Christ the new federal head, and His justice against our personal sins has been met in Christ.

In the NT justification is (forensic) righteousness (i.e.,"declared not guilty," Ro 4:1-3, 3:22, 28).
That is the (forensic) righteousness imputed to us by Christ's death, whose own righteousness qualifies him as a perfect sacrifice to remove our unrighteousness in the paying of our sin debt.
Our unrighteousness is removed by his righteousness.
It is in this removal of our unrighteousness by his own righteousness that he is our righteousness.

We may be saying the same thing here, not sure, but I will put it in my words, maybe you can tell.

Being declared righteous is a judicial ruling. And yes it is through faith in the person and work of Jesus. But this moves slightly off the straight on discussion of imputation. His righteousness is imputed to us in the same way as Adam's sin was imputed to us. We were declared sinners by imputation of Adam's sin. We are declared righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness. We were in the position of enemies of God, by imputation of Adam's sin, and enemies in action by our own sins. What Jesus did is turn that upside down and sideways. Now His righteousness is imputed to us which reconciles us to God, (what Adam destroyed) and actual righteousness grows by the work of the Holy Spirit in His word, and even our nature that still often yields to sin rather than to God, will someday be removed when we are glorified.

 

[Arial]

Between Adam and Moses all mankind died because of the sin of Adam charged (imputed) to them.

Imputation is not just a matter of classification and bookkeeping.

It is however what it is.

 

[Eleanor]

I said "even before the covenant law was given." That is what Paul was saying, that all sinned without the law not just by breaking the SInai covenant law.

Good for you.
I assumed you meant the law given in the garden was covenant law.

Eleanor why can you not see that is what I am saying? That is imputed sin---our position before God as sinners, as a race, as humans. Adam's sin being the cause of it. Humanity is condemned before God through Adam.
It is two things both caused by Adam.
I am saying the opposite of that. Our personal sins are caused by original sin. We are born sinners. Humanity is sinners.

If our sins weren't imputed to Christ He would not be able to bear (carry) them away or pay their penalty.

That is what the sin-bearing sacrifices did; i.e., paid their penalty, which was death.

Adam is the federal head of all humanity. His sin is imputed to them as the federal head. Christ is the federal head of the redeemed, all who are in Him. That does not mean that Jesus became an actual sinner, anymore than in the case of Adam's sin being imputed to humanity means we commit the same sin he did or that our punishment is for his sin, not our own.

Ro 5:12-14 shows that we are punished for Adam's sin imputed to us, for that was the only sin in the world (there being no law to sin against) which caused the death of all mankind between Adam and Moses.
It is the testimony of the NT in Ro 5:12-15 that mankind was punished with mortality for Adam's sin imputed to them.

They are our sins,

Yes, we also pay for those if, through faith, Christ doesn't pay for them in our place.

and our sins are a result of being in Adam, being human.

However, our fallen nature does not excuse us from our liability for sin.

I explain this farther in my post so will see what you say about that and go from there.

The animal sacrifices did not cleanse the conscience of anyone. (Heb)

They did not cleanse them within, remove their unrighteousness and its debt.
Correct, it just covered them in anticipation of the true sacrifice which would remove them.

It was a shadow of what was to come. Life for life. Blood shed. It is not the same thing.

The animal sacrifices covered sin (Ro 4:7) until sin's debt was paid on the cross (Ro 3:25).

He set us free from our position before God that is the imputed sin of Adam

And that position is the guilt of Adam for which we are liable, as were those between Adam and Moses who died because of that guilt.

by coming as man---the second Adam. Adam broke the relationship between God and man. That is what is imputed to us as our federal head, that broken relationship.

According to the NT, a heck of a lot more than a broken relationship is imputed to mankind.
Guilt is imputed and punishment of mortality is required for that imputed guilt, as we see in all mankind dying between Adam and Moses, when no personal sin was charged against them to cause their death (Ro 5:12-15).

And we also by virtue of the first sin became sinners by nature. Jesus, second Adam reconciled the believer to God---new creation.No longer condemned by the imputed sin of Adam. And no longer condemned by our own sins. Imputed sin is positional. "This is who we are."

