Abortion - at what point does a baby have the right to life?

[Arial]

The Gospel refers to the four books, or Gospels, in the New Testament about the Life of Christ: Book of Matthew, Book of Mark, Book of Luke, and the Book of John.

Those are the Gospels. That is what they are called. The gospel however is not limited to those four books. It begins with Gen 3 and the curse on the serpent and the promise of a seed that would crush him and never once leaves the pages of Scripture. The gospel is the Redeemer redeems.

 

[Soul]

Of course not. I am saying prying into things that we are not given in Scripture belong to the secret things of God, and all our speculations are speculations, and should not be considered absolutes. God gives us all that we need to know about Himself, redemption, and doctrinal truths, for salvation, worship and godly living. And the Scripture is the only authority on those things. Everything said, written, taught, practiced by men must come from within the Bible as to its truthfulness and be in agreement with Scripture. The authority is not with men, but with God through the Scripture.

All I said was no one knows everything about anything. There is no end to learning the things of God in this life. That is how deep and wide and multifaceted He is.

Yet, you speak for Jesus by asserting that He doesn't dictate further revelation to any individual, despite such a statement not being found in any of the four Gospels, or Scripture in general, while being someone who believes that only what is found in Scripture is the truth.

Additionally, you say that I need to prove my belief about the soul using Scripture, the same source that you acknowledge doesn't contain everything about anything. What kind of proof from Scripture about the soul do you need, and can you provide similar proof for your own position about it?

 

[Soul]

Those are the Gospels. That is what they are called. The gospel however is not limited to those four books. It begins with Gen 3 and the curse on the serpent and the promise of a seed that would crush him and never once leaves the pages of Scripture. The gospel is the Redeemer redeems.

There's nothing about any of that in the definition of the word "gospel" regarding Christianity:

"Gospel

b capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ"

"Gospel, any of four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus Christ. Written, according to tradition, respectively by St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John (the four evangelists) [...]"

When referring to the Old and New Testament, that's called "Scripture."

Regarding the four Gospels of Christ, the dictations and visions that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus, and later published under the title The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels, meaning that the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus, in my belief. It's not another Gospel, in other words, it's not a fifth Gospel. There are four Gospels. There are four, and four there will remain. Understood in detail or left in their broad outlines, four and no more.

 

[Mr GLee]

There's nothing about any of that in the definition of the word "gospel" regarding Christianity:

"Gospel

b capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ"

"Gospel, any of four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus Christ. Written, according to tradition, respectively by St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John (the four evangelists) [...]"

The dictations and visions that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus, and later published under the title The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels of Christ, meaning that the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus, in my belief. It's not another Gospel, in other words, it's not a fifth Gospel. There are four Gospels. There are four, and four there will remain. Understood in detail or left in their broad outlines, four and no more.

It is easy to see .You are trying to add another gospel. Gospel = Good news .

Not the news of Mathew, Mark Luke or John. Simply oral tradition of dying mankind

“All scripture is inspired of God. . none by Mathew, Mark, Luke, or John, neither by Soul or Mr. G Lee.

 

[Arial]

There's nothing about any of that in the definition of the word "gospel" regarding Christianity:

"Gospel

b capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ"

"Gospel, any of four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus Christ. Written, according to tradition, respectively by St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John (the four evangelists) [...]"

When referring to the Old and New Testament, that's called "Scripture."

Regarding the four Gospels of Christ, the dictations and visions that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus, and later published under the title The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels, meaning that the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus, in my belief. It's not another Gospel, in other words, it's not a fifth Gospel. There are four Gospels. There are four, and four there will remain. Understood in detail or left in their broad outlines, four and no more.

Definition of 'Gospel'​

The word gospel is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word which meant "the story concerning God." In the New Testament the Greek word euaggelion, means "good news." It proclaims tidings of deliverance. The word sometimes stands for the record of the life of our Lord (Mark 1:1), embracing all His teachings, as in Acts 20:24. But the word "gospel" now has a peculiar use and describes primarily the message which Christianity announces. "Good news" is its significance. It means a gift from God. It is the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins and sonship with God restored through Christ. It means remission of sins and reconciliation with God. The gospel is not only a message of salvation but also the instrument through which the Holy Spirit works (Romans 1:16). Christianity.com

The Gospels refers to Matt Mark Luke John that tell the story of Jesus' life. And if we needed what was "lost" it would not have been lost. You see how teaching such as the addition of Valtoria's supposed dictation from Jesus, something the Pope declared as truly dictation from Jesus, sets the Pope above God? As though a mere man could do what God could not?

 

[Arial]

Yet, you speak for Jesus by asserting that He doesn't dictate further revelation to any individual, despite such a statement not being found in any of the four Gospels, or Scripture in general, while being someone who believes that only what is found in Scripture is the truth.

I wasn't speaking for Jesus when I said He doesn't dictate further revelation. I was speaking the truth of His actual word.

Rev 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city which are described in this book.

Prophecy Vs. Prophesy​

"Prophecy" is the noun, and "to prophesy" is the verb. To prophesy is simply to pronounce prophecy. Prophecy, at its most fundamental meaning, is “a message from God.” Hence, to prophesy is to declare a message from God.

Additionally, you say that I need to prove my belief about the soul using Scripture, the same source that you acknowledge doesn't contain everything about anything. What kind of proof from Scripture about the soul do you need, and can you provide similar proof for your own position about it?

I did not put forth a belief about the soul. I don't claim to know exactly what a soul is, only that we have a soul and that it is an integral part of who we are as individuals. This is made clear in Scripture. You do claim to know what the soul is and how we got that soul and that it was breathed into us at creation. This the Bible does not make clear, which is why I gave you the task of proving it by Scriptures----which you cannot do.

What the Bible does tell us is that God breathed life into the clay so that it was a living soul. Which, to be honest about it, would more likely be saying that Adam had a soul when he was formed of the dust, and God breathed life into him and then the soul was living----as was the entire man. In any case the Bible (God's word) tells us that He made man of the dust in His image and likeness and breathed life into him. There is no need to try and go farther than what we are given.

 

[Soul]

Definition of 'Gospel'​

The word gospel is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word which meant "the story concerning God." In the New Testament the Greek word euaggelion, means "good news." It proclaims tidings of deliverance. The word sometimes stands for the record of the life of our Lord (Mark 1:1), embracing all His teachings, as in Acts 20:24. But the word "gospel" now has a peculiar use and describes primarily the message which Christianity announces. "Good news" is its significance. It means a gift from God. It is the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins and sonship with God restored through Christ. It means remission of sins and reconciliation with God. The gospel is not only a message of salvation but also the instrument through which the Holy Spirit works (Romans 1:16). Christianity.com

The Gospels refers to Matt Mark Luke John that tell the story of Jesus' life. And if we needed what was "lost" it would not have been lost. You see how teaching such as the addition of Valtoria's supposed dictation from Jesus, something the Pope declared as truly dictation from Jesus, sets the Pope above God? As though a mere man could do what God could not?

That article and your words, "The Gospels refers to Matt Mark Luke John that tell the story of Jesus' life," confirms what I've been saying, which is that the Gospel refers to the four Gospels of Christ (Jesus's life and teachings). The dictations and visions that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus, and later published under the title The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels, meaning that the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus, in my belief. It's not another Gospel, in other words, it's not a fifth Gospel. There are four Gospels. There are four, and four there will remain. Understood in detail or left in their broad outlines, four and no more.

I wasn't speaking for Jesus when I said He doesn't dictate further revelation. I was speaking the truth of His actual word.

Rev 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city which are described in this book.

To quote Jesus, in my belief: "Further: if you object that the revelation was closed with the last Apostle, and there was nothing further to add, because the same Apostle says in Revelation: "If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him every plague mentioned in the book" (22:18) and that can be understood for all the Revelation, the last completion of which is the Revelation by John, I reply to you that with this work no addition was made to revelation, but only the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in.

And if I wanted to take pleasure in restoring the picture of My Divine Charity as a restorer of mosaics does replacing the tesserae damaged or missing, reinstating the mosaic in its complete beauty, and I have decided to do it in this century in which mankind is hurling itself towards the Abyss of darkness and horror, can you forbid Me from doing so? Can you perhaps say that you do not need it, you whose spirits are dull, weak, deaf to lights, voices and invitations from Above?

You ought really to bless Me for increasing with new lights the light that you have and that is no longer sufficient for you to "see" your Savior. To see the Way, the Truth and the Life, and feel that spiritual emotion of the just of My time rise in you, attaining through this knowledge a renewal of your spirits in love, that would be your salvation, because it is an ascent towards perfection.

I do not say you are "dead", but sleeping, drowsy. Like plants during their winter sleep. The divine Sun gives you its refulgence. Awake and bless the Sun that gives you itself, receive it with joy that It may warm you, from the surface to deep inside you, it may rouse you and cover you with flowers and fruits.