(Con't below.)

 

[Eleanor]

Con't from above:

We aren't guilty of the sin that Adam committed. We are guilty in Him.
Yes, the sin that Adam committed was the original sin, and caused our sinful nature. We are not guilty of the original sin---we weren't even there.

All mankind between Adam and Moses were not charged with personal sin, the only cause of mortality (Ro 6:23), and yet all mankind between Adam and Moses died due to their guilt of sin (Ro 5:14-15); i.e., Adam's sin which was imputed to them.
That is the NT testimony of Ro 5:12-15.
BTW, do you object to being "guilty" of righteousness which is also imputed to you?

Adam committed the original sin as the head of all mankind, and that is what is imputed to all his progeny through the ages, in his position before God. Fallen. External. The result of that original sin is that it changed our nature and now we all sin. External. Our actual sins had to be dealt with for justice to be satisfied. And the very fallen state of mankind had to be dealt with. Our position before God.

You stated in the OP that "the imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam," and the guilt of which imputed sin Ro 5:12-15 demonstrates caused the death of all mankind between Adam and Moses.

Not just forgiven but also changed. No longer in Adam with that imputed sin of headship (external) and our own sins paid for (internal.)

However, the personal change is the work of the Holy Spirit within us after our guilt of the sin of Adam and our own sin has been dealt with on the cross.

Jesus dealt with both scenarios. We are reconciled as humans to God by being in Christ the new federal head, and His justice against our personal sins has been met in Christ.

Both scenarios simply being our guilt of sin--both of Adam's sin imputed to us and our own sin incurred.

We may be saying the same thing here, not sure, but I will put it in my words, maybe you can tell.

1) Being declared righteous is a judicial ruling. And yes it is through faith in the person and work of Jesus. But this moves slightly off the straight on discussion of imputation.

2) His righteousness is imputed to us in the same way as Adam's sin was imputed to us. We were declared sinners by imputation of Adam's sin. We are declared righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness.

3) We were in the position of enemies of God, by imputation of Adam's sin, and enemies in action by our own sins. What Jesus did is turn that upside down and sideways. Now His righteousness is imputed to us which reconciles us to God, (what Adam destroyed) and actual righteousness grows by the work of the Holy Spirit in His word, and even our nature that still often yields to sin rather than to God, will someday be removed when we are glorified.

1) Yes, justification is a forensic righteousness.

2) We were made sinners, which is more than just a declaration, it is an actuality, with real consequences; i.e., the sin has to be paid for.
All mankind died between Adam and Moses, because they were held guilty of the imputed sin of Adam, and not because of the guilt of their own sin charged against them, because there was none (sin being the only cause of mortality, Ro 6:23),
That is the testimony of the NT in Ro 5:12-15.

3) We were enemies of God because of our guilt of Adam's sin and the guilt of our own sin. Jesus paid the debt of that guilt, freeing us from all guilt and, thereby, reconciled us to God.
And now the Holy Spirit gives us power to increasingly control our sinful nature, by dying to sin as Christ died for sin.

 

[Arial]

All mankind between Adam and Moses were not charged with personal sin, the only cause of mortality (Ro 6:23), and yet all mankind between Adam and Moses died due to their guilt of sin (Ro 5:14-15); i.e., Adam's sin which was imputed to them.
That is the NT testimony of Ro 5:12-15.
BTW, do you object to being "guilty" of righteousness which is also imputed to you?

Truthfully, I don't think you understand what I mean, and what is given in the scriptures, by federal headship. Which would explain why you do not get what I am saying. I can tell you don't or you wouldn't be disagreeing with me. We aren't that far apart.

And I suppose it doesn't matter but even though I did understand federal headship to some degree, degrees of understanding available in it I have only understood recently. (Oddly enough, and I thank you, because of the debate we are having about it.) Which is why I started the OP. In getting that greater understanding it magnified and glorified even more (to me) what Christ has done for us.

But I guess, I am unable to express it in a way that is clear.

As to objecting to being "guilty" of righteousness which is imputed, there is no guilt in righteousness, but I think I know what you are getting at. I will say it again.

Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer in the same way that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind. Through the federal headship of Adam and the federal headship of the second, last Adam, Christ. That is why it is worded the way it is in Paul's writings.

Adam. First man. As he goes so will be all the descendants of Adam. Imputation. The whole human race is condemned before God by virtue of being in Adam. That is where we stand positionally before God. Fallen. Enemies.

The Savior had to take care of that issue on the cross. Therefore it is said that through faith in His person and work, we are no longer in Adam, positionally before God, but in Christ positionally. Imputation. Reconciliation.

We are counted sinners simply by being in Adam. His sinfulness imputed to us. And we have actual sins because we are sinners. Our actual sins must be dealt with on the cross. Jesus did that also for His death not only changed our position before God as justified, the sins we actually committed met God's justice against them in Christ.

In Adam we were sinners (imputation) who actually sinned. In Christ we are counted as righteous (imputation) before God. We are reconciled to Him. And though we are not yet actually perfectly righteous and will not be this side of heaven, the Holy Spirit is engaged in an ongoing, progressive sanctification in us. We still have our fallen nature.

On the cross, through His substitutionary death and His resurrection, He has destroyed the power of our personal sins to condemn us, and the power of the imputed sin of Adam that is the inheritance of all humanity. Because we are in Him now, and not in Adam.

 

[Eleanor]

Truthfully, I don't think you understand what I mean, and what is given in the scriptures, by federal headship. Which would explain why you do not get what I am saying. I can tell you don't or you wouldn't be disagreeing with me. We aren't that far apart.

And I suppose it doesn't matter but even though I did understand federal headship to some degree, degrees of understanding available in it I have only understood recently. (Oddly enough, and I thank you, because of the debate we are having about it.) Which is why I started the OP. In getting that greater understanding it magnified and glorified even more (to me) what Christ has done for us.

But I guess, I am unable to express it in a way that is clear.

Clarity is not the issue. Substance is the issue.

For we are more than positional in the imputation of Adam's sin (unless the following is what is meant by "positional").

We are actually held guilty and under the consequences of that actual guilt, as demonstrated in Ro 5:12-15
where all mankind died between Adam and Moses because of the guilt of Adam's imputed sin,
they having no sin of their own charged against them to cause their mortality.

Now if you can can say that you are unequivocally in agreement with mine here, then we are in agreement.
If you have equivocations, then we are not in agreement.

Yes or no?

 

[Arial]

We are actually held guilty and under the consequences of that actual guilt,

We are also held guilty in our relationship before God by being born IN ADAM. And we are guilty of actual sins. BOTH.
positional

adjective​

1. Of or pertaining to position.
2. Relating to the position of something.

We are in the position we are in in our relationship/relation to God by virtue of Adam's sin. We cannot take ourselves out of that position anymore that we can atone for our own sins. Mankind as a species must be reconciled to God. We are enimies.

where all mankind died between Adam and Moses because of the guilt of Adam's imputed sin,

Paul is saying that all are accountable to God as His image bearers, His creation, with or without the law of Moses. It is the imputed sin of Adam that brings death to all. Mankind through Adam is a sinful being. But you can bet they sinned and paid for those sins---the result of Adam's sin.

they having no sin of their own charged against them to cause their mortality.

Death itself is a result of the imputed (counted as) sin of Adam. And it didn't just come to humans but to all life forms. So yes in that sense. But Adam's sin changed their nature into a sinful nature so yes they did sin and they were punished for those sins.

Clarity is not the issue. Substance is the issue.

How can there be substance without clarity?

 

[Arial]

Now if you can can say that you are unequivocally in agreement with mine here, then we are in agreement.
If you have equivocations, then we are not in agreement.

We don't have to agree. I don't understand why you can give on credence to what I am saying, but only insist I am wrong.