Rise. Come to My Gift." (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. V)

You do claim to know what the soul is and how we got that soul and that it was breathed into us at creation. This the Bible does not make clear, which is why I gave you the task of proving it by Scriptures----which you cannot do.

In Gen. 1:26, we read, "Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth."

In Gen. 2:7, we read, "God formed the man of dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life" (Gen. 2:7). What are bones? A proof of the power of God Who made man with dust, but nothing else. The act of having "breathed the breath of life upon" indicates giving something that makes man who he is: a creature bearing the image and likeness of God.

God is a Spirit (Jn. 4:24), and thus "the breath of life" is a soul (spirit): His image, that He gives to each man when He is created. The soul of man (spirit) within him has the likenesses, or characteristics, of Him Who creates it. It's therefore intelligent, spiritual, free, immortal, and so on, like the Father Who created it. After our physical body dies, our soul (spirit) remains alive, as it's immortal, and when our physical body and spiritual soul rejoin together, we will either live in eternal life (Heaven), or live in eternal death (Hell).

Therefore, again, as shown above, Scripture gives us what the "breath of life," or "soul," is, and the by whom, to whom, the why, and when the soul is given. In The Poem of the Man-God, we learn from Jesus a deeper understanding of the soul, which isn't found in Scripture, and we agree that Scripture doesn't contain everything about anything.

 

[Arial]

That article and your words, "The Gospels refers to Matt Mark Luke John that tell the story of Jesus' life, confirms what I've been saying, which is that the Gospel refers to the four Gospels of Christ (Jesus's life and teachings). The dictations and visions that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus, and later published under the title The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels, meaning that the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus, in my belief. It's not another Gospel, in other words, it's not a fifth Gospel. There are four Gospels. There are four, and four there will remain. Understood in detail or left in their broad outlines, four and no more.

Yes there are four Gospels. But what is the gospel? And what in God's name makes you think that we need more than what God has given us? What He determined should be in His word iow.

To quote Jesus, in my belief: "Further: if you object that the revelation was closed with the last Apostle, and there was nothing further to add, because the same Apostle says in Revelation: "If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him every plague mentioned in the book" (22:18) and that can be understood for all the Revelation, the last completion of which is the Revelation by John, I reply to you that with this work no addition was made to revelation, but only the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in.

How convenient for the Catholic church. But it is sadly mistaken both as to those words above being the words of Jesus (blasphemy!!) and that those words only apply to the book of Revelation. Prophecy is the words of God and the whole Bible is the word of God.

There is no talking to a Catholic about it. They apparently do not absorb anything that someone posts that is outside of THEIR word. Not even the statement that I will now make. It should be alarming that it is THEIR word they believe over and above God's word. And I say they do not absorb anything said in opposition to THEIR word, because never is any of it ever considered in their responses. They simply reply according to RCC dictate.

So audios, so long, see ya around.

 

[Soul]

Yes there are four Gospels. But what is the gospel? And what in God's name makes you think that we need more than what God has given us? What He determined should be in His word iow.

But it is sadly mistaken both as to those words above being the words of Jesus (blasphemy!!) and that those words only apply to the book of Revelation. Prophecy is the words of God and the whole Bible is the word of God.

The Gospel is what I, your article, you, and every other Christian understand it to be: the four Gospels of Christ (Jesus's life and teachings).

The dictations and visions that Maria Valtorta received from Jesus, and later published under the title The Poem of the Man-God, is an expansion of the four Gospels, meaning that the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in by Jesus, in my belief. It's not another Gospel, in other words, it's not a fifth Gospel. There are four Gospels. There are four, and four there will remain. Understood in detail or left in their broad outlines, four and no more. In the excerpt I quoted, Jesus said that Rev. 22:18 doesn't apply to just the Book of Revelation, but all revelation, which is why He said, "[...] with this work [The Poem of the Man-God] no addition was made to revelation, but only the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will, were filled in." See post #2 here for how Jesus, not the Pope, shows that Maria Valtorta truly took dictations and received visions from Him.

God is the Word. He speaks where He wants to. He speaks to whomever He wants to. He speaks the way He wants to. He has no limitations.

There is no talking to a Catholic about it. They apparently do not absorb anything that someone posts that is outside of THEIR word. Not even the statement that I will now make. It should be alarming that it is THEIR word they believe over and above God's word. And I say they do not absorb anything said in opposition to THEIR word, because never is any of it ever considered in their responses. They simply reply according to RCC dictate.

So audios, so long, see ya around.

I believe I addressed all that you said to me, so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Arial]

I believe I addressed all that you said to me, so I don't know what you're talking about.

I rest my case. The one made in my previous post.