Imputed sin of Adam is external. That is who we are as humans before a holy God. All of us.
What follows that is the change in our nature. Original sin=the result IN us. Internal. We sin actual sins. Both are true. We are punished for our sins unless we come to faith in Christ. Both imputed sin and actual sins are dealt with on the cross. How powerful and glorious is that!? It is an opportunity to see even more of what He was doing "behind the scenes" so to speak.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe I hear Eleanor saying that prior to the law being given we are guilty of Adams sin.
I also hear Arial saying the same thing.

BUT....

I believe I also hear Eleanor saying when the law came to be the guilt for Adams sin went away and we are now responsible for our own sin.
I believe I hear Arial saying that we are guilty of Adams sin even after the law was established and it continues until today. We are also responsible for our own sins.

Am I close?

 

[EarlyActs]

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

This scripture is clearly saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us. And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given.There has always been law by God's very character and we have always been lawbreakers. People were put to death for sin period, not just for breaking the covenant law.

Does that mean we are condemned for Adam's sin?

There are two things in play here. The imputed sin of Adam and original sin.

The imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam as the federal head of mankind because of what he did, his sin. It is external.


Original sin refers to what Adam's sin, the first sin, caused. It is internal and becomes a part of who we are. Sinners.

Death reigned over all mankind through Adam----imputed sin---.
We all personally deserve God's wrath because of our own sins---original sin.

So we come to our sins imputed to Christ on the cross. 1 Peter 2:24 He HImself bore our sins in His body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

As incarnate, in His flesh as one of us, He set us free from our imputed sin of Adam. Our external position before God.

As bearing our sins and taking their just punishment He paid the debt for our original sin---internal.

As a result His righteousness is imputed to us---external---positional. We are no longer positionally in Adam with God but reconciled to Him. This presents a right now/not yet situation in which we still sometimes sin while we live in this flesh, for our nature has not changed, only our position.

We are now set aside as holy to God, in a position where sin can no longer condemn us to death and facing His wrath, (glory be to God), because of our position in Christ; we will arrive at our destination of glorification and actual sinlessness, when He returns. In the meantime, through the working of the Holy Spirit in us He sanctifies us more and more into the image of Christ, as we learn of Him through His word, and as we commune with Him in our prayers.

The classic use of imputation is from Ps 51 and David's own sin was being imputed to himself (he was begging God not to) because any imputed sin is debt. (I do not advise using the word position in theology unless you fully explain the 'finances' of heaven/theology!). Because of this example, I have myself avoided the 'position' stuff, and only refer to sin as debt or as an activity. Past vs present. There is no present activity we humans can do that deals with debt; that is from Christ. (I'm not talking about our neighbors complaints here).

Your last line is correct, transformation is about currently doing sin (ie, not doing it) and how the Spirit helps us purify ourselves. But not in a way that applies it like 'credit' to the past.

This debt concept is key and I suggest that even in 2 Cor 5 with the verb 'katangalego' (reconcile) that we think financially, because of the end verse of ch 5. (Notice that 'deposit' is already used in v5). Ie, 'the books need to be balanced.' And we are back to the matter of sin being imputed about our own sin.

 

[EarlyActs]

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned---for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

This scripture is clearly saying that Adam's sin is imputed to us. And all men are condemned by Adam's sin as all meet death even before the Mosaic covenant Law was given.There has always been law by God's very character and we have always been lawbreakers. People were put to death for sin period, not just for breaking the covenant law.

Does that mean we are condemned for Adam's sin?

There are two things in play here. The imputed sin of Adam and original sin.

The imputed sin refers to our position before God through Adam as the federal head of mankind because of what he did, his sin. It is external.


Original sin refers to what Adam's sin, the first sin, caused. It is internal and becomes a part of who we are. Sinners.

Death reigned over all mankind through Adam----imputed sin---.
We all personally deserve God's wrath because of our own sins---original sin.

So we come to our sins imputed to Christ on the cross. 1 Peter 2:24 He HImself bore our sins in His body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed.

As incarnate, in His flesh as one of us, He set us free from our imputed sin of Adam. Our external position before God.

As bearing our sins and taking their just punishment He paid the debt for our original sin---internal.

As a result His righteousness is imputed to us---external---positional. We are no longer positionally in Adam with God but reconciled to Him. This presents a right now/not yet situation in which we still sometimes sin while we live in this flesh, for our nature has not changed, only our position.

We are now set aside as holy to God, in a position where sin can no longer condemn us to death and facing His wrath, (glory be to God), because of our position in Christ; we will arrive at our destination of glorification and actual sinlessness, when He returns. In the meantime, through the working of the Holy Spirit in us He sanctifies us more and more into the image of Christ, as we learn of Him through His word, and as we commune with Him in our prayers.

This statement that sin isn't imputed when there isn't law is intriguing. Paul 'patches' that by showing that death reigned anyway from Adam to Moses.

It might be good to research 'through the Gospel you are justified from everything that you could not be justified from under the law' in Acts 13's sermon. This has the effect of a knock-out blow to the attempt to use the Law as a method for justification--because the only thing that can happen is further imputed sin (more debt!). Righteousness cannot be imputed from anything from the Law because there is only credit for a perfect peformance: "The man who does them will live by them" actually means: the man who does them perfectly will be justified; it ain't going to happen, but it sure winds up the Judaizer!

 

[Arial]

The classic use of imputation is from Ps 51 and David's own sin was being imputed to himself (he was begging God not to) because any imputed sin is debt. (I do not advise using the word position in theology unless you fully explain the 'finances' of heaven/theology!). Because of this example, I have myself avoided the 'position' stuff, and only refer to sin as debt or as an activity. Past vs present. There is no present activity we humans can do that deals with debt; that is from Christ. (I'm not talking about our neighbors complaints here).

I agree but the topic is Adam's sin being imputed to us and what that means, since we also have our own sins and must pay for them. We aren't paying for Adam's particular sin though it is through him that we became sinners.

I use the term position because it is Adam's sin that put all mankind in the position of sinner before God. That is what Adam's sin imputed to us means. The old saying we are not sinners because we sin but we sin because we are sinners. We assume the same position before a holy God that Adam and Eve did when they first sinned. Alienated from God. Enemies of God. That is what we are at birth. In seeing that it pulls the rug out from under any speculations as to whether any amount of goodness on our part will ever reconcile us to Him. We have to be reconciled to Him, changing our position before Him. So it isn't just our own sins that are being dealt with on the cross, but that imputed sin of Adam.

Thus it is said we are no longer IN Adam but IN Christ.

This debt concept is key and I suggest that even in 2 Cor 5 with the verb 'katangalego' (reconcile) that we think financially, because of the end verse of ch 5. (Notice that 'deposit' is already used in v5). Ie, 'the books need to be balanced.' And we are back to the matter of sin being imputed about our own sin.

When it comes to being reconciled to God, that applies to the personal debt we owe for our sins, being paid by Jesus as our substitute, satisfying God's justice against them. And equally it applies to not debt, but having the power of the imputation of Adam's sin removed from us. There is much in this to be sure. As it directly affects an individual, the payment for our personal debt by Jesus is what is focused on, and it is enough. And yet to discover the power in Jesus to have also for the believer and the multitudes and multitudes of those He did this for, completely broken those first chains that held us, those of the imputed sin of Adam, I find fascinating and pleasing, and it deepens my understanding of Him.

So sue me!

 

[EarlyActs]

I agree but the topic is Adam's sin being imputed to us and what that means, since we also have our own sins and must pay for them. We aren't paying for Adam's particular sin though it is through him that we became sinners.

I use the term position because it is Adam's sin that put all mankind in the position of sinner before God. That is what Adam's sin imputed to us means. The old saying we are not sinners because we sin but we sin because we are sinners. We assume the same position before a holy God that Adam and Eve did when they first sinned. Alienated from God. Enemies of God. That is what we are at birth. In seeing that it pulls the rug out from under any speculations as to whether any amount of goodness on our part will ever reconcile us to Him. We have to be reconciled to Him, changing our position before Him. So it isn't just our own sins that are being dealt with on the cross, but that imputed sin of Adam.