 

[Soul]

I rest my case. The one made in my previous post.

You haven't though.

 

[Arial]

You haven't though.

Now you are just being argumentative. When someone says they are done with the conversation---respect that.

 

[Soul]

Now you are just being argumentative. When someone says they are done with the conversation---respect that.

I do respect that, which is why I didn't continue talking about the topics of the Gospels and soul with you. Thank you for the discussion.

 

[makesends]

The Gospel is what I, your article, you, and every other Christian understand it to be: the four Gospels of Christ (Jesus's life and teachings).

Not at all, though I don't really think what I say will enlighten you since what @Arial said didn't do it. But just to be clear, since you insist on continuing with your simplistic use of the word, "Gospel":


1. "Gospel" is the good news that God gave us, and that is presented in the 4 Gospels and in the whole of Scripture.

2. "A Gospel" can refer to one of the four Gospels, or "a Gospel" also can be anything supposedly about how to be saved. Thus, Paul says that if anyone presents "a Gospel" other than what "we" (Paul, et al apostles) have preached, let him be Anathema. "A Gospel" may or may not be the true Gospel.

3. The term, "The Gospel", can refer to, for example, "The Gospel of Matthew", or one of the others, or it can refer to the truth as put forth both in the four Gospels, and in the whole of Scripture. "The Gospel" is the truth, and is not subject to anyone's interpretation or opinion, and, under penalty of God's condemnation, not in any supposed revelation subsequent to the completed Canon.

 

[Soul]

Not at all, though I don't really think what I say will enlighten you since what @Arial said didn't do it. But just to be clear, since you insist on continuing with your simplistic use of the word, "Gospel":


1. "Gospel" is the good news that God gave us, and that is presented in the 4 Gospels and in the whole of Scripture.

2. "A Gospel" can refer to one of the four Gospels, or "a Gospel" also can be anything supposedly about how to be saved. Thus, Paul says that if anyone presents "a Gospel" other than what "we" (Paul, et al apostles) have preached, let him be Anathema. "A Gospel" may or may not be the true Gospel.

3. The term, "The Gospel", can refer to, for example, "The Gospel of Matthew", or one of the others, or it can refer to the truth as put forth both in the four Gospels, and in the whole of Scripture. "The Gospel" is the truth, and is not subject to anyone's interpretation or opinion, and, under penalty of God's condemnation, not in any supposed revelation subsequent to the completed Canon.

The Gospel is the four Gospels of Christ (Jesus's life and teachings):

"Gospel

b capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ"

"Gospel, any of four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus Christ. Written, according to tradition, respectively by St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John (the four evangelists) [...]"

God is the Word. He speaks where He wants to. He speaks to whomever He wants to. He speaks the way He wants to. He has no limitations.

 

[ChristB4us]

I disagree.

I know what I have seen in other Christian forums like CARM.

What I have observed is that the conflict between those who argue over a text is usually not about translating but rather interpreting the text, which implicates authority. It is why the Roman Catholic Church was so opposed to the scriptures being translated into the common tongue, or why Arminians cannot agree with the exegesis of Reformed scholars. When it comes to straight translation of the Greek into English, there is very little disagreement at all. The disagreements arise when we interpret its meaning and application—the biblical exegesis—and it nearly always comes down to authority. The exegesis cannot agree when there is a conflict of authority.

For example, practically everyone can agree that τὴν ψυχήν μου τίθημι ὑπὲρ τῶν προβάτων translates into English as "I lay down my life for the sheep" (John 10:15). But the interpretation of this, what it means, the exegesis, that's another matter entirely.

Okay. Let us test that knowledge of yours for how you apply His words to mean.

What does John 16:13 says in all Bible versions or if you prefer, how you apply John 16:13 to mean?

Then look at how some modern Bibles will say the opposite when it comes to Romans 8:26-27 whereas the KJV maintains that truth as the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings out loud..

john 16:13 & romans 8:26-27 KJV - NIV - ASV - NASB - ESV

Then maybe you will see why wisdom is needed from the Lord to see the truth in His words, even when applying it rightly as it is written.

 

[makesends]

What does John 16:13 says in all Bible versions or if you prefer, how you apply John 16:13 to mean?

Then look at how some modern Bibles will say the opposite when it comes to Romans 8:26-27 whereas the KJV maintains that truth as the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings out loud..

john 16:13 & romans 8:26-27 KJV - NIV - ASV - NASB - ESV

Then maybe you will see why wisdom is needed from the Lord to see the truth in His words, even when applying it rightly as it is written.