Thus it is said we are no longer IN Adam but IN Christ.

When it comes to being reconciled to God, that applies to the personal debt we owe for our sins, being paid by Jesus as our substitute, satisfying God's justice against them. And equally it applies to not debt, but having the power of the imputation of Adam's sin removed from us. There is much in this to be sure. As it directly affects an individual, the payment for our personal debt by Jesus is what is focused on, and it is enough. And yet to discover the power in Jesus to have also for the believer and the multitudes and multitudes of those He did this for, completely broken those first chains that held us, those of the imputed sin of Adam, I find fascinating and pleasing, and it deepens my understanding of Him.

So sue me!

But there is a reason why Paul said sin is not imputed without the Law. Notice he didn't say it was imputed any way, from Adam. He switches to 'death reigned' and repeats that in v17. But he does call it imputation down in v19.

I think the point is that, to the chagrin of Judaizer friends and enemies, the Law did not improve things, made them worse!. That would be hard for them to take!

How about status instead of position? Or it could be 'legal position.' This would match those hostage situations where 100 might be held, but all will suffer if just one makes a break. But if it is about debt anyway, then imputing is taking place.

 

[Eleanor]

We are also held guilty in our relationship before God by being born IN ADAM. And we are guilty of actual sins. BOTH.

There is no guilt by being born of Adam.
We inherit a fallen nature by being born of Adam, which nature is inclined to sin, but there is no guilt associated with that inherited nature in and of itself, only with its actions.
Rather, our guilt is associated with the sin we do as the result of that fallen nature, and for which sin we are personally liable because we personally do it.
So we are not personally liable/guilty of/for our fallen nature which we inherit,
we are guilty only of the sin we actually do because of our inherited fallen nature.

However, there is guilt with the imputation of Adam's sin to us,
and we are liable for its punishment.
That we are liable for its punishment is seen in the mortality of all those between Adam and Moses, who died even though they were charged with no sin and guilt of their own doing. They died because they were charged with the sin and guilt of Adam, for which they were held personally liable.

All mankind is born in the guilt and liability of Adam's sin. There are no exceptions (Ro 5:18),
which is why we are by nature (we are born with our nature) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

If you agree with the above without any equiovocations, then we are in agreement.
If you have equivocations, then we are not in agreement.

Yes or no?

adjective​

1. Of or pertaining to position.
2. Relating to the position of something.

We are in the position we are in in our relationship/relation to God by virtue of Adam's sin.
How can there be substance without clarity?

Substance constitutes the thing, clarity simply explains it, and does not affect its substance.

 

[Arial]

I believe I hear Eleanor saying that prior to the law being given we are guilty of Adams sin.
I also hear Arial saying the same thing.

BUT....

I believe I also hear Eleanor saying when the law came to be the guilt for Adams sin went away and we are now responsible for our own sin.
I believe I hear Arial saying that we are guilty of Adams sin even after the law was established and it continues until today. We are also responsible for our own sins.

Am I close?

Eleanor will need to answer for herself of course.

We aren't guilty of Adam's sin in the sense that is our sin. We have plenty of our own even before the law was given. As God's creation and made in His image and likeness, all humanity for all time is accountable to Him morally. Written law or no written law. And the standard is holy, perfectly righteous, as He is holy and righteous.

Adam disobeyed God. He as the first man, is the federal head of all humanity. That means Adam's sin alienated him from God (and yes @Eleanor it was a covenant broken.)Therefore all of humanity is alienated from God. Therefore all become sinners. People did commit moral sins against God prior to the law and they were credited to their account. But even if they hadn't committed sins (which is not possible) they were born in the position of being a sinner by the imputed sin of Adam.

We are all alienated from God, law or no law of Moses. Paul in Romans 5 was dealing with two groups of people. Jews and Gentiles. The first with the old covenant law, the Gentiles without God in the world in the covenant sense. All in the same boat. All alienated from God by the imputed sin of Adam. Man is fallen from grace in Adam. That is what reconciliation is all about and why it is called reconciliation. WHy we are said to be enemies of God.