It seems reasonable to think, that if you interpret Romans 8:26-27, even in the KJV, to mean that the Holy Spirit CANNOT "utter his own groanings out loud" then the rest of your uses of scripture are suspect. It is also worth noting that you are conflating two operations in mentioning "applying it rightly as it is written". —What does that phrase even mean?

I'm thinking you need "to see why wisdom is needed from the Lord to see the truth in His words", instead of your focus and bias applied.

 

[ChristB4us]

It seems reasonable to think, that if you interpret Romans 8:26-27, even in the KJV, to mean that the Holy Spirit CANNOT "utter his own groanings out loud" then the rest of your uses of scripture are suspect. It is also worth noting that you are conflating two operations in mentioning "applying it rightly as it is written". —What does that phrase even mean?

I'm thinking you need "to see why wisdom is needed from the Lord to see the truth in His words", instead of your focus and bias applied.

You did not bother to look at the link comparing the KJV with other Bible versions regarding John 16:13, & Romans 8:26-27 did you?

John 16:13;Romans 8:26-27 KJV,NIV,ASV,NASB1995,ESV - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, - Bible Gateway

You have it backwards when all Bible versions in John 16:13 testifies that the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak from Himself but speaks what He hears and therefore He cannot utter His own groanings out loud which proves the KJV is maintaining the truth in His words for Romans 8:26-27 because of John 16:13.

 

[makesends]

You did not bother to look at the link comparing the KJV with other Bible versions regarding John 16:13, & Romans 8:26-27 did you?

John 16:13;Romans 8:26-27 KJV,NIV,ASV,NASB1995,ESV - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, - Bible Gateway

Ha! No, I used my own fingers to search the difference out. And I see no substantive difference, unless when I try to interpret the KJV according to your mindset.

You have it backwards when all Bible versions in John 16:13 testifies that the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak from Himself but speaks what He hears and therefore He cannot utter His own groanings out loud which proves the KJV is maintaining the truth in His words for Romans 8:26-27 because of John 16:13.

You have jumped a few logical steps. You said, "the KJV maintains that truth as the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings out loud.." But the KJV doesn't maintain that. Now I hear your logic that since "the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak from Himself but speaks what He hears... ...therefore He cannot utter His own groanings out loud." Maybe you can explain how that logic follows. I can't.

It doesn't say that he cannot speak from Himself, but it does say that he prays for us with "groanings which cannot be uttered". That could mean anything from, as one version puts it, "groanings that words cannot express", or, "groanings too deep for words", to, "groanings that WE are unable to express or understand". But your logic even goes worse than that, to claim that "all Bible versions in John 16:13 testifies that the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak from Himself". I can't say that I read them all, but I read a bunch of them, and none of those that I read said that he CANNOT speak from himself, but that he (variously) "will not" or "shall not". Thus, you are wrong that all Bible versions in John 16:13 testify that the Holy Spirit cannot speak from Himself.

Your assumption seems to be that you can add your notions to Scripture to produce whatever you consider valid reasoning.

 

[Josheb]

Whether they label themselves pro-life or pro-choice, most people seem to agree that babies have a right to live, and that women have the right to choose their own healthcare. And most people agree that the right to live is the more important of the two.

The real disagreement is - at what point does the baby have that right? Is it at...

* Conception - the moment the egg is fertilized.

* Brain Activity (4-6 weeks) - an adult who is hospitalized is typically declared dead when they no longer have measurable brain activity. If that is so, then perhaps a person should be declared alive when they do have measurable brain activity.

* Viability (22-24 weeks) - viability is the point during pregnancy where the baby would likely survive if it were born, given reasonable medical care. In most places, abortions are prohibited after the point of viability.

* Birth - the point at which the baby draws its first breath.

So, where do you draw that line? I tend to go for the 2nd one.

-Jarrod

Those supporting abortion will challenge the op's use of the word "baby" when referring to the fetus. I therefore recommend using the phrase "human life." A zygote (a fertilized egg) can be identified as human immediately upon creation (no religious connotation intended). A sperm permeates an ovum and fertilizes the egg and it becomes a zygote. When it's a human sperm and ovum then it is a human zygote, a human life. The question then becomes,

"At what point does the human life have a right to life?"

And that should be self-answering. The answer is, "From the moment of conception." But cries of question begging will ensue because it's impossible to have an intelligent, rational conversation with those who support killing babies . The fact is, under otherwise normal conditions that zygote will inevitably grow into a fully cognizant human being so what we're debating is at what point is it okay to prevent conceived human life from reaching its normal potential for human life?